Invention Set Origin Questions

[Vedic70]

I'm new so I'd appreciate some insight. 

 

For IOs that are good for everyone is there a reason to not take any of the following singular IOs (providing they can be slotted) ? 

 

Miracle (15% recovery)

Numina's Convalescence (10% Recovery and 20% Regen) 

Preventive Medicine (Chance for + Absorb)

Luck of the Gambler (up to 5 global recharge ones if enough powers are available)

Shield Wall (5% Resist All) 

Unbreakable Guard (7.5% max HP)

Aegis (5% Psi Res/ 20% Mez Res)

Gladiator's Armor (3% Def (All)/TP Prot)

Performance Shifter (Chance for Endurance)

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but budget and slot allocation priorities notwithstanding, would these enhancements help with every type of build?

 

As well, I read that set enhancements can be boosted. How would that work with the above IOs? Would it boost, for example, the Recovery and Regeneration percentage of Numina's Convalescence and/or the global recharge of Luck of the Gambler? 

 

Thanks in advance for any replies 

[MoonSheep]

yeah it’s generally useful to slot a fair amount of those. the steadfast 3% def is also a useful one if you’re building for defence, the panacea proc also useful. i’ve linked a thread below where they were recently discussed

 

the values of the enhancements can’t be changed, e.g the 5% res on shield wall will always be 5%

 

edit 1: @Vedic70 sorry, here’s the link: 

 

edit 2: @shortguy on indom the value of unique procs don’t change with set level, they will always be the same, go check out a lvl 25 LoTG +rech on the auction house compared to a lvl 50 one

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by MoonSheep

[Championess]

3 hours ago, Vedic70 said:

Miracle (15% recovery)

Numina's Convalescence (10% Recovery and 20% Regen) 

Preventive Medicine (Chance for + Absorb)

Luck of the Gambler (up to 5 global recharge ones if enough powers are available)

Shield Wall (5% Resist All) 

Unbreakable Guard (7.5% max HP)

Aegis (5% Psi Res/ 20% Mez Res)

Gladiator's Armor (3% Def (All)/TP Prot)

Performance Shifter (Chance for Endurance)

 

I don't usually have room for all those heal uniques.  I like Panacea the most out of that, Miracle and Numina.  It seems to beat out the others for endurance plus also the heal.  Then yeah Preventative I look to use.

 

Just about all the rest I'd use.  Although instead of Aegis I'd substitute in the Steadfast unique.  And maybe 2-3 knockback resist IOs if you're on a squishy with little protection from that CC.

Edited Wednesday at 10:45 PM by Championess

[biostem]

3 hours ago, Vedic70 said:

I'd appreciate some insight

IMO, there are 2 schools of thought regarding the IOs you mentioned;

 

1. They are crucial and you should make every reasonable effort to include powers where they can be slotted, as well as devoting the necessary enhancement slots where needed.

 

or

 

2. They are still very good, but concept and/or practicality should supersede any significant alteration to your character's overall functionality that may be required to fit them in.

 

Personally, I'd say I'm more in the latter group, but I can't say that I've never taken a power, especially as the character approaches 50, to fit in some of the more desirable IOs/Procs...

[Snarky]

The resists and mez protection are NICE.  But so are a bunch of other things those slots could go to.  Unless your build has “just tons of extra slots” (oof, not good) or are building up a melee Resistance based armor set i would not invest in that. The mez is great… if you are not giving up something better.  A good builder can almost always complete one more thing rather than go tandomly throwing on “cool stuff”

 

The endurance globals, excellent.  Unless….  Your toon has low/no end issues. Then… wasted slots

 

I think you are seeing the pattern to the critique i am offering by now.  Good luck. 

[shortguy on indom]

4 hours ago, Vedic70 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but budget and slot allocation priorities notwithstanding, would these enhancements help with every type of build?

• NO THEY WILL NOT.
• CHECK OUT THE ARCHETYPE  SUB-FORUM FOR IDEAS.
• WAS GETTING DISAPPOINTED IN YOU SNARK, THEN REDEEMED YO'SELF THERE.
• TOO GENERAL OF A QUESTION.

Edited Wednesday at 11:53 PM by shortguy on indom
added extra

[Vedic70]

2 hours ago, shortguy on indom said:

• NO THEY WILL NOT.
• CHECK OUT THE ARCHETYPE  SUB-FORUM FOR IDEAS.
• WAS GETTING DISAPPOINTED IN YOU SNARK, THEN REDEEMED YO'SELF THERE.
• TOO GENERAL OF A QUESTION.

