Focused Feedback: Tanker - Archetype Inherent Changes

[arcane]

2 hours ago, aethereal said:

But the big juice for Tankers in terms of damage comparison with Brutes isn't in apples-to-apples comparisons (150% damage buff + 2 procs each, say).  It's that Tankers have a (much) easier time fitting more procs in their attacks while hitting any given durability goal.

This is why I love Tankers. I do the most minimal slotting on the mitigation side and am immortal. And I get to do more interesting things with my offensive slotting as a result.

[Auroxis]

In order to help make things clearer, I did some basic math the best I could. Let me know if I messed anything up:

 

Fix #1: A proc was missing at brute totals

Fix #2: Tanker base damage was incorrect, radius is part of base damage formula

 

Live Tanker at damage cap:

 

Dragon's Tail	312.17	34.15	34.15	34.15
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
16	4994.73	546.33	546.33	546.33	6633.73

 

 

Beta Tanker at damage cap:

 

Dragon's Tail	245.30	27.61	27.61	27.61
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
10	2453.00	276.09	276.09	276.09
11	2636.98	296.80	296.80	296.80
12	2774.96	312.33	312.33	312.33
13	2878.44	323.98	323.98	323.98
14	2956.06	332.71	332.71	332.71
15	3014.27	339.27	339.27	339.27
16	3057.93	344.18	344.18	344.18	4090.47

 

Brute at damage cap:

 

Dragon's Tail	345.03	34.15	34.15	34.15
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
10	3450.31	341.46	341.46	341.46	4474.69

 

Live Tanker unbuffed:

 

Dragon's Tail	124.87	34.15	34.15	34.15
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
16	1997.89	546.33	546.33	546.33	3636.89

 

Beta Tanker unbuffed:

 

Dragon's Tail	98.12	27.61	27.61	27.61
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
10	981.20	276.09	276.09	276.09
11	1054.79	296.80	296.80	296.80
12	1109.98	312.33	312.33	312.33
13	1151.38	323.98	323.98	323.98
14	1182.42	332.71	332.71	332.71
15	1205.71	339.27	339.27	339.27
16	1223.17	344.18	344.18	344.18	2255.71

 

Brute unbuffed+75% Fury:

 

Dragon's Tail	172.52	34.15	34.15	34.15
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
10	1725.16	341.46	341.46	341.46	2749.53

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 10:36 AM by Auroxis

[Crysis]

3 hours ago, macskull said:

I think at that point the biggest challenge the game would offer would be finding teams, since I would expect a ton of people to leave over something like that.

 

Kind of my point….this playerbase doesn’t actually -want- challenge added into the game.  They want more costumes, more content and parity of “superness” across all AT’s, but most definitely NOT more challenging gameplay.

[Uncle Shags]

27 minutes ago, arcane said:

This is why I love Tankers. I do the most minimal slotting on the mitigation side and am immortal.

I'm not sure this type of exaggeration is helpful when we're talking about trying to find balance. Some may read this and take it at face value.  I'm sure you just mean super tough, or immortal vs x and y in z scenario, but when I hear immortal I hear "doesn't die, no matter what." That's what I try to build for, and I know it takes much more than just "minimal slotting."

 

To me, for instance, immortal means pulling, all at once, a map full of 54x8 radios.  Endless groups. Arachnos, Carnies, Cot, and Council. I know from experience that's not easy to build and requires a lot more than just minimal slotting. 

 

Even then I wouldn't use the word "immortal". Recently I tried to solo the new roaming Awaken group in the beta KW park and it was a...humbling experience... 

 

I'm not trying to pick a fight or play semantics, but sometimes words matter. 

[Erratic1]

44 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

In order to help make things clearer, I did some basic math the best I could. Let me know if I messed anything up:

 

So Beta Tankers are dealing more damage than Brutes, whether unbuffed or maximally buffed?

