Seeking advice on picking the right archtype and powers for a character concept!

[markuswaters]

I'm hoping for some help with the best way to make a facsimile of what I'm doing with my Pathfinder character. (TTRPG similar to Dungeons and Dragons, for those unfamiliar.)
I've got the look down pretty solidly.  I built him initially as a Blaster, but now I'm thinking that I may have made a mistake in doing that due to the lack of inherent incoming damage tolerance.  I'm a rather-inexperienced player who has dabbled in this game since release, but I've only really had one 80, and even then I was power-leveled there in basically an afternoon... so my perspective on what the various archtypes excel at is very surface-level.  Sentinel looks like it may be a good fit, but again, that may just be a surface-level assessment

Theme:
Bronze Dragon who was chosen by the god Asmodeus (Lawful Evil Devilish Deity) and has sworn himself to be a force for Order at all costs (He's not sold on the idea of committing to evil, but going into the weeds on that detail probably won't help much with the advice).
Bronze Dragons are Ocean-y and deal Lightning damage with their breath weapon - I've taken some feats from a 3rd party system that let me shoot lightning blasts even when my full-power breath weapon is unavailable or has insufficient range.
Dragons are generally pretty tough, due to their higher HP and natural armor (the biggest reason I think picking a Blaster was a mistake), but they are still quite mortal.
His bond with Asmodeus has resulted in additional powers that enhance him with a Hellfire aura and enhance his melee attack options with hellfire also.  He was also given the ability to do some minor healing (he can apply a small heal-over-time to himself and others), but that's not really a necessity for the facsimile.  I just mention it because it's something he can do.  Depending on how things go, he'll potentially also gain the ability to summon Devils and Devilish creatures on a temporary basis.

Based on this theme, I'm going Lightning/Fire, with flight and hovering for travel and combat.  I'd like to be able to contribute to group content, but not fall flat on my face so often solo, too.

So, how bout it, fellow creative folks?  What do you think is the best-fitting archtype to make something of this nature, and what kind of power choices would you suggest to make him content-viable?  I'm probably overthinking this, but that's because I really like this character and wanna do it justice...

Thank you ahead of time for any advice provided!

Edited May 14 by markuswaters
typo correction

[Wobegone]

Dragons rely on powerful claw attacks (and tail attack) as well as elemental attacks.  I'd probably go Claws/Inv/Mu for a tough melee attacker who gains powerful lightning attacks later in life.  I know dragons start life with a breath attack, but their melee attacks are powerful while the breath weapon needs to recharge. 

 

Alternatively you could go Claws/SR as dragons are really hard to hit.  But they also have a bunch of hps, so Inv seems better as layered mitigation.  Or you could go Brute or Tank.  I'd still go Claws/Inv/Mu.  

 

If you wanted to be more ranged and concentrate in lightning attacks, I'd go with Lightning/Inv Sentinel or a Lightning/something blaster.  

 

 

[markuswaters]

Thank you for the input!

I think I'm more looking to lean into the elemental effects I've got going on because of the Hellfire stuff he's been granted and the electric Breath Weapon and the other ranged pew-pews he has.  The Hellfire is more of a melee enhancement and the Electricity is mostly ranged right now (eventually he'll grow into having a passive aura of electricity as a Bronze).

The more I've been reading, the more I'm leaning toward Sentinel.  Because on of the big things dragons get is extremely-keen senses (their Darkvision is second to none, and they also get an ability called "blindsense" - this lets them be aware of objects and creatures near them without any input from the standard 5 senses; including against things like invisibility) and Sentinels are notes as being very perceptive.  I have no idea how that plays out in game, though, lol...

You may have it on the Lightning/Fire Blaster though, which is what he currently is.  Maybe I should be thinking more about playing into the party dynamics of the game instead of worrying about my survivablility in a solo context.  Hmm...

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, markuswaters said:

Thank you ahead of time for any advice provided!

 

Based on the information you provided I would go for an electrical/invulnerability Sentinel if you want to cast ranged electrical attacks and be tough/resistant to damage.

 

Electrical armor and Willpower might be an options as well. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14 by UltraAlt

[Maelwys]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Based on the information you provided I would go for an electrical/invulnerability Sentinel if you want to cast ranged electrical attacks and be tough/resistant to damage.

