Focused Feedback: Plant Control

[WindDemon21]

On 6/4/2025 at 12:47 PM, mistagoat said:

Creepers is a bit underwhelming, you just don't get the amount of tentacles as on live. Regardless of the damage values it feels diminished.

I assume we're still waiting for a patch to fix the creeper spawn rate. Cause if they ruin my field of creeper vines all hell is breaking loose.

 

Edit: Because all those vines, are, without a doubt, my favorite thing on my favorite toon. Do not go live without fixing the spawn rate!

Edited June 5 by WindDemon21

[LastHumanSoldier]

2 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I assume we're still waiting for a patch to fix the creeper spawn rate. Cause if they ruin my field of creeper vines all hell is breaking loose.

It will top out to the same.  Try it on 0 or +1x8.  Just spawns slower.

 

Check out the video earlier.

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

It will top out to the same.  Try it on 0 or +1x8.  Just spawns slower.

 

Check out the video earlier.

Spawning slower, is still affecting the spawn rate. It needs fixed before it goes live.

[mistagoat]

2 minutes ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

It will top out to the same.  Try it on 0 or +1x8.  Just spawns slower.

 

Check out the video earlier.

In my admittedly brief testing, I couldn't get more than 5 to show up. The same spawn on live got me 8.

Are you seeing more than 5 spawning on Beta?

[LastHumanSoldier]

The issue is if you play on anything above plus 2 or Higher they often will die because of the smaller number of creeper spawns.  Keep thr diff low and use tactics it will get there just much Slower.

 

I tested it on a plant Kin

Edited June 5 by LastHumanSoldier
Dictation was bad.

[WindDemon21]

4 minutes ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

The issue is if you play on anything above plus 2 or Higher they often will die because of the smaller number of creeper spawns.  Keep thr diff low and use tactics it will get there just much Slower.

 

I tested it on a plant Kin

You just described exacty why they need to FIX the creeper spawn rate and why it must not be nerfed. They die when there are a lot of them but spawning faster and more plentifully keeps them up en-masse for effectiveness and more importantly chaotic fun. "less but stronger" to which they aren't stronger anyway, is just not it. MORE AND FASTER!

[LastHumanSoldier]

On the same page.  The goal of the changes this page was to cut down plant (pun intended).

 

Its not ever going to be what it is on prod server, its not a refuse burn anymore but it is weaker than it was, and you have to take more powers now to maintain some of the controls you used to get from just creepers and seeds.

 

This was the goal though.

I am trimming plant from my roster personally.

[WitchofDread]

Yes I shall also, like many, be shelving my plant toons.

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

On the same page.  The goal of the changes this page was to cut down plant (pun intended).

 

Its not ever going to be what it is on prod server, its not a refuse burn anymore but it is weaker than it was, and you have to take more powers now to maintain some of the controls you used to get from just creepers and seeds.

 

This was the goal though.

I am trimming plant from my roster personally.

The seeds change along is such a huge nerf that it solves that, they even lowered it's duration AGAIN to keep the 16 targets (which is unwavering in how it needs to stay 16) but even then 12 scalar was too low of a nerf to it, but to go down to an 8 scalar!?

 

Creepers were also already hit with proc-nerfs, so they're fine and need to stay at the original spawn rate. That's like, honestly wholly the fun of plant, and it can' not be nerfed, supposedly is still a bug anyway? but must be fixed before it goes to live!

[LastHumanSoldier]

I just noticed all the old feedback gas been cleared!

 

The context is that the creepers you are seeing is the fixed version.

 

The intital candidate patch hard capped them to 5. This rate is the new fixed rate and "upped" damage.

[Vinceq98]

Y'all must be doing something wrong. My plant storm controller was steam rolling MALTAs at 53x8.  I never did that on live because if I had a critical failure from seeds I was dead from the mobs. Spirit tree , spore burst and seeds I was cruising along and killing so damn fast. I made a video of my test character just deleting spawns on the open beta build 4 thread. 

[Caimie]

I've been messing around with my level 50 Plant/Ice/Ice Perma-Dom Dominator that I transferred to Brainstorm this morning.

I pulled out my 5 piece Unbreakable Constraint from Vines and slotted 5 piece Ragnarok (didn't use the Proc from either one)

I then slotted Cupid's Crush into Creepers, since that skill already had 6 slots in it (I originally had 5 piece Ragnarok in it with the Posi blast Proc as the only proc)

While I do have Ice Storm on this character, I never used it because I wanted to see what the latest version of Vines and Creepers are like for a Dominator, but for some reason whey I summon Creepers the combat log states I activated Ice Storm power. (screen clip shows what I'm talking about)

(A side note on Creepers is that if you summon it, defeat a group them and go to the next then jump over the group, the pseudo pet aggro the group and they turn and attack you)
The Creeper vine summon is still slow and the fact the first vine it summons does nothing as far as grabbing the mobs attention before the others spawn defeats the main purpose that I used Creepers for. 