[Ratch_]

59 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

In order to help make things clearer, I did some basic math the best I could. Let me know if I messed anything up:

 

Live Tanker at damage cap:

 

Dragon's Tail	312.1705	34.145825	34.145825	34.145825
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
16	4994.728	546.3332	546.3332	546.3332	6633.7276

 

Beta Tanker at damage cap:

 

Dragon's Tail	312.1705	27.6094	27.6094	27.6094
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
10	3121.705	276.094	276.094	276.094
11	3355.832875	296.80105	296.80105	296.80105
12	3531.428781	312.3313375	312.3313375	312.3313375
13	3663.125711	323.9790531	323.9790531	323.9790531
14	3761.898408	332.7148398	332.7148398	332.7148398
15	3835.977931	339.2666799	339.2666799	339.2666799
16	3891.537573	344.1805599	344.1805599	344.1805599	4924.079253

 

Brute at damage cap:

 

Dragon's Tail	345.0314	34.145825	34.145825	34.145825
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
10	3450.314	341.45825	341.45825	341.45825	4133.2305

 

Live Tanker unbuffed:

 

Dragon's Tail	124.8682	34.145825	34.145825	34.145825
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
16	1997.8912	546.3332	546.3332	546.3332	3636.8908

 

Beta Tanker unbuffed:

 

Dragon's Tail	124.8682	27.6094	27.6094	27.6094
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
10	1248.682	276.094	276.094	276.094
11	1342.33315	296.80105	296.80105	296.80105
12	1412.571513	312.3313375	312.3313375	312.3313375
13	1465.250284	323.9790531	323.9790531	323.9790531
14	1504.759363	332.7148398	332.7148398	332.7148398
15	1534.391172	339.2666799	339.2666799	339.2666799
16	1556.615029	344.1805599	344.1805599	344.1805599	2589.156709

 

Brute unbuffed+75% Fury:

 

Dragon's Tail	172.5157	34.145825	34.145825	34.145825
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
10	1725.157	341.45825	341.45825	341.45825	2408.0735

 

Seeing the brute at dmg cap being ~18% lower vs tanker is pretty sad to see ngl

[Gobbledigook]

10 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

So Beta Tankers are dealing more damage than Brutes, whether unbuffed or maximally buffed?

No they are just hitting more targets with an AoE (dragontail only). Less targets and Brute wins. If the math is even correct.

[Ratch_]

1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

Beta Tanker at damage cap:

 

Dragon's Tail	312.1705	27.6094	27.6094	27.6094
Targets	Base	Proc #1	Proc #2	Proc #3	Total
10	3121.705	276.094	276.094	276.094
11	3355.832875	296.80105	296.80105	296.80105
12	3531.428781	312.3313375	312.3313375	312.3313375
13	3663.125711	323.9790531	323.9790531	323.9790531
14	3761.898408	332.7148398	332.7148398	332.7148398
15	3835.977931	339.2666799	339.2666799	339.2666799
16	3891.537573	344.1805599	344.1805599	344.1805599	4924.079253

Also, proc dmg doesn't go down in effectiveness with overcap mechanic?

3531.428781 vs 3450.314 
 
Since most mobs are 10-12 without herding I'll compare the 12 max it's like a 2.5% increase if the tanker hits 12 and the brute hits 10. In practicality I don't think this is that concerning at all now that I weigh it out more in my head.

Biggest advantage is less overcap and more that they get bigger AoE QoL. Being stuck at 8ft on some powers just sucks so much.

Edited Monday at 11:15 PM by Ratch_

[Erratic1]

2 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

No they are just hitting more targets with an AoE (dragontail only). Less targets and Brute wins. If the math is even correct.

 

Damage is what clears missions. All the foes in the mission represent a minimum (because they can heal) amount of damage which must be done. Tankers deal it faster. There is no dancing around that.

[Gobbledigook]

5 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Damage is what clears missions. All the foes in the mission represent a minimum (because they can heal) amount of damage which must be done. Tankers deal it faster. There is no dancing around that.

If you can constantly have 11+targets they may but less damage on a boss or lower target cap. Brutes can get above 75% fury with lots of targets nearby also. As weaker targets drop and harder targets are left the Brute will pull ahead.

 

You can't just go off of one test with one power used. 

Edited Monday at 11:11 PM by Gobbledigook

[Erratic1]

9 minutes ago, Gobbledigook said:

If you can constantly have 11+targets they may but less damage on a boss or lower target cap. Brutes can get above 75% fury with lots of targets nearby also. As weaker targets drop and harder targets are left the Brute will pull ahead.

 

If you cannot keep 11+ targets up, neither can you keep Fury continuously pegged.

