I am done with Brutes

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

The claim was regarding whether the niche is worthwhile, not what the niche is. 

 

Ahh, so 12% more survivability it worth doing 30% or more less damage in your estimation? You find that to be worthwhile distinction.

[Wavicle]

7 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Ahh, so 12% more survivability it worth doing 30% or more less damage in your estimation? You find that to be worthwhile distinction.

 

If I didn't say this earlier that is my mistake, but I may have, I think the Scrapper ATO is clearly broken and OP. But that's where the problem lies. A scrapper WITHOUT that ATO is not outperforming Brutes by anything like 30%.

Is that possibly the common ground upon which we can meet?

Edited 16 hours ago by Wavicle

[Erratic1]

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Similarly, not at all what I was saying. Just a convenient strawman.

 

Don't blame me for your poor choice of English.

 

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

People do invite folks for buffs and healing, of course, but nobody really cares if the person they invite is a "dEdIcAtEd HEALZOR" or a DPS with some buffs.

 

Either you are asking for someone to heal or you're not. Either you are asking for control, or you are not.

 

Yeah, in a lot of content, you don't care who joins and you make do--that is a selling point of the game. Then again, you do face content where people are more demanding, or say things (like what I just saw earlier tonight) asking for, "Holding a spot for someone who can XXXX".

 

But apparently you never see this.

 

Or is that not what you were saying when you wrote:

 

20 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

That's not how this game has EVER worked.

 

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

If I didn't say this earlier that is my mistake, but I may have, I think the Scrapper ATO is clearly broken and OP. But that's where the problem lies. A scrapper WITHOUT that ATO is not outperforming Brutes by anything like 30%.

Is that possibly the common ground upon which we can meet?

 

A couple of things that get missed when arguing full steam about things.

 

I think in most teaming, at least while levelling and in a lot of post-50s content, you simply don't care who shows up. Some part of my argument about roles is based upon what has been said to justify nerfs of the past and role protection (i.e., if Brutes had to be nerfed to safeguard Scrapper role on a team, then why is there absolutely no consideration for Brutes?). As goes actual play...I can probably count on one hand the number of times I have specifically not gotten a spot on a team with someone explicitly saying they were holding a spot for a particular AT/role, though, more often I have seen teams fold far sooner than they should have because when things got difficult with a given combination of ATs some would rather not try working outside the box and adapting to what they have on team.

 

 

As goes Scrapper ATO, I don't have a problem with it. It serves a particular purpose--making Scrapper's damage gods. Moreover, I am not asking for Brutes to do more damage (despite some muddle-headed claims otherwise). I am fine with Brute damage. What I would like to see if a definite something which Brutes bring to the table which is either their own or is better than what can be had elsewhere. As mentioned somewhere (maybe this thread), Corruptors and Defenders occupy more of each other's roles than any other ATs in the game and yet it works because Defenders do have better buffs--not overwhelmingly but notably, and Corruptors do better damage in a notable way while still bringing good buffs. You literally cannot say Brutes are best at anything in the game. The best you can do is partially compare them one AT at a time. 

 

But I also see this is not a hill the developers feel a need to climb and nothing I expect is going to happen.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

As mentioned somewhere (maybe this thread), Corruptors and Defenders occupy more of each other's roles than any other ATs in the game and yet it works because Defenders do have better buffs--not overwhelmingly but notably, and Corruptors do better damage in a notable way while still bringing good buffs. You literally cannot say Brutes are best at anything in the game.

This is where you’re losing me. Corruptors are also literally not the best at anything, Blasters do better damage, Defenders have better buffs. Why is that ok for Corrs but not for Brutes?

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

This is where you’re losing me. Corruptors are also literally not the best at anything, Blasters do better damage, Defenders have better buffs. Why is that ok for Corrs but not for Brutes?

 

Yeah, but Corruptors/Defender do not exist on a spectrum of others doing their combination of things--they are the buff/damage (or damage/buff) ATs. Brutes exist in a realm of Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tankers and are not the best at anything in that grouping.

