CoT defense debuffs?

[MoonSheep]

11 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

As a player if I get confused I always pop buildup/aim, 10 or so red inspirations and kill my teammates because it's role playing.

 

“spontaneous PvP mode activated”

[Wavicle]

48 minutes ago, Uncle Shags said:

Ok, so I snuck away and I was able to hit it without distraction.  Mystery solved!

 

Earthquake is it!  It seems to be autohit, ignores defense debuff resistance, and lowers defense by 15%ish rather than the 10% it's listed as in CoD. That 5% difference threw me off earlier when it was suggested as the culprit.

 

I think another part of the challenge was they don't cast it very frequently. It might be something they use only on first contact.  Standing around, waiting for them to cast again didn't seem to work.

 

Aha!  Case closed! Solution: Get the heck out of the Earthquake zone if your survival depends on defense!

 

Booya. I feel like Columbo.

 

Yep, that makes sense. Powers like that, and Quicksand, are part of why SR gets decent Slow resists, so you can run out of a -Def field like that fairly easily.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

49 minutes ago, Uncle Shags said:

Ok, so I snuck away and I was able to hit it without distraction.  Mystery solved!

 

Earthquake is it!  It seems to be autohit, ignores defense debuff resistance, and lowers defense by 15%ish rather than the 10% it's listed as in CoD. That 5% difference threw me off earlier when it was suggested as the culprit.

 

I think another part of the challenge was they don't cast it very frequently. It might be something they use only on first contact.  Standing around, waiting for them to cast again didn't seem to work.

 

Aha!  Case closed! Solution: Get the heck out of the Earthquake zone if your survival depends on defense!

 

Booya. I feel like Columbo.

That checks out. The Defense debuff is tagged as "Ignores Resistance" in CoD so it would ignore your DDR. As for the 15% versus 10% you mentioned that you were running at +4 so that would scale up the debuff by 33% or 44% depending on whether you have an Alpha slot or not.

[Snarky]

On 5/8/2025 at 5:50 PM, Snarky said:

you already know.  Defense Debuffs exist.  CoT uses that stuff.  how much defense debuff res you got?  100??? mostly their stone mages but a lot of their cheesy minions throw  debuff def...

Earth Casters and Ruin Mages (both "stone")  called it!

[Jacke]

On 5/9/2025 at 9:40 PM, Adeon Hawkwood said:

That checks out. The Defense debuff is tagged as "Ignores Resistance" in CoD so it would ignore your DDR. As for the 15% versus 10% you mentioned that you were running at +4 so that would scale up the debuff by 33% or 44% depending on whether you have an Alpha slot or not.

 

Be aware that even Effects labelled as "Ignores Resistance" are still affected by the Purple Patch.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Purple_Patch

"When contemporary forum-goers talk about the "purple patch", they may be referring to the way player character effectiveness scales against different-level enemies. To use the table below, multiply the effects of your powers by the value in the Above column if you are Level levels above your target, or by the value in the Below column if you are Level levels below your target.

"These modifers apply to almost everything in combat: Debuff strength, Mez duration, Knockback magnitude, and Damage are all affected."

 

Mobs are usually a higher Level than the Toons.  The common max difference is +3L from Toons to Mobs (Mobs at +4L versus the Toon's Alpha +1--but most Pets don't get the Caster's Global buffs, including Level shifts, so it's +4L from ally Pets to Mobs).  Which means +3L from Mobs to Toons, +4L from Mobs to Pets.

 

That gives these multiplicative factors:

• +4 (Mobs to Pets)     x1.44
• +3 (Mobs to Toons)  x1.33
• -3  (Toons to Mobs)  x0.65
• -4  (Pets to Mobs)     x0.48

 

There's other factors for the Base Chance to Hit on the lower table on the Purple Patch page.  That's just for Toons to Mobs.

• -3  (Toons to Mobs)  48%
• -4  (Pets to Mobs)     39%

 

For Mobs against Toons and Pets, that really complex.  The details are in here, spread all out.  I'm also more uncertain here about these things.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

 

For Mobs:

"HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )"

"AccMods  =  the power's inherent Accuracy  ×  the Accuracy of the enemy's Rank  ×  Accuracy factor due to level difference"

 

The Clamps hold a value to between 95% and 5%, ie. "min(max(value, 5%), 95%)" or in ratios "min(max(value, 0.05), 0.95)".  BassHitChance for Mobs is 50%.

 

 Accuracy factor due to level difference:

• +4 (Mobs to Pets)     x1.4
• +3 (Mobs to Toons)  x1.3

 

Accuracy of the enemy's Rank::

Minion, player Pet	1.00
Lieutenant	1.15
Boss, Elite Boss, Sniper	1.30
Monster, Giant Monster, AV	1.50

 

Power's inherent Accuracy is a number, usually 1.0, but sometimes lower, sometimes higher, same as Toon's Powers.