[Gobbledigook]

7 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

If you cannot keep 11+ targets up, neither can you keep Fury continuously pegged.

Wouldn't that depend on the content or do you mean AE?

 

Harder targets will be tougher for the Tanker and easier for the Brute. Trash is just trash and goes down well with either, especially with a team helping out.

 

I never found Fury hard to maintain with just 1 target.

 

This is not a Brute vs Tanker comparison thread and i don't want to derail it any further.

Edited Monday at 11:27 PM by Gobbledigook

[Gerswin Jr]

 

IMO attempting to balance the ATs is a stupid geek errand. All that matters at this point in the game is having an enjoyable product.  This is not a tournament fighting game that requires constant balance adjustments to react to the meta. Let people play what they want to play. If certain sets or ATs are more effective than others, who outside of a few nerds really cares?  Some people in tjis game act lile AT balance is a RL social justice issue or something. All of the potentially good new content is being overshadowed by irrelevant buff and nerf seesaws. If I were a developer who wrote and tested a bunch of new content only to have it buried by this stupid AT or powerset balance crap I would be super pissed. Neither tank nor brute damage has never been meta outside of specificly constructed solo  circlejerk benchmarks like pylons and AE farms.  All of the deliberately balanced difficult content in the game like 4* and  incarnate challenge badges are much smoother with blasters and corruptors. 

 

The reason this issue sets off my dooom detector so much is that I now have no confidence in the leadership of the development team and I am hesitant to invest the time to respec my hundreds of alts.  I understand why so many of my friends and coalition members are so negative.  It is not that the nerfs are that bad, it is that the developers are spending so much time and effort trying to settle meaningless archetype pissing contests rather than just fixing bugs and adding content.  The game will be just fine if one AT is more damaging or versatile than another, but if the player base begins to dread every new issue waiting for the other shoe to drop it will fall apart fast.

 

 

 

[Auroxis]

8 hours ago, Ratch_ said:

Seeing the brute at dmg cap being ~18% lower vs tanker is pretty sad to see ngl

I messed up the final brute math and didn't include one proc for the brute total, edited the post. It's not as bad.

[Maelwys]

11 hours ago, Auroxis said:

In order to help make things clearer, I did some basic math the best I could. Let me know if I messed anything up:

 

 

Live Tanker unbuffed:

 

Dragon's Tail

124.8682

34.145825

34.145825

34.145825

 

Beta Tanker unbuffed:

 

Dragon's Tail

124.8682

27.6094

27.6094

27.6094

 

Unfortunately the damage figures you're using for Dragon's Tail on Brainstorm are still off quite a bit; because one of the side effects of moving the radius buff out of Gauntlet (a Global Buff) and into the individual attacks is that their base damage gets reduced (an attack's area is included in its damage calculation even before you consider procs!). 

Live:


Brainstorm:




I don't have a level 50 MA Tanker on Live handy; but I do have a level 50 Staff Tanker; and you can see this pretty clearly in their PBAoE (Eye of the Storm):

Live:


Brainstorm:


That's 20.29*6=121.74 on Live; and 15.61*6=93.66 on Brainstorm; for a difference of -28.08  (e.g. 23.07% lower damage dealt; before considering less Proc activations!)


Also; as I've mentioned earlier... Tanker Cone attacks are going to be hit even worse than Tanker PBAoEs because the Overcap damage reduction scaling hits cones much harder (meaning any foes >5 take far less damage than before) and the gauntlet radius changes have reduced the arc of melee cones (meaning that if you are surrounded by foes in melee range it's considerably harder to hit as many of them with the attack as before). Therefore sets that rely more on Cones (like Staff; and Claws, Dual Blades, Mace, Spines, Titan Weapons) are going to be considerably worse off.

And all of that is before you consider Procs - they'll be activating less often and the "overcap" damage reduction applies to damage dealt by procs as well.

Here's two combat log samples of me whacking 16 targets in an AE Fire farm on Brainstorm; with the Purple Proc's effect highlighted:

You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Reactive Interface for 1.54 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 15.49 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 85 points of Fire damage.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 56.95 points of Energy damage.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Reactive Interface for 10.62 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.63 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Reactive Interface for 9.34 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.63 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 74.82 points of Fire damage.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.84 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 75.95 points of Fire damage.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 50.88 points of Energy damage.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Reactive Interface for 9.49 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 7.13 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 39.14 points of Fire damage.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Reactive Interface for 4.88 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 5.34 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 29.36 points of Fire damage.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 19.67 points of Energy damage.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Reactive Interface for 3.66 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 12.68 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 69.6 points of Fire damage.

