Focused Feedback: Issue 28, Page 2 - New Badges

[The Curator]

---

New Badges (21)

Accolade

•  The Prettiest One - Obtain this accolade by earning the following Exploration badges: On The Shoulders of Giants, In Their Prime, Protest Too Much, Fueled by Greed, Raving Mad, Marked Out, Quay to the City and Tourist Trapped.

 

Accomplishment

•  Staring Into The Abyss - Complete Adelard Ziegler's story arc to earn this badge.
•  Business Savvy - Complete Dap-Dap the Deal-Maka's story arc to earn this badge.
•  Front Person - Complete Erin West's story arc to earn this badge.
•  Justified Ends - Complete Robert Kogan's story arc to earn this badge.
•  Thicker than Water - Complete Alexander the Greats's story arc to earn this badge.
•  Generational Trauma - Earned from completing bonus objectives within Adelard Ziegler's story arc.
•  Uncomfortable Truths - Earned from completing bonus objectives within Erin West's story arc.
•  Truth Seeker - Earned from completing bonus objectives within Erin West's story arc.
•  Brass Tax - Earned from completing bonus objectives within Dap-Dap the Deal-Maka's story arc.

 

Defeat

• Two Birds One Stone - Defeat 250 Blackwing Industries enemies to earn this badge.
• Peacekeeper / Peacemaker - Defeat the P.E.A.C.E. Keeper in Kallisti Wharf to earn this badge.

 

Exploration

•  In Their Prime - Explore in Kallisti Wharf to earn this badge.
• Protest Too Much - Explore in Kallisti Wharf to earn this badge.
• Fueled By Greed - Explore in Kallisti Wharf to earn this badge.
• Raving Mad - Explore in Kallisti Wharf to earn this badge.
• Marked Out - Explore in Kallisti Wharf to earn this badge.
• Quay to the City - Explore in Kallisti Wharf to earn this badge.
• Tourist Trapped - Explore in Kallisti Wharf to earn this badge.

 

History

•  Christie Consolidation - Learn more about the brave and bold leadership of Emil Christie.
• Flagtown Memorialist - Learn more about the Flagtown history in Kallisti Wharf.
•  Patron of the Arts - Learn more about Theatre Row and Maxwell Stadium to earn this badge.

 

Badge Adjustments

Changes

•   Dreamwalker / Dreamkiller - Quill and The Unnamed One are now required for this badge. No changes to those who already earned the badge.
• Variety Act - Badge art updated to look more like proper badges.
• License to Chill - Badge art updated to help differentiate Winter events by year (2021).
• Home for the Holidays - Badge art updated to help differentiate Winter events by year (2023).
• Hypothermia - Badge art updated to help differentiate Winter events by year (2024).

 

---

 

[Vanden]

I've put up a Google doc with the locations for the Exploration Badges and History plaques in Kallisti Wharf:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1c0zHgj_WLDMavciT_SQhZDGZsC0hh1iPTb-Lkl9o82Y/edit?usp=sharing

[Lazarillo]

Really? Take the most poorly designed I-Trial badge and add make it even more of a pain?

I get y'all wanna hype up your new monsters, but mayyyyyybe do something about the RNG or the required farming first?

[StarkWhite]

4 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Really? Take the most poorly designed I-Trial badge and add make it even more of a pain?

I get y'all wanna hype up your new monsters, but mayyyyyybe do something about the RNG or the required farming first?

If you read fully you'll note that the trial now selects monsters based on what is most needed by the characters participating.

[Ruin Mage]

They changed how the trial works. I can't find the thread, but now the trial will detect which one is missed the most.

[Lazarillo]

1 minute ago, StarkWhite said:

If you read fully you'll note that the trial now selects monsters based on what is most needed by the characters participating.

You'll have to point it out because I read the notes pretty "fully" as it was and saw nothing, then just to be sure went back and did a find for any other references to "Mayhem", "Nightmares" or the badge names, and still got nothing.

[Ruin Mage]

@Lazarillo "Malaise's Nightmare summons will now dynamically select the nightmare based on which is most needed and hasn't been summoned yet."

[lemming]

39 minutes ago, Ruin Mage said:

 "Malaise's Nightmare summons will now dynamically select the nightmare based on which is most needed and hasn't been summoned yet."

It uses the same logic that the Wedding event uses.   So from a fresh start, should take only six runs to get them all.  My data collection, best I ever got was nine runs and I have couple in the 20s.  (And I've heard of more).

[twozerofoxtrot]

Gonna be honest, still makes an annoying badge to farm more annoying to farm. 

It's like two steps forward, one step back. We could just go two steps forward.

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Gonna be honest, still makes an annoying badge to farm more annoying to farm. 