[Wavicle]

14 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Yeah, but Corruptors/Defender do not exist on a spectrum of others doing their combination of things--they are the buff/damage (or damage/buff) ATs. Brutes exist in a realm of Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tankers and are not the best at anything in that grouping.

 

I don't agree with that, which we've been over.

Defenders and Corruptors have exactly the same relationship as Tankers and Brutes and always have. (Aside from the last couple years on HC, where Tankers were buffed too much.)

Edited 16 hours ago by Wavicle

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

 

I don't agree with that, which we've been over.

Defenders and Corruptors have exactly the same relationship as Tankers and Brutes and always have. (Aside from the last couple years on HC, where Tankers were buffed too much.)

 

So you're ignoring the existence of Stalker and Scrapper all together?

 

They do damage, they have armor sets, they get Taunt.

 

Why are you ignoring that they exist?

[Wavicle]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

 

So you're ignoring the existence of Stalker and Scrapper all together?

 

They do damage, they have armor sets, they get Taunt.

 

Why are you ignoring that they exist?

 

Stalkers do not get taunt.

Scrappers sometimes get weak taunt auras, basically never actually take their single target taunt, and do not get any punchvoke. They have lower HP and lower resistance caps. They are not tanks. I don't think any of them should have taunt auras, and you'll notice the newest Scrapper armor sets do not.

We weren't "ignoring" Controllers and Masterminds when we compared Corrs and Defs, and we aren't "ignoring" Scrappers and Stalkers now. 

[Erratic1]

11 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Stalkers do not get taunt.

 

You're right, they don't. I get to thinking of them as the same (largely because I rarely play them--only have two).

 

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Scrappers sometimes get weak taunt auras, basically never actually take their single target taunt, and do not get any punchvoke. They have lower HP and lower resistance caps. They are not tanks. I don't think any of them should have taunt auras, and you'll notice the newest Scrapper armor sets do not.

 

And Punchvoke only works on what you are hitting, unlike say splashing aggro on anything nearby that you are hitting.

 

Lower resistance caps are only meaningful in that, with a similar build, a Brute is going to push past 75%--that is a tall order for a Brute playing a Defense set, say like Super Reflexes. Heck, my Regen Tanker, has not, at level 50 and with IO sets fully slotted, reached resistance cap, and that is with Tankers getting more resistances/defenses than any other melee AT--something Brutes DO NOT GET.

 

As for newest sets, has there been some sort of proliferation going on that I missed? Is there some set Brutes get that Scrapper do not? Psi Armor has a Mez field, but it works the same for both ATs so far as I am aware.

 

 

 

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Psi Armor has a Mez field, but it works the same for both ATs so far as I am aware.

 

It does not. The Brute gets Taunt in two different toggles, the Scrapper in zero.

And I believe a dev statement a while back said something about no new Scrapper armor getting a taunt aura, but I'm sure I couldn't find it.

Edited 15 hours ago by Wavicle

[Erratic1]

20 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

It does not. The Brute gets Taunt in two different toggles, the Scrapper in zero.

 

Fine, so you found one armor where there is a difference. That utterly makes a difference in the spectrum of things. 🙄

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Fine, so you found one armor where there is a difference. That utterly makes a difference in the spectrum of things. 🙄

 

Uh, no.

Dark
Electric

Fire

Ice

Psionic

Regeneration

Stone
Super Reflexes

(and when Brutes eventually have it, Ninjitsu)

are all sets that do not have Taunt auras on Scrappers but do on Brutes.

 

And even though their punchvoke is not as good as Tankers, Brutes all have it and Scrappers do not. Yes, they have to hit stuff, or use Taunt, or get close, but it's more than Scrappers have. So that's all Scrappers.

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

Uh, no.

Dark
Electric

Fire

Ice

Psionic

Regeneration

Stone
Super Reflexes

(and when Brutes eventually have it, Ninjitsu)

are all sets that do not have Taunt auras on Scrappers but do on Brutes.