You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Reactive Interface for 9.34 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.63 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Reactive Interface for 9.34 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 3 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 16.51 points of Fire damage.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 11.06 points of Energy damage.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 2.25 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 12.38 points of Fire damage.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 8.29 points of Energy damage.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Reactive Interface for 1.54 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 7.65 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 28.14 points of Energy damage.
You hit Angelbot v3.1 with your Reactive Interface for 5.24 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 4 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Reactive Interface for 2.74 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.63 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 74.82 points of Fire damage.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage for 50.13 points of Energy damage.
You hit Angelbot v1.1 with your Reactive Interface for 9.34 points of Fire damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Eye of the Storm for 13.63 points of Smashing damage over time.
You hit Angelbot v2.1 with your Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage for 74.82 points of Fire damage.

IMO whilst the min/maxxers are going to find ways to soften the blow; I suspect "regular" Tankers like Shags are going to be suffering the most.

...and all that is why I think these changes; whilst individually perfectly fine; are too heavy-handed when taken collectively.
 

Edited Tuesday at 09:44 AM by Maelwys

[Auroxis]

Thanks @Maelwys ! I fixed the post to include the changes.

[Maelwys]

2 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Thanks @Maelwys ! I fixed the post to include the changes.

Aye those numbers look more like it now.

So purely with an AoE attack; when "Unbuffed" a Brute with Fury and procs has gone from dealing ~24.4% less damage than a Tanker to dealing ~21.9% more than them.
And at the damage cap, a Brute has gone from dealing ~32.6 less damage than a Tanker to dealing ~9.4% damage more than them.
That's a hefty difference to anyone who isn't being Fulcrum Shifted (or Active AE Farming + chugging red insps like candy) - and even then Brutes still "win".

And Tanker Cones are going to be even worse off than that... and Tanker Single Target damage has always been less than the others anyway.

Really not surprising therefore that folk are posting 30%-40%+ increases in Tanker mission clear times...

[Auroxis]

2 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Aye those numbers look more like it now.

So purely with an AoE attack; when "Unbuffed" a Brute with Fury and procs has gone from dealing ~24.4% less damage than a Tanker to dealing ~21.9% more than them.
And at the damage cap, a Brute has gone from dealing ~32.6 less damage than a Tanker to dealing ~9.4% damage more than them.
That's a hefty difference to anyone who isn't being Fulcrum Shifted (or Active AE Farming + chugging red insps like candy) - and even then Brutes still "win".

And Tanker Cones are going to be even worse off than that... and Tanker Single Target damage has always been less than the others anyway.

Really not surprising therefore that folk are posting 30%-40%+ increases in Tanker mission clear times...

Worth noting is that these numbers don't tell the whole picture. Sometimes the extra radius will let you hit more targets than the brute, and epic pool AoE's from Mu Mastery for example still make up for a chunk of your overall damage.

[Maelwys]

46 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

Worth noting is that these numbers don't tell the whole picture. Sometimes the extra radius will let you hit more targets than the brute, and epic pool AoE's from Mu Mastery for example still make up for a chunk of your overall damage.

Oh absolutely agreed on the radius thing - if there are 10 or fewer spread-out targets then the wider radius of the Tanker AoEs can still help.

I'm pretty sure that Epic AoEs are unaffected by the changes though? Ball Lightning and Dark Obliteration on both Brutes and Tanks should still be dealing the same damage as before "unreduced by overcap" to 16 targets over 15ft... I just checked via a /respec on Brainstorm and that seems to be the case. Also Electrifying Fences is still listing a Target Cap of 10 and a radius of 15ft - so it looks like they've (correctly!) not gotten their target cap bumped...

Most of my own Tankers use a combination of Single Target, Cone and AoE attacks (both Secondary Powerset and Epic Pools) over the course of an average mission. With these changes; any Cones and AoEs from their secondary powerset will have their damage drastically reduced; but any Single Target and Epic Pool attacks will be mostly untouched (aside from the +Damage and -Res effect reductions). So realistically there'll be little/no impact to whacking down a single target like a Pylon; but regular mission runs (especially at x8 or when teamed) will be hit very hard - not quite as hard as Tanker AE farming; certainly; but still very hard. Definitely harder than I'm comfortable with.

