Enemy Difficulty through the Ages

[skoryy]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

That's a point that's often raised, but in my estimation, it's a perspective inapplicable to the broader game.  In Paragon City, running story arcs, scanner missions, tips, most of the content does feel unbalanced.  It's easy.  And when it's not easy, we can opt out and find something to fight that is easy.  Malta?  Nah, dawg, ain't nobody got time for that.  Queue up that Council mish.

 

(Is this where I say Malta's actually easier now than Council? At least Gunslingers stay down!)

[Maelwys]

10 hours ago, skoryy said:

(Is this where I say Malta's actually easier now than Council? At least Gunslingers stay down!)

I used to love Sappers. And Shadow Cysts! They were barely a threat if you had one whit of sense (my human form PB used to solo the little terror-inducing purple fluffballs for shiggles) but it always seemed to stop the half-asleep steamrolling PUG team dead in its tracks. Heaven forbid you actually have to target something... 🙄

[ZemX]

11 hours ago, Luminara said:

That's a point that's often raised, but in my estimation, it's a perspective inapplicable to the broader game.

 

Your reply is all about difficulty, which is not really what I was getting on about at all.  My bad if that wasn't clear.  I am talking about balance between archetypes mainly.  I am not quibbling with IOs and Incarnates making people more powerful.  That's entirely the point of that "lateral progression" system you mentioned: Making characters more powerful without increasing level.

 

My point is that they could have chosen to keep the ATs distinct by having the IO system enhance instead of add bonuses.  Just like the  Alpha Slot.  But the rest of the Incarnate system would have been better off with AT-specific powers.  It was of course easier to just give everyone the same stuff, but it's also more boring.

[ZemX]

20 hours ago, FupDup said:

I'm going to counter-argue that most set bonuses are ultimately rendered obsolete by team buffs and/or insps.

 

The counter-counter argument is economics.  If there were no value in soft-capping anything, nobody would be doing it.   But really, come on.  Your counter-argument here depends on always having those buffs on a team, always having them applied consistently, etc.  The obvious reason people build for anything at all is self-sufficiency.  These ARE the minimums I can count on when I can count on nobody else.  That has value.  Before IOs, if you wanted that, you needed to invite it onto your team.

 

Obviously if you are on some sort of regular team where you know what will be available, you can specialize more.  This is particularly true on Incarnate level teams where everyone is walking around with stupidly good team buffs.  This is why I included Incarnate powers in my accusation about what has destroyed balance between ATs in this game.  

[ryuplaneswalker]

On 7/20/2025 at 10:16 PM, Luminara said:

 

That's a point that's often raised, but in my estimation, it's a perspective inapplicable to the broader game.  In Paragon City, running story arcs, scanner missions, tips, most of the content does feel unbalanced.  It's easy.  And when it's not easy, we can opt out and find something to fight that is easy.  Malta?  Nah, dawg, ain't nobody got time for that.  Queue up that Council mish.

 

One of the complaints about the Rogue Isles is that the enemies are harder to defeat.  Arachnos, Longbow, PPD, groups like these hit harder than, and don't fall over as easily as, something like Freakshow.  Even with IOs, they can become overwhelming.  And look at Praetoria.  It's even less popular than the Rogue Isles.  Yes, it has a number of limitations that hinder its appeal, but one of the big reasons is that the enemies aren't pushovers.  Go running full-tilt into a +4/x8 spawn of Drudges, Awakened or Resistance and you may be having a very bad day, even with a fantastic build.  We have to dial it down, watch our aggro, split spawns, play smarter.

 

The game with IOs feels unbalanced against some enemy groups, but not against others... if we choose to fight them.  The balance for IOs is in the game, it's just not utilized because it's not mandated.  Most of us don't pursue it.  We're comfortable in our blue zone.  Hell, people fought the developers when they buffed the Council and CoT, because they were easy and fast.  So I don't think we can say IOs broke game balance when we deliberately avoid the enemies which are capable of defeating us even when we're fully kitted out with IOs.

I feel the need to point out that Red/Gold side don't have the clear ladder of team based content that Blue Side has, Blueside you can go straight up the Task Force Commander Chain, with a few side bits like Moonfire to fill out levels if you need a level to unlock Manticore or Numia.

 

Redside does not have that and the Content it does have has..more annoying bits, Sure Silver Mantis is shorter than Old Sister Psyche..but the "kill 150 turrets" to make Durray appear is an awful experience, as is the Leviathan Room. 