 

And even though their punchvoke is not as good as Tankers, Brutes all have it and Scrappers do not. Yes, they have to hit stuff, or use Taunt, or get close, but it's more than Scrappers have. So that's all Scrappers.

 

I never said all sets had taunt. Was speaking about the ones that do.

 

And again, a spectrum like said: Tanker Survive the best, Taunt the best, and deal (in theory) the least damage--Brutes Survive second best, taunt second best, and damage third best, Scrappers/Stalkers Survive the least (not that it does not allow them to solo +4x8, solo TF, etc), taunt the least, and have the best damage.

 

Now I used the word "best" with regard to which ATs and which singular AT did not get the word "best"?

[Wavicle]

7 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I never said all sets had taunt. Was speaking about the ones that do.

 

And again, a spectrum like said: Tanker Survive the best, Taunt the best, and deal (in theory) the least damage--Brutes Survive second best, taunt second best, and damage third best, Scrappers/Stalkers Survive the least (not that it does not allow them to solo +4x8, solo TF, etc), taunt the least, and have the best damage.

 

Now I used the word "best" with regard to which ATs and which singular AT did not get the word "best"?

 

I guess so, but it's irrelevant. There is no rule that says an AT must be the best at something to be useful and good overall. Being second best at two things is still really good.

Brutes are better than Tankers at one thing, and better than Scrappers at two things. That is sufficient as long as they can fill their primary team roles, which are to tank and do damage, which they do. They DON'T have to be better than BOTH Tankers and Scrappers at some hypothetical fourth thing in order to justify their existence.

Edited 14 hours ago by Wavicle

[Erratic1]

21 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I guess so, but it's irrelevant.

 

So first it wasn't true. Then after argument it is true but not relevant. Except, the starting point was the following:

 

Quote

What I would like to see if a definite something which Brutes bring to the table which is either their own or is better than what can be had elsewhere.

 

I said it was what I would like to see.

 

24 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

There is no rule that says an AT must be the best at something to be useful and good overall.

 

There is no rule that says Tankers have to be able to deal damage at all. They could be just invulnerable targets which taunt. Would you say to someone who said that sucks, "There is no rule, blah, blah, blah?"

 

Nothing says anything you say is true either.

 

 

Had enough of this and going to bed.

[Spaghetti Betty]

I feel compelled to weigh in on this since 4* was mentioned!

 

Let me start off by saying that in terms of top end 4* optimization, Tankers have always been mostly irrelevant! And I'm saying this as a Tanker main! Brutes were always considered over them due to having better single target performance and still possessing an AoE Taunt and taunt aura! It's all that's really required at that level, as trash mobs still melt fast (just not instantly), and the only thing that really stands up long enough to be worth taunting are AVs! To even further this point, exceptionally skilled teams can do with having a Scrapper in that role to optimize DPS on AVs. Tankers at least were looked at positively when they were doing Blaster AoEs before the fix, but some of the 4* enjoyers I talk to now say they're pretty much abandoning the AT again.

 

I think the point I'm trying to get across is mentioning 4* as a point of balance is mainly a non-sequitur, as quite a few ATs struggle to find a place there as it is! If anything, it kind of emphasizes the fact that Brutes have always been the optimal pick over a Tank!

[Maelwys]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Brutes are better than Tankers at one thing, and better than Scrappers at two things. That is sufficient as long as they can fill their primary team roles, which are to tank and do damage, which they do. They DON'T have to be better than BOTH Tankers and Scrappers at some hypothetical fourth thing in order to justify their existence.

 

I think this might be the point of disconnect, so to tease my view out a bit...

 

Let's take Corruptors. As you noted earlier, they have a Blast set yet less base damage than a Blaster; and they have a support set yet lower base buff/debuff/healing values than a Defender.

So all else being equal, why would a team ever desire a Corruptor over either a Blaster (if they're after damage) or a Defender (if they're after buffs/debuffs/healing)?