I don't expect Creepers to do the proc bombed damage it can do on Live, but it does need to be turned up a couple notches at least.  I prefer the way it summons on Live, but if that isn't going to happen, at least consider giving it's vines a bit more robustness and the initial summoning vine a taunt to fill the summoning gap between it and the rest of the vines.
 

The AOE Vine Hold change with the rotating holds don't care for at all, on a Dominator. 

The increased damage is a nice addition, but not really noticeable.

I only found it moderately useful if I summoned Creepers first then used Vines.  The combo seemed to work 'ok' together, but it's not very efficient.  The old Vines is a better version in my opinion. 

 

I don't have Spores, Flytrap or Spirit Tree in this Dominator's build (it's my only Plant/ alt I have ), so I can't really comment on those 3 Skills.

 

Edit:  I should note that the screen clip is from me messing with some Warrior groups on my way to do Chip's introduction mission that had +3 lvl x 4 group size Blackwing with Bosses (sometimes multiple Bosses) in the groups.

Edited June 5 by Caimie

[Ratch_]

Clear video comparison on the same AE mish. First clip is live, second is beta server. Plant control now has increased versatility, the damage has taken a hit though.

Creepers is slotted with procs in both vids. Last slot is purple +5 acc/rech

Edited June 5 by Ratch_

[LastHumanSoldier]

1 hour ago, Ratch_ said:

Clear video comparison on the same AE mish. First clip is live, second is beta server. Plant control now has increased versatility, the damage has taken a hit though.

Creepers is slotted with procs in both vids. Last slot is purple +5 acc/rech

You should do one more where you slot for damage/recharge on the creepers. I didn't find procs very impactful on my Plan/Kin (though the kin might throw it off)

Creeper spawn rate looks fine in the beta video too. About what I see.

 

 

Edited June 5 by LastHumanSoldier

[Ratch_]

2 hours ago, LastHumanSoldier said:

You should do one more where you slot for damage/recharge on the creepers. I didn't find procs very impactful on my Plan/Kin (though the kin might throw it off)

Creeper spawn rate looks fine in the beta video too. About what I see.

 

 

With 3 procs and two +5 dmg IOs it's a bit faster. However it's also within the margin of error - getting about 20-30 seconds faster with this so I do think it's better. Nothing game changing though

Edited June 6 by Ratch_

[Caimie]

After messing around on my Dominator a bit more, I'm still getting Creepers with the initial 1 vine then the delay then the rest appear and it's never been more than 5 vines.

 

I guess I also have a question aimed at the Devs regarding Creepers:

  Was there any consideration or talk of keeping the spawning the same as it is on Live but only changing it so that Pet IO sets can be slotted into it (so proc bombing couldn't be possible) and then adjusting it's damage modifiers down or up (depending on Controller or Dominator) to bring into an acceptable realm? 

 

I don't play Controllers, so I can't speak from that perspective, but the Seeds changes are acceptable and I can make them work.

 

The Vines change with rotating holds doesn't cut it, sorry.  It's now more like a 'Creepers Lite with only 10 Calories'.  I prefer the original version with the adaptable recharge and if it's damage was lacking, just bring it up to par with the other AOE Holds.

Edited June 6 by Caimie

[victusfate]

I'm trying to keep an open mind. Working on figuring out new builds for my plant trollers and my new plant/thorns dom to adapt to the changes. Appreciate all those testing more thoroughly than myself (just tried a bit of AE for the initial build and logged off a little disappointed).

 

quick summary:

- can still skip spores?

- replace damage procs from creepers for a damage set

- plant pet is a bit tankier! - take that jack frost you are the weakest link!

- vines is weird control/damage now 

- pull with seeds and tree is ok

- spam roots (I like the extra pet spawner in it, fiery orb, or energy font)

 

 

[mistagoat]

7 hours ago, Caimie said:

Was there any consideration or talk of keeping the spawning the same as it is on Live but only changing it so that Pet IO sets can be slotted into it (so proc bombing couldn't be possible) and then adjusting it's damage modifiers down or up (depending on Controller or Dominator) to bring into an acceptable realm? 

This would be my preferred solution. The proc bombing was the only complaint I ever heard about the power so just fix that aspect of the power and leave the rest as it stands.