[MoonSheep]

On 7/18/2025 at 4:03 AM, Luminara said:

 

How we use IOs now was always the intended goal.  Both Cryptic and Paragon were convinced that the key to the game's longevity was lateral progression, allowing players to continue to develop their characters without level cap increases and content churn.  Seeing as we're here, now, playing the game and still talking about it after 20+ years, they were clearly on to something.

 

The enormous difficulty of acquiring IOs back then, though, seriously hindered their plans.  Hyperinflation skewed prices within days of IOs and the player market being added to the game, and they were positively sluggish in their response.  They spent the remainder of the game's live run adding things or making adjustments, then spending long periods just... waiting, hoping the problem would fix itself.  It never did, until HC picked up the gauntlet and made some major changes.

 

So did HC's changes "break the game"?  No, not really.  Easier access to converters/catalysts, bucketing in the market, these things definitely made IOs significantly more accessible, but all they really did was remove the hyperinflation barrier that kept most players from using them.  And they were right to do so, because as I said, this was always the plan.  We weren't supposed to be at the mercy of flippers who kept driving prices upward on cornered IOs and recipes.  Character growth wasn't supposed to be restricted to the wealthiest or luckiest.  Unchecked inflation wasn't supposed to be a control on IO accessibility.

 

If anything has broken the game, it's time.  We're all older now, we've had decades to play, plan out builds, refine strategies, perfect our characters.  We know so much more than we did back then.  We've been through every mission more times than we can count, and can do some of them in our sleep.  We've learned to use IOs effectively.  They didn't change, and they didn't break the game, we changed and we mastered the game.

 

sorry for the slow response Lum, i appreciate the detailed response but feel it doesn’t address the statement made

 

i feel the introduction of the IO system has broken the game, what you’ve said is that HC has simply allowed the original IO vision of the devs to be achieved more widespread and faster

 

i think the original vision was wrong

 

just because the plan was acheived doesn’t mean it is good

 

OPs amended chart shows the point precisely, the game has unequivocally fallen apart from its original intentions

 

- there are no archetypes

- there are no grades of enemy difficulty

- there is no strategy required

- there is no teamplay dynamic

- there is no worthwhile progession

 

yes we have become better at playing the game, but in modern CoH if you mash the number keys during a mission you’ll likely succeed every time

 

running an oldschool LRSF from ouro highlights how different the game challenge used to be, even with an experienced mindset

[Glacier Peak]

2 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

sorry for the slow response Lum, i appreciate the detailed response but feel it doesn’t address the statement made

 

i feel the introduction of the IO system has broken the game, what you’ve said is that HC has simply allowed the original IO vision of the devs to be achieved more widespread and faster

 

i think the original vision was wrong

 

just because the plan was acheived doesn’t mean it is good

 

OPs amended chart shows the point precisely, the game has unequivocally fallen apart from its original intentions

 

- there are no archetypes

- there are no grades of enemy difficulty

- there is no strategy required

- there is no teamplay dynamic

- there is no worthwhile progession

 

yes we have become better at playing the game, but in modern CoH if you mash the number keys during a mission you’ll likely succeed every time

 

running an oldschool LRSF from ouro highlights how different the game challenge used to be, even with an experienced mindset

I'll push back a little on this - the game gives the option for all the things you list. It doesn't force it on the player. If IOs are too powerful, players can unequip them. If teaming makes content too easy, players can do it solo.

 

If the benefit of archetypes are higher base/max stats and unique powers(ets), if that makes the game more fun it can be used. Otherwise there's Barrier/Clarion cycles with Judgements rotations on radio missions until there's glaze in the player's eyes. 

 

Enemy difficulty goes with this sentiment as well. A Level 1 with no enhancements (or the Fitness pool inherents!) will be defeated by a Level 50 NPC almost every time. A player can stack everything until it's capped and still whiff everything until streakbreaker kicks in, and even then the enemy will only take 1 hp of damage. And even if that enemy is debuffed to its lowest values of stats, it will still not go down any time soon. Maybe attempting this odyssey sounds fun to some, others it's insane or a waste of time. Who cares if the player is having fun. 

 

The "left and right limits" as it were, provide a tremendous breadth in difficulty that can be expressed as "roll your face on the keyboard" easy or "sweat inducing heart rate quickening" hard.

 

That seems like the game difficulty is balanced to me. 

[MoonSheep]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

I'll push back a little on this - the game gives the option for all the things you list. It doesn't force it on the player. If IOs are too powerful, players can unequip them. If teaming makes content too easy, players can do it solo.