The answer is partly due to "role stacking": Teams tend to value both high AoE damage and high buff/debuff numbers... but one Defender and one Blaster combined tends to result in less overall damage and buffage/debuffage than two Corruptors. And partly due to the Corruptor Scourge inherent: if you're in a situation where normally a significant chunk of the team's time would be spent fighting things that have 50% HP or below (like in 4* content, especially Boss fights) then Corruptor damage output will skyrocket and vastly reduce your clear times.

 

Now take Brutes. As things stand, a Brute can inflict reasonable amounts of damage (since i28p2 more than a Tanker, but not as much as Scrappers or Stalkers) and hold aggro and withstand punishment (better than a Scrapper but not as well as a Tanker).

So all else being equal, why would a team ever desire a Brute over a Scrapper (if they're after damage with a bit of aggro control) or a Tanker (if they're after solid aggro control and tanking)?

Unfortunately I'm not aware of any scenarios in current CoX content that require two melee ATs tanking targets independently (like constantly surrounded by two aggro cap's worth of targets, or multiple AVs/GMs who become invulnerable when near each other). So two melee ATs are never required (and even in those hypothetical scenarios I imagine most teams would just CC half the adds and Immobilize the superfluous AVs/GMs instead of trying to facetank them all simultaneously!).

Most teams either want something that can solidly hold aggro (so you're just there to take the alpha and clump up the targets for them between nukes, the damage you dish out is almost irrelevant) or an additional source of damage with a side of aggro control (so you're there to deal damage, and maybe clump targets a tiny bit and/or hold the attention of the occasional AV/GM)... and whilst Brutes can fulfill both of those functions mechanically-speaking they are not the most optimal choice for either. So they're lacking a niche that sufficiently sets them apart to make them an optimal choice of teammate in even very specific content.

 

Now it's worth pointing out that I agree that this issue with Brutes is almost entirely down to the performance disparity in the Melee AT ATOs. But I don't think that Scrapper and Stalker and Tanker ATOs necessarily need nerfed - buffing the Brute ones (alongside rebalancing ATOs for other ATs!!) would work as long as they can be made to almost deal as much damage as Scrappers/Stalkers and survive almost as much punishment as a Tanker. Or the Brute ATOs could be tweaked to increase team performance instead in order to allow Brutes to bring something new to the table that specific team compositions might find desirable enough to take them over a Scrapper/Tanker.

Alternatively, another way to approach it might be to adjust Fury so that Brutes deal more damage as enemy hit points decrease (so they'd become mechanically better at raw damage output in the same situations as Corruptors)... but that would likely still result in them being sub optimal in everything outside of 4* Boss fights, and without tying it to the ATOs it would throw off the balance at lower levels before you're IO'd out.

 

In short: Brutes don't seem to ever be a mechanically optimal choice of teammate on larger teams, for any content, especially once ATOs are considered. And I think that is a problem. However when soloing or on very small teams or before everyone is IOed out IMO they're perfectly fine.

[Maelwys]

49 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

To even further this point, exceptionally skilled teams can do with having a Scrapper in that role to optimize DPS on AVs. 

 

This right here is the problem as I see it in a nutshell. 

 

Even in the content where you might expect a Brute's particular balance of Survivability, Aggro Control and Damage Output to make them the most mechanically worthwhile pick... Scrappers actually still win. Brutes just make it safer or require less skill to pull it off (which to be fair can help make things more fun... but the performance disparity still exists!!)

[tidge]

8 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

🙄

 

Hit Points - Unofficial Homecoming Wiki

 

Brutes have, at base, 1.4/1.25 = 12% more hp than a Scrapper. Powers and buffs (TFC, IO set bonuses) which increase health provide the Brute 12% more hp than the Brute. So if a Scrapper achieves 1600 hp, a similarly built Brute would have 1792 hp.

 

Brutes can have +9% HP if they 3x 2-slot Superior Brutes Fury... is this what you mean?

[Erratic1]

23 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Brutes can have +9% HP if they 3x 2-slot Superior Brutes Fury... is this what you mean?

 

Yes.