I want Tankers to be dealing less AoE damage; but I don't want them to become "mechanically obsolete" on teams. And as it stands; if all these changes go live then the benefit of bringing a Tanker over a Brute will be a bit of increased AoE aggro control [due to bigger arcs and target caps] and a bit of additional survivability [due to higher MaxHP and Base Defence/Resist numbers]... at the cost of circa ~20% damage. Which would have been fine and dandy 15 years ago whenever "Aggro-Magnet Immortal-but-Low-Damage Bricks" were still somewhat desirable in CoX; but is almost completely irrelevant in the current state of the game. Sure, for soloing the min/max crowd will still be able to cram a few more damage procs into Tanks than Brutes whilst maintaining the same level of survivability... but for teaming (at least those beyond low-level SO-only PUGs) it hardly ever matters. So I can foresee Tankers only getting a spot on many teams if the leader really likes the player and/or doesn't care about killspeed... which is unfortunate; because that means they'll have simply traded places with Brutes as the "pity spot" melee AT. 
 

Edited Tuesday at 11:19 AM by Maelwys

[Auroxis]

Yeah the epic AoE's are unaffected, so it serves to cushion things a bit. Less relevant to the tanker vs. brute thing and more relevant to the "how slower is my clear speed" thing.

[Excraft]

If procs are the problem, why not limit procs to one per power?  Most META builds I see posted around here and on Discord forego set bonuses in favor of slotting every possible damage proc into an attack.  I've even seen some that are 6 slotting brawl with procs.  Limiting how procs can be slotted would be better than nerfing damage across the board in my opinion.  

[Erratic1]

17 minutes ago, Excraft said:

If procs are the problem, why not limit procs to one per power?  Most META builds I see posted around here and on Discord forego set bonuses in favor of slotting every possible damage proc into an attack.  I've even seen some that are 6 slotting brawl with procs.  Limiting how procs can be slotted would be better than nerfing damage across the board in my opinion.  

 

Procs aren't "the" problem. They contribute to it.

 

And damage is not being nerfed across the board. If you are not facing crowds above the overcap limit, you will not see a difference (this is not to say I agree with the limits as they are, just that your notion of damage being uniformly lowered is wrong).

[Maelwys]

30 minutes ago, Excraft said:

If procs are the problem

I don't think they are.

I mean, procs are A problem; sure; but I don't think they're THE problem in this case of Tankers overperforming other Melee ATs (especially Brutes) for AoE damage.

And to be perfectly honest; the proposed moving of the Radius buffs from Gauntlet into each individual power seems to be reducing the impact of damage procs on Tanker AoEs pretty nicely. By itself that is not too hard a nerf - it's lowering Tanker AoE base damage across the board and lowering proc likelihood in those AoEs at the same time.

The existing implementation of procs is horribly unintuitive (what do you mean slotting local recharge reduces my damage output?!?) and rife with edge cases where powers have required tweaks to reduce activation rates (see: Irradiated Ground, Carrion Creepers, etc.) and frankly it needs napalmed from orbit then whatever's left fed to a leopard.
But it's not a problem that is unique to Tankers.
Patience. The Devs have been attempting to assemble the Horsemen of the Aprocalypse for a good many issues. I'm sure it's coming Soon^TM.
 

Edited Tuesday at 11:55 AM by Maelwys

[tidge]

22 hours ago, skoryy said:

If we're basing off of clear speeds, the next question is how do tanker clear speeds on beta compare to brutes and scrappers?

 

I want to toss this out here as a potential Live v. Beta test: The Penny Yin TF is one I use (Live only) to test performance differences for different ATs (to speed it). Tankers, Scrappers and Stalkers do best, with times typically just over 10 minutes.

 

The times can vary because of the many different enemies that can self-rez, but I find it to be a good measure of a full-kit performance.

[Excraft]

54 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

And damage is not being nerfed across the board.

 

On 5/26/2025 at 7:53 AM, The Curator said:

Self damage buff lowered from 1.0x to 0.875x.

 

Sounds like an across the board damage nerf to me.