If I were to have unlimited slots and budget and didn't have to worry about opportunity costs why wouldn't they help? 

 

To clarify, I know that this game has diminishing returns and some different interactions which is what I'm asking about (eg from what I've read one Performance Shifter in an auto endurance mod power is good but two in two auto endurance mod powers is wasted as the procs will synchronize upon entering a zone and only one will give a benefit). 

 

Is there any reason why that would apply to the mods I listed above or any reason that a blaster, for example and setting concepts and opportunity costs aside, would not benefit from having absorb? It would be more beneficial on a melee for sure but is there anything that make having any of the above not desirable or wasted on any archetype if they weren't concerned about opportunity costs?

Edited 22 hours ago by Vedic70
Clarify

[Psyonico]

The caveat is you don’t have unlimited slots.  Also, you don’t have unlimited power picks.

 

 Take the Luck of the Gambler def/global recharge for example ( which, btw, boosted would increase the defense value but not the global recharge) if you aren’t playing a toon with a power set that is heavy on defense powers (think rad armor vs Super Reflexes) you have to give up 5 power choices if you want to slot 5 of those IOs.

 

 Similarly, a Super reflex character has to give up 2 power picks and a pool choice (you only get 4) if they want to slot the two +defense unique.  Tough is the only power a SR character can slot those in.  A SR tank doesn’t need to take Weave, so it really is an opportunity cost.  An SR brute, scrapper, sentinel, or stalker is more likely to want to take weave, so it’s less opportunity cost for them.

 

Finally you only get (I think) 67 extra slots for a build.  If you choose to slot the Panacea and Miracle unique into health, for example, you’ve given up 1 of those 67 slots.  This means you can’t put that slot somewhere (potentially) more useful.

 

A Kin defender gets access to Transference at 22.  After that, they basically have no endurance issues.  Why waste 3 slots into Health for Panacea/Miracle/Numina’s/Preventative Medicine when all they really need is the Preventative Medicine.  Only the Panacea would exemplar down low enough for it to be useful when you don’t have Transference (ie: posi TF) but a kin defender generally won’t have endurance issues in a Posi TF anyway.

[Psyonico]

One other thing re: boosters

 

 if you ever plan on exemplaring a character, going with Attuned sets is better than boosting IOs.  An attuned IO keeps its set bonus down to -3 the set level or power pick. (So if you take a power at 30, you won’t keep the set bonuses at 20, even if the set minimum level is 20).

 

purple and PvP IOs don’t follow this rule, so it is generally best practice to slot those as not attuned/at level 50 and boost the ones you need to boost.  They’ll keep their set bonuses.

[Maelwys]

4 hours ago, Vedic70 said:

(eg from what I've read one Performance Shifter in an auto endurance mod power is good but two in two auto endurance mod powers is wasted as the procs will synchronize upon entering a zone and only one will give a benefit). 

 

Also, this bit is old info - the bug that prevented multiple Performance Shifter from all giving benefit simultaneously was fixed years ago.

 

@Psyonico is quite correct here in that whilst all those IOs are desirable and useful there is always an opportunity cost- you have to use up one of your precious enhancement slots on each of them. Many of them will be worth this tradeoff on virtually all builds, but I have plenty of characters which simply cannot fit a Panacea, a Miracle and a Numina (for example) so you need to think and prioritise. After meeting your immediate essential build requirements/goals in the most efficient way possible, then by all means use any leftover enhancement slots on unnecessary "would be nice" perks (like additional Mez resistance and surplus regeneration/recovery/recharge/etc)

[Maelwys]

Some further relevant reading:
 

 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Maelwys

[Scarlet Shocker]

A lot of your questions will be resolved by learning the game, what your playstyle is, what ATs and power sets you prefer and where you want to Min/Max or simply enjoy the game for casual fun.

 

As Statesman used to say back in the day; "Let experience guide you" which I thought was a pretty good strap line for a game based on XP gain.

 

I find I usually have some staples across the board, Numinas (but almost always paired with a Heal to get the regen benefit for the cost of one slot) and Performance Shifter, maybe a couple of LotGs and the +3% procs if possible.