 

Electrical armor and Willpower might be an options as well. 

 

Sentinel is definitely a good shout, but I'd veer towards Electric Blast (which as a set is actually best performancewise on a Sentinel due to Tesla Cage dealing noteworthy damage) and Fiery Armor (for the self-healing and additional Fire Damage, plus Resistance based damage mitigation and +HP from consume) to best fit the theme.

 

For Demon Summoning there are a few appropriate Lore Pet options, and both the Fire and Electric Epic pools contain limited allied healing options.

[BjorJlen]

Interesting concept, and kudos for using the Pathfinder D&D system to generate it with... 🙂

   I too would suggest a Electrical Blast Sentinel, with your secondary being either Electrical Armor, Invulnerability, or Willpower (all good choices). In addition, you could also go with a "Bio Plasma" aura, as that is a far better look for a fire aura then just the "Fiery" aura selection (it also has the benefit of not obscuring your characters look too much). 🙂
 

[Maelwys]

9 hours ago, markuswaters said:

(eventually he'll grow into having a passive aura of electricity as a Bronze).

Electricity Mastery (Sentinel Epic Pool) would give access to Shocking Field; which is an Electricity Aura (and unlike most damage auras it applies a non-stacking DoT; so you don't actually need to remain in melee range if you don't want to - merely brushing against your target once every 10 seconds is enough to deal maximum damage)

 

9 hours ago, markuswaters said:

 the big things dragons get is extremely-keen senses (their Darkvision is second to none, and they also get an ability called "blindsense" - this lets them be aware of objects and creatures near them without any input from the standard 5 senses; including against things like invisibility) and Sentinels are notes as being very perceptive.  I have no idea how that plays out in game, though, lol...

In CoX having higher "Perception" than normal in-game allows you to see hidden stealthy/invisible enemies. At baseline perception (500ft) PVE enemies with Stealth abilities such as Circle of Thorns Nerva Demons and Tsoo Ancestral Spirits can often become fully invisible to you even standing 0ft away... but almost any perception buff above baseline will allow you to see them; and the more perception you have, the further away they'll become visible to you.

Certain defensive powersets have abilities which grant +Perception; although Fiery Armor does not and neither does Invulnerability. Other common ways to increase Perception are to slot a Rectified Reticle IO (I'll often put one into Aim or Build Up) and/or to take Tactics from the Leadership Pool (which tends to make more sense for Support ATs like Defenders/Controllers/Corruptors/Masterminds). Some other ATs get additional toggle abilities that grant +Perception and ToHit; such as Targeting Drone or Focussed Accuracy... but the only one I'm aware that's available to Sentinels is Coordinated Targeting from Mace Mastery. IMO devoting a single slot to a Rectified Reticle IO is the easiest method here + will ensure that you're able to see anything worth seeing in PVE at close-ish range (~110ft). D&D Racial Blindsight ranges tend to be the region of 30-60ft anyway.
Sentinels have additional resistance to Perception debuffs (10% IIRC?); as well as a Inherent (Opportunity) that builds up over time and allows you to apply a debuff onto a single enemy... this debuff is typically used for reducing their damage resistance but it also includes a -Stealth debuff. So if YOU can see enemies; then you can tag them and allow teammates to see them too.

The thing you may need to compromise on is an "Electric Breath Attack" - the only elemental attacks with breath animations I'm aware of are Fire Breath (Fire Blast) and Frost Breath (Ice Blast). However the Electrical Blast powerset does have a very powerful ranged nuke in Thunderous Blast; which on a Sentinel recharges comparatively quickly!
Once you get to 50; Incarnate abilities will open up some other methods of representing stuff... like a Reactive Interface Slot (adds Fire damage to your attacks) and an Ion Judgement slot (a big ranged AoE Electrical damage blast) and Rebirth Destiny (infrequent but fairly powerful AoE Allied Healing) so you won't actually need to be tied to a specific AT/powerset combo if you feel you can wait until the level cap for your character's powerset to become fully fleshed out.