It's like two steps forward, one step back. We could just go two steps forward.

 

What would you say the odds were of earning the badge from zero progress in exactly six runs before the change?

[lemming]

23 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Gonna be honest, still makes an annoying badge to farm more annoying to farm. 

It's like two steps forward, one step back. We could just go two steps forward.

How?

 

If everyone is missing say Adamaster under the current scheme is ~18.75% (100-100(15/16*14/15*13/14)).    The new method, 100% of getting Adamaster.

 

New method, if you put together a league and run the first mission six times, you'll get the badge.   I don't know anyone who has only had to run it six times currently.  It's mathematically possible, but unlikely.

 

If you are missing one, and everyone else is on a fresh character, you'll get your missing one.

 

And this was tested quite a bit around the time of the spring wedding event.

Edited Wednesday at 09:54 PM by lemming
Gah! Math error, off by 10

[twozerofoxtrot]

52 minutes ago, lemming said:

How?

 

If everyone is missing say Adamaster under the current scheme is ~29% (100-100(15/16*14/15*13/14)).    The new method, 100% of getting Adamaster.

 

New method, if you put together a league and run the first mission six times, you'll get the badge.   I don't know anyone who has only had to run it six times currently.  It's mathematically possible, but unlikely.

 

If you are missing one, and everyone else is on a fresh character, you'll get your missing one.

 

And this was tested quite a bit around the time of the spring wedding event.

 

The point was you can have the script change without adding new kills to the badge.

 

Not that the script change was bad. That's the two steps forward.

[lemming]

43 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

The point was you can have the script change without adding new kills to the badge.

 

Not that the script change was bad. That's the two steps forward.

Prior to the addition of the two, you'd have a minimum of six runs, but probably more like a dozen based on my tests.

 

Now, if a group does it, six runs.   Now if you have a 18 person league that forms up and everyone is missing one GM, well yes, it will take six runs again.  So they'd have 11 runs under the belt in that scenario, and there are some edge cases, but overall, you can get the badge quicker with this change despite two extra GMs.

[jkwak]

sooo the Accomplishment Badges look a bit derpy and dont really fit in with the rest of the game in my opinion
same for the Peacekeeper / Peacemaker badge,
i get that they needed to be somewhat unique for the new content but they stick out a bit to much imo

[twozerofoxtrot]

7 minutes ago, lemming said:

and there are some edge cases,

 

Yeah I guess I don't get why we're introducing that possibility. 

 

Like it's awesome they redesigned it to be faster.

 

But then adding more mobs so it might be less fast? Even in edge cases?

 

Why? What's the point? And why argue for it?

 

 

 

But hey respect that you did all this testing to figure out the averages. I don't even have time do badge farms anymore on live much less run tests on one of the more asinine badges so I appreciate the clarity.

[lemming]

The edge cases would exist anyway without the two additional.  The two additional GMs have no impact on most cases.

 

That example with 18 people missing different GMs?  That's more unlikely than anyone getting the badge now with six runs.   And even the edge case is quicker than the current version.  I really can't see how you see a downside.

[Faultline]

6 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Yeah I guess I don't get why we're introducing that possibility. 

 

Like it's awesome they redesigned it to be faster.

 

But then adding more mobs so it might be less fast? Even in edge cases?

 

Why? What's the point? And why argue for it?

 

You get 3 nightmares per run. There used to be 16 nightmares, so even under absolutely perfect conditions, it would take 6 runs to get the badge, with the last run having two duplicates. 16 isn't divisible by 3.

 

Adding two nightmares brings the number to 18, and the script changes means it'll always take 6 runs, with no duplicates.

 

It's mathematically impossible for the additions to make the badge slower to get. They fit in the gap that would be used by duplicate nightmares otherwise.

[twozerofoxtrot]

2 hours ago, Faultline said:

 

You get 3 nightmares per run. There used to be 16 nightmares, so even under absolutely perfect conditions, it would take 6 runs to get the badge, with the last run having two duplicates. 16 isn't divisible by 3.

 

Adding two nightmares brings the number to 18, and the script changes means it'll always take 6 runs, with no duplicates.

 

It's mathematically impossible for the additions to make the badge slower to get. They fit in the gap that would be used by duplicate nightmares otherwise.

 

Hi thanks for taking the time to respond. It means a lot to have you especially weigh in on this.

 

What if the league makeup isn't consistent? IE people are constantly cycling in and out of the league as they pick up their last need kills and new characters join with fresh slates? I ask because in previous farms I've seen on Everlasting, this exact thing happens often.

 

Would you estimate that the additional two GMs increases the amount of runs over if there were just the original 16?

[Faultline]

13 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Would you estimate that the additional two GMs increases the amount of runs over if there were just the original 16?