 

But remember; nothing is essential. The game lore tells you that this game is built around SOs - which is almost true but I wouldn't want to try Incarnate level content with just SOs -- I think you need more for that. What is more important is to know your toon, it's strengths, weaknesses and how it actually works when you're at the keyboard. You have 1000 slots per shard. If you are struggling, go make something else and see how it compares then revisit.

 

There is no wrong answer here but if you're not having fun, then you might want to think hard about why before you spend inf and merits on slots because in my experience that's not gonna fix a toon you hate.

[Maelwys]

30 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

What is more important is to know your toon, it's strengths, weaknesses and how it actually works when you're at the keyboard.

 

This. 

 

And it's worth pointing out that there's no need to spend a long time and spend lots of imaginary money in order to try different builds and/or enhancement slotting combinations out:

 

 

[Snarky]

There are NEVER enough slots.  So talking about hypothetical where they are infinite….   
 

an example.  Compare toon builders to bodybuilders.   Each striving for perfection.  Toon builders get slots.  Body builders get calories.  Now imagine a new bodybuilder talking to guys doing it for years about “what if we had unlimited calories?”    WTF?   It is alien, just sounds crazy.

Edited 14 hours ago by Snarky

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

Now imagine a new bodybuilder talking to guys doing it for years about “what if we had unlimited calories?”

 

 

[Vedic70]

Thanks for the advice but there seems to be a miscommunication with some people. The point of the question isn't whether there are opportunity costs involved or not (there are of course but that's not relevant to what I'm asking). The question is if in a white room situation with infinite resources and slots would there be a reason to not take those IOs?  

 

They appear to grant a benefit to everyone and although some ATs would benefit more than others (eg absorb on a tank is more useful than absorb on a blaster) but, if being attacked, absorbing damage would still help a blaster. As I new I want to make sure I understand the mechanics of how these work. 

 

So, the question is do these IOs provide a useful benefit to everyone or is there something I'm overlooking? I understand that there are limited slots and something might fit a concept or mechanics better but I'm really just asking for a yes or no. Are the benefits provided by these IOs something useful for every AT or not?  

 

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Vedic70
Clarity

[Vedic70]

7 hours ago, Maelwys said:

 

Also, this bit is old info - the bug that prevented multiple Performance Shifter from all giving benefit simultaneously was fixed years ago.

 

@Psyonico is quite correct here in that whilst all those IOs are desirable and useful there is always an opportunity cost- you have to use up one of your precious enhancement slots on each of them. Many of them will be worth this tradeoff on virtually all builds, but I have plenty of characters which simply cannot fit a Panacea, a Miracle and a Numina (for example) so you need to think and prioritise. After meeting your immediate essential build requirements/goals in the most efficient way possible, then by all means use any leftover enhancement slots on unnecessary "would be nice" perks (like additional Mez resistance and surplus regeneration/recovery/recharge/etc)

Thanks so much for the links and info. So if I did have multiple Endurance Mod powers and wanted to slot a Performance Shifter in each one I would benefit from it? I'm not saying I want to as that would depend on specific circumstances and characters; I'm just asking is that possible?

Edited 10 hours ago by Vedic70
Clarify

[arcane]

I would have said yes to all a year or two ago. But now I only slot the 4 +res/+def procs in taunters. Don’t need any defensive stuff on my non-taunters. And sometimes I don’t have any place to put Unbreakable Guard.

 

ALL of my builds DO have:

Panacea/Numina/Preventive/Miracle Procs

Performance Shifter Proc

Celerity/Thrust/Launch Procs

LotG Proc(s)

Kismet Proc

Unbreakable Guard if slottable (but won’t go out of my way to pick up a res power just to mule it)

Edited 10 hours ago by arcane

[Snarky]

9 minutes ago, Vedic70 said:

Thanks for the advice but there seems to be a miscommunication with some people. The point of the question isn't whether there are opportunity costs involved or not (there are of course but that's not relevant to what I'm asking). The question is if in a white room situation with infinite resources and slots would there be a reason to not take those IOs?  

 

They appear to grant a benefit to everyone and although some ATs would benefit more than others (eg absorb on a tank is more useful than absorb on a blaster) but, if being attacked, absorbing damage would still help a blaster. As I new I want to make sure I understand the mechanics of how these work. 

 

So, the question is do these IOs provide a useful benefit to everyone or is there something I'm overlooking? I understand that there are limited slots and something might fit a concept or mechanics better but I'm really just asking for a yes or no. Are the benefits provided by these IOs something useful for every AT or not?  