I guess a leading question here would be what class are they in Pathfinder? I don't see that listed anywhere... I'm more familiar with 5e but "Chosen by a deity" and "Order" suggests Paladin or Cleric; which might be better represented in CoX by Tanker or Defender/Corruptor than a Sentinel. You could make a decent Sword + Board Paladin or Cleric with a "Shield Defense" Tanker (plus Warmace, Battleaxe, Broadsword, whatever... or even Firey Melee) if you're prepared to wait until level 50 for Ion Judgement to represent your Electrical "Breath Blasts".

 

Edited May 14 by Maelwys

[SeraphimKensai]

Elec/Fiery Aura Sentinel.

[markuswaters]

Wow!  Thanks for all the input, folks!  This is great!

 

2 hours ago, Maelwys said:

I guess a leading question here would be what class are they in Pathfinder? I don't see that listed anywhere... I'm more familiar with 5e but "Chosen by a deity" and "Order" suggests Paladin or Cleric; which might be better represented in CoX by Tanker or Defender/Corruptor than a Sentinel. You could make a decent Sword + Board Paladin or Cleric with a "Shield Defense" Tanker (plus Warmace, Battleaxe, Broadsword, whatever... or even Firey Melee) if you're prepared to wait until level 50 for Ion Judgement to represent your Electrical "Breath Blasts".

 

 

I'm playing in Pathfinder 1e, and using direct racial hit die progression using the charts and whatnot that are part of base Pathfinder to write it up as a full class.  I wrote it up and have been using it for years with only minor adjustments.  I'll attach it in case you find it interesting!

Extra details below about how becoming chosen happened - spoiler'd so only click if interested:

Spoiler

Leonidas was chosen by Asmodeus as a result of things that happened in-game.  The city near where the primary adventure is taking place is fun by Hell Knights, and another player was playing my adopted father - a human Paladin of Iomedae.  (I say was because he died... Large Water Elemental, go-go.)  Unfortunately, he is a somewhat new player, and wasn't aware of the burtal ways that Hell Knights deal with lawbreaking.  So when me, the little dragon (you'll see on the sheet that I started out extremely tiny - diminutive at, level 1 so roughly the size of a squirrel) chased down a thief in town who was subjected to non-lethal but quite painful punishment for his crime and also trying to lie his way out of it, dear old Dad wasn't ready for the questions my character had that followed and unintentionally set me on a path toward friendship with the Hell Knights.
Later on, using a fate points system that the DM awards in his game, I unintentionally requested divine intervention to teleport us out of certain death.  Asmodeus was the deity who answered, since my little dragon had shown up on his radar after multiple interactions in that town.  Fast forward a bunch of sessions: little dragon is a bit bigger, Paladad was killed, and not only following but has a regular direct line to talk with Asmodeus.  Oh, also convinced Paladad to reject joining Iomadae (she'd stripped him of his paladinhood a few sessions prior) in the afterlife and instead joined Asmodeus (big-juju follower points).

 

I like this breakdown of powers - that seems very fitting.

6 hours ago, Maelwys said:

 

Sentinel is definitely a good shout, but I'd veer towards Electric Blast (which as a set is actually best performancewise on a Sentinel due to Tesla Cage dealing noteworthy damage) and Fiery Armor (for the self-healing and additional Fire Damage, plus Resistance based damage mitigation and +HP from consume) to best fit the theme.

 

For Demon Summoning there are a few appropriate Lore Pet options, and both the Fire and Electric Epic pools contain limited allied healing options.

 

Playing as a Bronze Dragon.docx

Edited May 14 by markuswaters

[catsi563]

Sounds like an Electric Invuln sentinel would be in order

 

and for a melee version you could so an electric melee invuln scrapper or brute or tank

 

[Maelwys]

35 minutes ago, markuswaters said:

I'm playing in Pathfinder 1e, and using direct racial hit die progression using the charts and whatnot that are part of base Pathfinder to write it up as a full class.  It's   I wrote it up and have been using it for years with only minor adjustments.  I'll attach it in case you find it interesting!

Glancing it over; the regular attacks seem like Bite/Claws/Wings/TailSlap; which are all melee attacks? Sentinel is primarily a Ranged attack class; although it gets access to a few melee attacks via Pool powers and Epic/Patron Pools. If you typically don't bother with the racial attacks and lean more into your feat-based Lightning blasts and breath attack/spells then fair enough; but if you wanted a more feral melee attacker then a "Savage Melee" Tanker/Scrapper/Brute might be an option (with either Fiery Armor or Electric Armor).