[WindDemon21]

Right. Again, DO NOT change anything about the spawn rate of creepers. Nerf the proc damage i'm more than fine with as long as that isn't touched.

 

Also, please consider making spirit tree ( and don't forget triage beacon too) to have the higher regen 250% is fine so slight nerf compared to double, but be non-stackable, and last a little longer as well, the 90s was fine, but since you can't stack it honestly even 120s would be nice for it's duration, and lower the recharge more to about 60s since again, it's not stacking, but then can be used more often when needed. But the current iteration is really annoying in long fights keeping it up and having to spam it more to keep the same regen. For tree and triage, this would go very far to helping its versatility and just plain not be annoying too in the process in the long battles where these powers are meant to shine more.

 

And yeah, bump seeds duration a little, going down to 8 scalar (thanks for the target cap fix btw), but 8 scalar is still way too low.

[Riverdusk]

I'll still always beat the drum for the ST immobilizes to have their damage sped up or buffed.  Right now entangle is still the most skippable power as just taking something like arcane bolt beats it in value.

 

Vines might be the other most skippable now, but that's not really different from live where I also usually skipped it.

 

Otherwise looks pretty good I think.  With the changes I might give a plant/storm a try again on live, storm makes up for the bit of damage hit plant has taken.  Plant now brings more control options and a bit more reliable self sustain that storm lacks (spirit tree being up more often).  

[Rastille]

People here have done a great job documenting and arguing for key issues. Seeds seems okay now, spore burst is viable, and spirit tree has a new role.

Excellent points that Carrion Creepers should not be double- or triple-nerfed. If they are going to be weaker, it's better if they can at least appear fast?

And totally agree that a big remaining issue seems to be Vines. It feels tragic as just a patch-of-maybe on the ground. Feels like a particularly big slap to dominators. I agree with the idea of increasing the domination chance to at least 50%.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Hello everyone,

 

Want to take a minute to explain the Carrion Creeper in more detail. The power was not nerfed itself. It is a complicated power to explain but I'll do my best here:

 

What follows is a bit overly-detailed so a TLDR here: 

The spawn rate of vines has not been lowered. Only the ability creeper's summoning powers to proc in addition to the pets it summon. 

 

 

Creepers is a pet with 3 "offensive" powers. 

• Carrion Creepers
  • Only hits dead foes, is Auto Hit, this has not changed.
  • Can hit up to 10 corpses in a 20ft radius, this has not changed.
  • Pulses every 10 seconds, this has not changed.
  • Creates another pet that does a one-shot AoE.
    • This pet can hit up to 5 targets, dead or alive.
      • This was changed, it no longer hit dead foes, meaning corpses wont be eating up potential living target spaces. This is a buff.
    • It would apply damage to these targets as well as an immob, this has not changed.
    • On controllers, this attack now has a 33.3% chance at triggering containment damage
    • It could trigger procs in the Damage and Immob categories at spawn.
      • This has not changed, it still can trigger these procs.
  • Live this power could trigger procs in Damage and Immob categories every 10 seconds
    • This power no longer trigger procs. It was hitting dead foes only, but it does mean it could spawn Energy Font. 
• Vines
  • Only hits living foes, is Auto Hit, this has not changed.
  • Can hit up to 10 living foes in a 20ft radius, this has not changed.
  • Pulses every 10 seconds, this has not changed.
  • Has a 50% chance to create a Vine pet when it hits them, this has not changed.
    • The vine pet has two attacks that inflict single target damage
      • Vine Thorns
        • Hits a single foe, requires an accuracy check, this has not changed.
        • Applies scale 0.1 damage, 0.1 scale DoT and a slow debuff, this has not changed.
        • Live this power could trigger procs in the Slow and Damage categories, this has not changed.
        • On controllers, this attack now has a 33.3% chance at triggering containment damage
      • Vine Smash
        • Hits a single foe, requires an accuracy check, this has not changed.
        • Applies scale 0.2 damage, 0.1 scale DoT and knockback to a single target, this has not changed.
        • Live this power could trigger procs in the KB and Damage categories, this has not changed.
        • On controllers, this attack now has a 33.3% chance at triggering containment damage
  • Live this power could trigger procs in Damage, Knockback and Slow categories every 10 seconds
    • This power no longer trigger procs.
• Bramble
  • Hits living foes and is Auto Hit, this has not changed.
  • Can hit up to 16 targets in a 20ft radius, this has not changed.
  • Pulses every 0.2 seconds, this has not changed.
  • Applies slow to all targets, this has not changed.
  • Live this power could trigger procs in the Slow category, this has not changed.