 

 

oh yes, in that case, every one of these things adds a net positive.  take them all.

 

also, put every enhancement set with all set bonuses on your toon.  every single set, 5 times.  net benefit.  

 

[arcane]

14 minutes ago, Vedic70 said:

Thanks for the advice but there seems to be a miscommunication with some people. The point of the question isn't whether there are opportunity costs involved or not (there are of course but that's not relevant to what I'm asking). The question is if in a white room situation with infinite resources and slots would there be a reason to not take those IOs?  

 

They appear to grant a benefit to everyone and although some ATs would benefit more than others (eg absorb on a tank is more useful than absorb on a blaster) but, if being attacked, absorbing damage would still help a blaster. As I new I want to make sure I understand the mechanics of how these work. 

 

So, the question is do these IOs provide a useful benefit to everyone or is there something I'm overlooking? I understand that there are limited slots and something might fit a concept or mechanics better but I'm really just asking for a yes or no. Are the benefits provided by these IOs something useful for every AT or not?  

 

 

Yes, in an imaginary situation with infinite slots, there is zero reason to overlook any of the IO’s you mentioned. But yeah in reality you could have varying priorities.

[Maelwys]

13 minutes ago, Vedic70 said:

Thanks so much for the links and info. So if I did have multiple Endurance Mod powers and wanted to slot a Performance Shifter in each one I would benefit from it? I'm not saying I want to as that would depend on specific circumstances and characters; I'm just asking is that possible?

Yes:

 

[arcane]

13 minutes ago, Vedic70 said:

Thanks so much for the links and info. So if I did have multiple Endurance Mod powers and wanted to slot a Performance Shifter in each one I would benefit from it? I'm not saying I want to as that would depend on specific circumstances and characters; I'm just asking is that possible?

Yes and same goes for Power Transfer.

[MoonSheep]

30 minutes ago, Vedic70 said:

Thanks for the advice but there seems to be a miscommunication with some people. The point of the question isn't whether there are opportunity costs involved or not (there are of course but that's not relevant to what I'm asking). The question is if in a white room situation with infinite resources and slots would there be a reason to not take those IOs?  

 

They appear to grant a benefit to everyone and although some ATs would benefit more than others (eg absorb on a tank is more useful than absorb on a blaster) but, if being attacked, absorbing damage would still help a blaster. As I new I want to make sure I understand the mechanics of how these work. 

 

So, the question is do these IOs provide a useful benefit to everyone or is there something I'm overlooking? I understand that there are limited slots and something might fit a concept or mechanics better but I'm really just asking for a yes or no. Are the benefits provided by these IOs something useful for every AT or not?  

 

i don’t slot most of them on my kin, why would i want +regen, +recovery, chance for heal etc when i have transference and transfusion. likewise i don’t slot the defense or res procs on my dominator as i’m a chronic insp user and will always have a ton of purples on me

 

they are useful for most alts but you should identify a reason why you’re slotting them

[Snarky]

12 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i don’t slot most of them on my kin, why would i want +regen, +recovery, chance for heal etc when i have transference and transfusion. likewise i don’t slot the defense or res procs on my dominator as i’m a chronic insp user and will always have a ton of purples on me

 

they are useful for most alts but you should identify a reason why you’re slotting them

this information seems unnecessary.  the OP just wants to know if the specified enhancers add a benefit to a character...  period.

[Uun]

19 hours ago, Vedic70 said:

As well, I read that set enhancements can be boosted. How would that work with the above IOs? Would it boost, for example, the Recovery and Regeneration percentage of Numina's Convalescence and/or the global recharge of Luck of the Gambler? 

Didn't see this answered above. The effects granted by procs or globals can't be boosted so there's no reason to boost them. In fact, the attuned versions are usually better.

 

Globals are always on and don't require the power they're slotted in to be active. However, they stop working if you exemplar more than 3 levels below the level of the enhancement. Because of this, it's generally better to use attuned globals. The exceptions are Very Rare (purple) and PVP IOs, which are always active regardless of level.

 

Procs need to be slotted in an active power and usually have a 120s duration. This is why it's best to slot regen and recovery procs in an auto power or a toggle.  On the other hand, procs don't follow the -3 exemplar rule and work regardless of the level of the enhancement as long as the power they're slotted in is active.

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Invention_Origin_Enhancements#Globals