The bit about dragons being immune to Sleep and Paralysis and having Damage Reduction and Spell Resistance definitely sounds like you'd want an AT with a proper armor set rather than a Blaster (or even a "Permadom" Dominator). "Immunity to Lightning Damage" isn't really possible as in CoX that'll cap out at 90% on a Brute/Tanker and 75% on Scrappers/Stalkers/Sentinels... but you can push it fairly high. A typical IOed Fiery Armor Sentinel will have ~40% or higher Energy Resistance and 75% Fire Resistance; whereas an Electric Armor Sentinel will be the other way around + so may be better if shrugging off Energy Damage attacks is thematically important to you.

A few people have mentioned Invulnerability. It's a good set with multiple layers of damage mitigation... and the FX of its active toggle powers can be minimized to the point of invisibility (so you can see your costume clearly!). However it focuses more on Defense (which to translate into DnD terms is effectively like having a very high Armor Class which applies to both incoming attack rolls and spells; but always has at least a 5% chance to fail - just like an enemy rolling a Nat20 on their attack roll!) and Smashing/Lethal Damage Resistance so it'll be difficult (but not impossible) to cap its Energy Damage Resistance.
 

Edited May 14 by Maelwys

[markuswaters]

I've learned a lot from this thread, and I think I have a much better idea of what I'm gonna look at/decide on.  Thank you again, everyone!

[biostem]

13 hours ago, markuswaters said:

Bronze Dragon

I'm leaning toward an elec/fire armor sentinel, from what you've described.  You could also go the route of one of the melee ATs, (maybe a savage/fire scrapper or something similar), taking the Mu Patron pool for the electrical attacks, (if your chosen AT doesn't have a regular elec APP)... 

Edited May 14 by biostem

[markuswaters]

1 hour ago, biostem said:

I'm leaning toward an elec/fire armor sentinel, from what you've described.  You could also go the route of one of the melee ATs, (maybe a savage/fire scrapper or something similar), taking the Mu Patron pool for the electrical attacks, (if your chosen AT doesn't have a regular elec APP)... 

yeah, considering where he'll be once I progress more, the melee builds may make more sense.

[Troo]

15 hours ago, markuswaters said:

So, how bout it, fellow creative folks?  What do you think is the best-fitting archtype

 

Healing and melee attacks.. that can be tough.

 

However I'd consider Elec/Dark/Fire Corruptor for the theme you've laid out. Fire/Dark/Elec would be an upgrade. (mage tank types since you are flying)

 

[markuswaters]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

However I'd consider Elec/Dark/Fire Corruptor [...] Fire/Dark/Elec would be an upgrade. (mage tank types since you are flying)

Can you expand on this, please?  Why would fire/dark/elec be an upgrade over elec/dark/fire?

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, markuswaters said:

Can you expand on this, please?  Why would fire/dark/elec be an upgrade over elec/dark/fire?

Fire blast does more damage than electric blast, on average.

[UltraAlt]

7 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Fire blast does more damage than electric blast, on average.

 

But it doesn't fit @markuswaters 's concept.

They are obviously going for a concept.

There are some that are always going to push for the mini/max, but that means building toward the mini/max instead of staying true to the concept.

 

There is no problem with building to concept. I think the characters end up being more fun to play when they fit a concept.

[Maelwys]

35 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

But it doesn't fit @markuswaters 's concept.

They are obviously going for a concept.

 

100% agree with you on this one.

 

The OP here appears very keen to replicate a much beloved character concept, therefore recommending powersets or even ATs based on their mechanical performance isn't going to matter if it doesn't match that concept.

 

Quote

There are some that are always going to push for the mini/max, but that means building toward the mini/max instead of staying true to the concept.

 

I'm a card carrying powergamer, but my preferred method of playing RPGs (particularly tabletop ones) is to pick a fun concept first, often involving Class/Subclass/Race/Background/Feat options that are traditionally considered weak, and then seeing just how far I can push that character mechanically. 

 

In HC that translates to me occasionally even playing Brutes... 😜

[markuswaters]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

[...]
There are some that are always going to push for the mini/max, but that means building toward the mini/max instead of staying true to the concept.