 

My brain hurts now, so putting this all together I leave as an exercise.  😺

 

 

Edited Monday at 11:47 AM by Jacke

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

 

Be aware that even Effects labelled as "Ignores Resistance" are still affected by the Purple Patch.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Purple_Patch

"When contemporary forum-goers talk about the "purple patch", they may be referring to the way player character effectiveness scales against different-level enemies. To use the table below, multiply the effects of your powers by the value in the Above column if you are Level levels above your target, or by the value in the Below column if you are Level levels below your target.

"These modifers apply to almost everything in combat: Debuff strength, Mez duration, Knockback magnitude, and Damage are all affected."

 

Mobs are usually a higher Level than the Toons.  The common max difference is +3L from Toons to Mobs (Mobs at +4L versus the Toon's Alpha +1--but most Pets don't get the Caster's Global buffs, including Level shifts, so it's +4L from ally Pets to Mobs).  Which means -3L from Mobs to Toons, +4L from Mobs to Pets.

 

That gives these multiplicative factors:

• +4 (Mobs to Pets)     x1.44
• +3 (Mobs to Toons)  x1.33
• -3  (Toons to Mobs)  x0.65
• -4  (Pets to Mobs)     x0.48

 

There's other factors for the Base Chance to Hit on the lower table on the Purple Patch page.  That's just for Toons to Mobs.

• -3  (Toons to Mobs)  48%
• -4  (Pets to Mobs)     39%

 

For Mobs against Toons and Pets, that really complex.  The details are in here, spread all out.  I'm also more uncertain here about these things.

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Attack_Mechanics

 

For Mobs:

"HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )"

"AccMods  =  the power's inherent Accuracy  ×  the Accuracy of the enemy's Rank  ×  Accuracy factor due to level difference"

 

The Clamps hold a value to between 95% and 5%, ie. "min(max(value), 5%), 95%)" or in ratios "min(max(value), 0.05), 0.95)".  BassHitChance for Mobs is 50%.

 

 Accuracy factor due to level difference:

• +4 (Mobs to Pets)     x1.4
• +3 (Mobs to Toons)  x1.3

 

Accuracy of the enemy's Rank::

Minion, player Pet	1.00
Lieutenant	1.15
Boss, Elite Boss, Sniper	1.30
Monster, Giant Monster, AV	1.50

 

Power's inherent Accuracy is a number, usually 1.0, but sometimes lower, sometimes higher, same as Toon's Powers.

 

My brain hurts now, so putting this all together I leave as an exercise.  😺

 

 

i always assumed purple patch was the purple triangles

[Psyonico]

30 minutes ago, Snarky said:

i always assumed purple patch was the purple triangles

Nope, that’s Purple Triangles of Doom

 

https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Purple_Triangles

[Maelwys]

27 minutes ago, Snarky said:

i always assumed purple patch was the purple triangles

NYEH-HEH-HEH-HEH-HAH-HAH-HAH!

[Uncle Shags]

It's funny how team composition can either make all of that glorious math lead to a complete wipe, or in the case of the team I was on earlier, completely trivialize it.  

 

After thinking about this thread I was a bit cautious at first because it was only a team of 5 vs 54x8 CoT.  I started to get the flashback shakes.  When the Ruin Mages showed up I clenched my cheeks and waited for the dooom...but it never came.  Even pulling multiple groups, everything in sight, and dealing with two Ruins at once was easy-peazy.  I stood in the Earthquake and made the Ruin punch himself. Of course, there were 2 or 3 support and a blaster that did most of the work.  5-man steamroll.  Quite nice.

 

The more I play this game, the more I notice and appreciate the complexity...

[shortguy on indom]

• SOMETIMES THE COMPLEXITIES ARE JUST WIVE'S TALES.
• 
• 

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, shortguy on indom said:

• SOMETIMES THE COMPLEXITIES ARE JUST WIVE'S TALES.

what am I looking at sorry?

[shortguy on indom]

6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

what am I looking at sorry?

• 45% IS ABSOLUTELY NADA.

[Uncle Shags]

49 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

SOMETIMES THE COMPLEXITIES ARE JUST WIVE'S TALES

Come on man....

 

Can you put in a little effort to be accessible?  Ever heard of an abstract?

[TalynDerre]

So, I'm late to the party here, but I'm pretty sure it's Earthquake being dropped by the Masters of Ruin.  Earthquake is auto-hit, and reduces your DEF, which means it absolutely ruins the day of people with Super Reflexes and Energy Aura.

[shortguy on indom]

• JUXTAPOSITION MORE LIKE.

[Snarky]

38 minutes ago, shortguy on indom said:

• JUXTAPOSITION MORE LIKE.