 

No. The nightmares are selected based on which ones are needed by the most players in the league, so unless over half the league drops simultaneously, the selection will still be tailored to the remaining players, because they compose the majority of players in the league. And even with over half the league dropping simultaneously, if they're bringing "fresh" characters (that is, ones that don't have any progress), they won't affect the selection at all, because having defeated no nightmares means they won't have any preference for which nightmares are selected.

 

Considering that the previous selection was purely random, there is no scenario in which you're worse off, because you were never guaranteed to get what you needed anyway. If you had 15 out of 16 nightmares, each run was a 18.75% chance of getting you the nightmare you need. You could get unlucky and run 10 trials in a row without seeing that nightmare -- 1/8 chance of that happening.

 

Note that the current (live) selection of nightmares follows a well-known math problem called the "coupon collector's problem" where you ask "if you have a set of N coupons, and you collect them in packs of K at a time, how many packs do you need to open on average to collect the desired number M?" and the solution is a well-known formula; for our scenario (16 "coupons", 3 "received" at a time, you want to collect all 16 "coupons" = average of 17 "draws"). This matches what someone else posted about their best run being 9 and their worst being 20. The new selection system is guaranteed to get you all the nightmares twice as fast, even with the two extra ones in the mix.

 

You can see the exact formula here: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=sum+of+((-1)^(i%2B1)+*+binom+(16%2Ci))+%2F+(1+-+binom+(16-i%2C3)+%2F+binom+(16%2C3))+for+i%3D1..16

 

I wrote a little simulation in order to check what the existing situation is; the result of the formula aligns perfectly with the simulation. With 1000 players going for the badge, this is what happens:

6 runs: 1 players got the badge.
7 runs: 3 players got the badge.
8 runs: 9 players got the badge.
9 runs: 28 players got the badge.
10 runs: 35 players got the badge.
11 runs: 73 players got the badge.
12 runs: 72 players got the badge.
13 runs: 79 players got the badge.
14 runs: 101 players got the badge.
15 runs: 82 players got the badge.
16 runs: 75 players got the badge.
17 runs: 53 players got the badge.
18 runs: 56 players got the badge.
19 runs: 58 players got the badge.
20 runs: 42 players got the badge.
21 runs: 41 players got the badge.
22 runs: 35 players got the badge.
23 runs: 35 players got the badge.
24 runs: 21 players got the badge.
25 runs: 17 players got the badge.
26 runs: 15 players got the badge.
27 runs: 13 players got the badge.
28 runs: 13 players got the badge.
29 runs: 5 players got the badge.
30 runs: 6 players got the badge.
31 runs: 4 players got the badge.
32 runs: 7 players got the badge.
33 runs: 3 players got the badge.
34 runs: 4 players got the badge.
35 runs: 3 players got the badge.
36 runs: 4 players got the badge.
37 runs: 1 players got the badge.
38 runs: 1 players got the badge.
39 runs: 2 players got the badge.
48 runs: 1 players got the badge.
54 runs: 1 players got the badge.
75 runs: 1 players got the badge.
Average: 17.05 runs

You are way more likely to get the badge in more than 30 runs, than to get it in less than 8. Here's the simulation code if you want to try it yourself: https://onecompiler.com/lua/43k4zuuan

[lemming]

1 hour ago, Faultline said:

I wrote a little simulation in order

Thanks for doing that.  I didn't have the spoons to write one up, but it was on my plate. 😉   (And I fixed my previous math issue (typo really))

[Derek Icelord]

Are both Uncomfortable Truths and Truth Seeker from Erin West's arc? Or should one of those be from Robert Kogan's arc (who doesn't have a bonus objective badge listed)?

[Velvet Violet]

21 minutes ago, Derek Icelord said:

Are both Uncomfortable Truths and Truth Seeker from Erin West's arc? Or should one of those be from Robert Kogan's arc (who doesn't have a bonus objective badge listed)?

 

They are both from West, Kogan doesn't have a bonus objective. West is at least an order of magnitude more complicated an arc than Kogan, so it got 2 this time.

[M I Abrahms]

I've stumbled onto Uncomfortable Truths, on my run and given what happens during that, are both bonus badges doable in a single run?

[Faultline]

1 hour ago, M I Abrahms said:

I've stumbled onto Uncomfortable Truths, on my run and given what happens during that, are both bonus badges doable in a single run?

 

Both badges are doable on the same run, but Truth Seeker's requirements are something you may or may not have locked yourself out of.

[Rikmach]

7 hours ago, Faultline said:

 

Both badges are doable on the same run, but Truth Seeker's requirements are something you may or may not have locked yourself out of.

So it's possible to lock yourself permanently out of getting the badge?  Or just lock yourself out of getting it *that run*?