 

There is no problem with building to concept. I think the characters end up being more fun to play when they fit a concept.

Yes, the concept is king in my intention.  While I want him to be as good as I can get him to be, that is within the confines of the concept.  He doesn't have to match the concept at level 1 in CoH, though - I'm totally fine with waiting for him to fully coalesce at 50.

Currently the character is only level 5 in the Pathfinder game, so he's far from the melee powerhouse he'll be once he's all grown up.  So considering how he'll likely be at a higher level, I've narrowed things down to two different options:

Brute - Savage Melee/Electric Armor/Fire Mastery | This leans into the melee much more, which fits the theoretical future-state of the character.
Sentinel - Electrical Blast/Fiery Aura/Fire Mastery | This has a surprising amount of overlap with his current state, and also seems to line up with taking flight/hover better through my clearly very educated eyes (har-har).


So which one of these is the more valid in actual content?  If what I've gathered from what I've been reading on these forums is correct, both of these ATs are viable in solo content without much issue, so the question is mainly pointed at group content.

Also, so there's no wasted time on the subject: I have absolutely zero interest in PvP.

Edited May 15 by markuswaters
typo fix

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, markuswaters said:

So which one of these is the more valid in actual content?

 

Any build is valid for the most part.

The main gimping is not taking powers that are critical to make a set work/be as powerful as it could be.

For example, if you are a melee character and don't take the anti-mez power that the armor set will provide then you are opening your character up to getting mezed in battle. In many cases, it only takes 1 additional slot to reduce the recharge time of that anti-mez power to than less than how long it lasts, so if you don't give it that second slot for a recharge enhancement then you are also open the character up to being mezed in battle.

You don't necessarily have to take all the primary or secondary powers. I usually end up skipping self-rez powers on melee characters.

 

Validity in combat tends more to be based up how you intend to play the character, who you are teaming with, and if you are solo.

 

Unless you are in and end-game steam-rolling level 50 team, the tactics of each archetype and power set are very different and so are the way sets work.

You have to play the tactics that fit an archetype and set to get the most out of it. That is to say, you can't play a blaster like tank or, obviously, vice-versa. Use the archetype and power sets strength, and do what you need to do to avoid the enemy from using your character's weakness against them.

 

Sometimes you will be on a team and the team is going to be working together and sometimes you might be on a team where everyone is running around berserk and could care less about what the rest of the team is doing.

So say you are on a team with a tank that taunts (actually has and uses the power taunt) and you are playing a squishy, as long as they are taunting your character can AoE targets around the tank and they won't all turn around and attack your character.

Same scenario on a team without a taunting tank, avoid using AoEs and cones to limit the amount of agro your character is pulling.

Same scenario on a team without a taunting tank, use and AoE immobilize on the middle of the mob and dodge back around the corner. After dealing with whatever damage you are taking, peer around the corner of the wall so that you only see one or two targets, start attacking one of them, and periodically set of another AoE immobilize to try to hold down some of the group you can't see. If one breaks out and runs around the corner, then back up enough so that they are the only target visible and start attacking them.

Same scenario, you are playing the tank with taunt, if there is someone on the team that can keep your character healed then they can taunt all the time, if you can't get heals, then you are going to have to mitigate when you're taunting.

 

Soloing is a quite a different thing. CoH was built for teaming, but it has been made more solo-friendly over the years.

Melee characters tend to work best for soloing according to most people.

Defenders are probably the worst to solo with.

 

1 hour ago, markuswaters said:

Also, so there's no wasted time on the subject: I have absolutely zero interest in PvP.

 

lol.

You don't really need to even point that out here.
It is sort of the other way around, if your intent is to PvP then you need to make sure that is what  you are interested in.

The best PvP you will find in THE CITY is the Auction House.

The game wasn't built for PvP and so PvP is very unbalanced. Pretty much everyone knows that so they don't bother PvP'ing.

[markuswaters]

27 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Any build is valid for the most part.

[...]

Cool, good to know.  Thank you.

Sounds like I need to just look around at builds once I get my head around which one of these I wanna play.

[UltraAlt]

47 minutes ago, markuswaters said:

Cool, good to know.  Thank you.

Sounds like I need to just look around at builds once I get my head around which one of these I wanna play.