 

So basically, the only changes to "lower proc cascade" was to stop powers that existed only to summon other entities from triggering procs, but these entities themselves continue to proc as they always have.

 

The spawn rate of vines was not changed, but seeing how it can hit 10 foes and it has a 50% chance to spawn a vine, it has always been heavily RNG bound. 50% is a very middle of the road value that can yield drastic impact difference use to use, so it's highly advised that while testing the changes you try a high sample.

 

Sorry for the overly long post, but it's hard to explain how this power work, or the exact nature of the changes. This is why the exact details are not part of the patch notes.

[Uun]

On 6/4/2025 at 6:30 PM, Uun said:

• Current iteration of Seeds feels OK. Recharges fast enough that it can be reapplied if it wears off or get adds. 
• Pulled the %dmg procs from Carrion Creepers and 5-slotted Bombardment (sans proc). Not really noticing a difference in damage from the prior beta builds (which had 3 %dmg procs) and CC is now perma with the additional recharge.
• Spore Burst is working as described, but it doesn't really have enough duration with just 1 acc/mez HO. Doesn't play well with Carrion Creepers.
• Spirit Tree is holding aggro better. Slotting it for healing isn't worthwhile as the +regen buff isn't strong enough. Will try slotting for threat. 
• Vines is useful for deploying around corners and other locations where you can't get line of sight with Seeds. Would like to see its chance for Domination increased to 50%.
• Don't have Fly Trap in this build so haven't tested the changes yet. Looking at the stats, it lists resistance to sonic, radiation and electrical damage in addition to energy resistance. Do those stack? Not sure whether to drop Spore Burst or Spirit Tree in favor of Fly Trap.

Respecced again (3rd time for this character on this beta). Added Fly Trap back, moved slots from Spirit Tree to Fly Trap. 

• Fly Trap definitely sturdier now. No longer being defeated every spawn. Not really noticing a difference in its AI.
• Not seeing a delay in Carrion Creepers spawning, but they do seem to be capped at 5 vines. I'm OK with their current performance.
• Spirit Tree is much sturdier now and works well as an opener (before using Seeds).

[MC333]

Quote

Fly Trap

• AI mode changed from Pet_Base to Pet_Ranged.
• Resistances have been improved
• Pet should use Smash more often if in range (but maybe not, pets dont always listen... not even to us)

 

Can you shed some light on the goals regarding the changes to:

• AI modes Pet_Base and Pet_Ranged
• Bite  (I am assuming "Smash" above is a typo for "Bite")   

For example:

• Should Fly Trap charge into melee range less often?  At all?
• Should Fly Trap be using Bite frequently when it is already within melee range?

 

Fly Trap testing observations - Open Beta 5 (Level 50 Controller and Dominator, solo testing)

• Fly Trap behavior seems somewhat inconsistent, in limited testing time. 
• At Range, Fly Trap on average appears to be using more ranged attacks according to observation and combat logs.
•      However, Fly Trap still frequently charges into melee range to use Bite. 
• In Melee range, Fly Trap does use Bite at times (when already in melee range).
•      However, Fly Trap often does not use Bite at all when in melee range (instead logs show it using 3-5 ranged attacks from melee range to finish off enemy).
• Total number of Bite attacks as % of overall attacks appears to be noticably lower than on Live server in combat logs for a handful of fights on each server.  (Caveat: limited sample, various different enemy groups)
• The damage resistance improvements seem generally appropriate for a mostly ranged pet (or a bit on the low side if the pet will continue to charge into melee range).
• Controller pet controls are a very nice addition - controlling Fly Trap worked well in limited testing.

 

If possible I'd like to see Fly Trap using Bite (consistently) only when it finds itself in melee range (versus charging in to use Bite).  Eliminating the charging into melee, along with the moderate increase in damage resistances, would likely result in a more survivable and competitive Fly Trap compared to other pets.

Edited June 8 by MC333

[csr]

2 hours ago, MC333 said:

• Total number of Bite attacks as % of overall attacks appears to be noticably lower than on Live server in combat logs for a handful of fights on each server.  (Caveat: limited sample, various different enemy groups)
• The damage resistance improvements seem generally appropriate for a mostly ranged pet (or a bit on the low side if the pet will continue to charge into melee range).

This was basically the same as I saw in testing.  The increased inclination to stay at range has helped with survival, but lowered its DPS since Bite does nearly 40% more DPS than its other attacks.  Then even when it does decide to run in and Bite it doesn't use Bite every chance it gets.  So Fly Trap is a poor DPS pet with lousy CC, below average survivability and average mobility (at best).  Its only real plus compared to other pets is the -Def.  I'm not sure if that's really enough.