 

If the benefit of archetypes are higher base/max stats and unique powers(ets), if that makes the game more fun it can be used. Otherwise there's Barrier/Clarion cycles with Judgements rotations on radio missions until there's glaze in the player's eyes. 

 

Enemy difficulty goes with this sentiment as well. A Level 1 with no enhancements (or the Fitness pool inherents!) will be defeated by a Level 50 NPC almost every time. A player can stack everything until it's capped and still whiff everything until streakbreaker kicks in, and even then the enemy will only take 1 hp of damage. And even if that enemy is debuffed to its lowest values of stats, it will still not go down any time soon. Maybe attempting this odyssey sounds fun to some, others it's insane or a waste of time. Who cares if the player is having fun. 

 

The "left and right limits" as it were, provide a tremendous breadth in difficulty that can be expressed as "roll your face on the keyboard" easy or "sweat inducing heart rate quickening" hard.

 

That seems like the game difficulty is balanced to me. 

 

i agree with you that by not taking part in the community aspect of this MMO then one can escape the overall power creep, but that then diminishes the fun of playing an MMO in the first place

 

overall it’s an inescapable situation as there are people who enjoy a challenge and there’s people who enjoy an easy sandbox type environment. re-creating the feeling of the mid 2000’s when the game felt slower, more meaningful is not going to happen

 

i feel it’s worth being a salmon at times and giving an opinion that’s contrary to the overarching “more syrup please” theme as the game is sweet enough for me

 

saying all this, i complained rigorously about the widespread mastery nerfs as they were good fun before

 

therefore the best piece of advice i can give is to use both hands when scrunching up my posts before throwing them in the bin as it leaves space for more

[Seed22]

4 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

- there are no archetypes

- there are no grades of enemy difficulty

- there is no strategy required

- there is no teamplay dynamic

- there is no worthwhile progession

There never were any of these things. Strategy? Outside of HM, it was even before IOs just bring supports or pop insp. Tanks dont have to actively manage aggro like in WoW or literally any other MMO so its as simple as click taunt and win, even in HM. HM is just spam barrier and fly above AV’s head(Aeon) or break LOS(rommy) or move between four corners(Omega Kong) 

 

ATs do have redundancy but tbh thats probably because of just overall bad design tbh. Lots of stepping on toes. Take a look at tank/brute/scrapper debates for examples. Thats not really an IO thing, as optimal slotting means less building for tank mages and more of what we’re seeing with proc builds(which I am all for. I love my proc bomb fender) 

 

Worthwhile progression never was a thing either. This isnt WoW, there never was anything worth chasing to begin with in this game besides a 50. 
 

Enemy difficulty scaling is kinda wack I will agree. No real scaling difficulty and not really anything crazy at endgame either outside of Kallisti mobs and they arent crazy difficult, just require a little more thought.

[Seed22]

2 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

running an oldschool LRSF from ouro highlights how different the game challenge used to be, even with an experienced mindset

This was easy too. Bring temps stack corrs boom your done in 5 minutes(and thats on the lazy end of a run.). This game was a knowledge game first and foremost. There never is or was challenging gameplay, there’s just the matter of communication and knowledge. IOs didnt make anything easy, it was ALWAYS piss easy. All of it.

 

Take 7 other buddies and get good communication and you’ll steamroll 100% of the content. PuGs gave this game an artificial sense of difficulty that just isnt there. People make the game easy or hard, the content in and of itself is very VERY simple. I told PH this back in CB, this game is baby’s first MMO, and does a wonderful job introducing you to critical roles in other MMOs. 
 

 

Edited yesterday at 04:57 PM by Seed22

[ZeeHero]

You realize that chart is stupid because it refers to minions. a single gang member is not a challenge for even most beginner heroes unless he's an officer and or has access to serious tech or mutant/magic abilities.

 

If you're wanting a single minion enemy to be an even match for your hero of any level, you're playing the wrong game, wrong genre.

I reccomend Elden Ring no leveling run using only your fists.

Edited 22 hours ago by ZeeHero

[Luminara]

7 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

i think the original vision was wrong

 

just because the plan was acheived doesn’t mean it is good

 

OPs amended chart shows the point precisely, the game has unequivocally fallen apart from its original intentions

 

- there are no archetypes

- there are no grades of enemy difficulty

- there is no strategy required

- there is no teamplay dynamic

- there is no worthwhile progession

 

yes we have become better at playing the game, but in modern CoH if you mash the number keys during a mission you’ll likely succeed every time

 

running an oldschool LRSF from ouro highlights how different the game challenge used to be, even with an experienced mindset

 

That, all of it, can be applied to defenders just as aptly, and more correctly.