Abstract juxtaposition 

 

[Uncle Shags]

On 5/13/2025 at 12:40 PM, shortguy on indom said:

• JUXTAPOSITION MORE LIKE.

 

On 5/12/2025 at 8:15 PM, shortguy on indom said:

• 45% IS ABSOLUTELY NADA.

 

On 5/12/2025 at 8:06 PM, shortguy on indom said:

• SOMETIMES THE COMPLEXITIES ARE JUST WIVE'S TALES.

Okay, I'm going to try again, nicely. 

 

Can you please explain what you mean and give an explanation of the spreadsheet you shared?  It probably is crystal clear to you, but it is not for people who are seeing it for the first time.

 

Thanks! 

[Maelwys]

On 5/13/2025 at 1:15 AM, shortguy on indom said:

• 45% IS ABSOLUTELY NADA.

🤦‍♂️

...

On the offchance that any impressionable newbies are reading this far into a thread about Defense mechanics; the Hit Chance Formula is:

HitChance = Clamp( AccMods × Clamp( BaseHitChance + ToHitMods – DefMods ) )

And to give a worked example of it in action: imagine a Level 54 Archvillian taking a swipe at a level 50+1 Player.
If the attacker is a +3 AV then their AccMods would be (1.0 [Attack base Accuracy] x 1.3 [Attacker is +3 to you] x 1.5 [Attacker is an AV]) = 1.95
And their BaseHitChance would be 50% [for a regular unbuffed PVE foe attacking a player]

If the player they're attacking has 45% Defense then without any additional ToHit buffs or Defense Debuffs in play then that'd work out at: Clamp(1.95 x Clamp (0.5 - 0.45))
All "Clamp" does is stop the result from going below 0.05 or above 0.95; so that ends up as:  Clamp(1.95 x 0.05) = 0.0975 = 9.75% chance to hit for each attack.

If the player they're attacking instead had 50% Defense then that'd instead work out at: Clamp(1.95 x Clamp (0.5 - 0.5))
However as "Clamp" stops that (0.5 - 0.5) on the far right from going below 0.05; that STILL ends up as:  Clamp(1.95 x 0.05) = 9.75% chance to hit for each attack.

Therefore 45% Defense is the "soft cap" because adding more Defense than that is worthless providing no additional ToHit buffs or Defense Debuffs are in play.

However if your Defense starts getting debuffed; or the attacker gains ToHit buffs (like in Hardmode and incarnate content or if they're more than 5 levels above you) then having more Raw Defense and/or Defense Debuff Resistance starts mattering.




Calculating the likelihood of being hit across multiple attacks involves more involved binomial probability calculations; where you have to find out the chance for the each individual event to NOT occur and then multiply those together and take the result away from one.

so...
The likelihood of being hit at least once by 1 such attack = 9.75%
The likelihood of being hit at least once by 2 such attacks = 18.55% [found by 1-((1-0.0975)*(1-0.0975))]

The likelihood of being hit at least once by 3 such attacks = 26.491% [found by 1-((1-0.0975)*(1-0.0975)*(1-0.0975))]

The likelihood of being hit at least once by 4 such attacks = 33.658% [found by 1-((1-0.0975)*(1-0.0975)*(1-0.0975)*(1-0.0975))]

The likelihood of being hit at least once by 5 such attacks = 40.127% [etc. etc. etc.]

The likelihood of being hit at least once by 6 such attacks = 45.964%

The likelihood of being hit at least once by 7 such attacks = 51.233%

The likelihood of being hit at least once by 8 such attacks = 55.988%

However IMO ballparking the expected hit rate over time is only really relevant if you're trying to work out a rough estimate for average incoming damage over a very long period of time... like when pinning down Regeneration Rate requirements for AFK AE Farming builds.
 

On 5/13/2025 at 1:08 AM, Wavicle said:

what am I looking at sorry?

🙈 Don't look too close or it'll look back.

 

23 minutes ago, Uncle Shags said:

It probably is crystal clear to you, but it is not for people who are seeing it for the first time.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Uncle Shags said:

 

 

Okay, I'm going to try again, nicely. 

 

Can you please explain what you mean and give an explanation of the spreadsheet you shared?  It probably is crystal clear to you, but it is not for people who are seeing it for the first time.

 

Thanks! 

[Uncle Shags]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

Therefore 45% Defense is the "soft cap" because adding more Defense than that is worthless providing no additional ToHit buffs or Defense Debuffs are in play.

I've got the debuff part covered, but have been wondering about to hit buffs. Do you have recommendations for addressing this?  For instance, is 50% high enough to deal with most of the to hit?  I'm sure it depends on the particular power(s) involved, but I'm trying to min/max/better understand.

 

Sometimes I look at the combat log and am suspicious that their chance to hit is higher than it should be.