 

Honestly, if you are going for character conception, I'll tell what I do.

 

As I'm levelling up, I pick the next power that seems to make them most sense. That can either be which of the power more fits my concept, or which of the powers at that point do I need to pick because my character seems to have a weakness either in attack/damage or defense/mitigation. It may come to that level where maybe you want hover, but you really need another attack, so put hover off for another 2 levels. The other way around, if there is a good attack to pick but you keep getting hit, then it maybe time to get hover and slot a defense enhancement in it.

 

Primarily, you have been talking about picking powers and not slotting.

You aren't going to have a lot of influence to start. Yelling out that you could use a little influence in the help channel will usually end up getting you mailed some. Just don't abuse it.

 

Click powers:

I make sure to slot all my attack powers with 2 accuracy SOs as soon as possible. Your character isn't doing damage if they don't hit.

If a power cost more than 10 endurance to use, my next slot after accuracy is going to be and end reducer.

I would try to have 2 slots in stamina by level 10-15 and 3 in stamina by level 20-25.

If a power has a special effect (stuns, slows, debuffs, etc), I'll usually try to slot one of those in after the first 2 accuracy (and the possible end reduction)

 

Toggle powers:

If it cost more than .26/sec then I usually start with an end reducer before slotting it up with anything else.

If I'm slotting with SO's, I generally don't put more than 2 defense or 2 damage reduction if it is armor - or - go for that 2 accuracy if it is a damage shield.

If you run a lot of toggles and your character is running out of endurance frequently, you might want to look at putting an end reducer in it even if it is less than .26/sec.

[UltraAlt]

1 hour ago, markuswaters said:

Sounds like I need to just look around at builds once I get my head around which one of these I wanna play.

 

oh, sorry. I forgot.

You have 1000 character slots per server.

Make one of each and try it out for several levels. Then switch back and forth if you get bored with one of them.

[Psyonico]

3 hours ago, markuswaters said:

Brute - Savage Melee/Electric Armor/Fire Mastery | This leans into the melee much more, which fits the theoretical future-state of the character.
Sentinel - Electrical Blast/Fiery Aura/Fire Mastery | This has a surprising amount of overlap with his current state, and also seems to line up with taking flight/hover better through my clearly very educated eyes (har-har).

 

A couple thoughts about those two options. My goal here in not to steer you in one direction or the other, but to give you knowledge so you can make the character you want to make.

if you’re planning on taking Hover and leaving it on, Electric Armor has a disadvantage in that situation.  The power that Elec Armor gets that provides knockback protection (Grounded) only works while you’re on the ground.

 

 However, counter point, Fire Armor gets significantly less knockback protection overall, so you need to plan on slotting some -knockback into Fire Armor.  So really, if you want to do either set *and* you want hover, you’ll need to be prepared to be knocked around for a little while.

 

Armor sets: Electric is a bit more sturdy, Fire is a bit more offensive.  But both are viable for non-end game content very easily, and both can be made viable for end game content down the line.

 

Brutes are going to do more damage if you move quickly between targets because of their inherent ability, Fury, which increases by attacking and being attacked and decreases over time.  Fury provides a bonus to your damage.

 

 If you are planning on fighting more slowly, brutes and sentinels will be about equal in damage.

 

Brutes can get tanker than Sentinels due to them having a higher cap to Resistance and maxHP.  However, being at range adds to a sentinel’s survivability in that most enemies have more melee attacks than Ranged attacks.

 

If none of that really matters to you, then the biggest take away I can give is “if you want to be primarily ranged, go Sentinel. If you want to be primarily melee, go Brute.”  Sentinels can get melee attacks in their Epic pools (available starting at 35) and Brutes get ranged attacks in theirs, but your primary set is going to be where most of your attacks come from.

 

another possible combination you didn’t include is a savage (or electric)/fire/mu brute.  This will be an offensive powerhouse combo and Mu Mastery gives ranged electrical attacks.  Note that for Mu Mastery, you do need to go reside (rogue or villain alignment) and complete a patron arc.  Technically you can just join someone who is doing the last mission in the arc and you get credit for it.  If you go the latter path, you only need to go as “evil” as a Vigilante.

 

hmm, maybe I should roll a savage/fire/mu brute