The Idea Police

[arcane]

3 hours ago, skoryy said:

 

Nah, @tidge had it right. The Idea Police live inside of our heads,, the Idea Police they come to us in our beds... 🎶

obligatory “maybe the idea police are just the friends we made along the way” comment

[JasperStone]

5 hours ago, arcane said:

I love that the evil cabal ruining Homecoming’s development is just me posting disagreeable blurbs from atop my toilet. Never have I dreamed of this kind of power.

 

 

 

[tidge]

8 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Here's a real question for anyone whose posted in this sub thread - how many posters have shared an idea or suggestion and actually agreed with other posters who point out the flaws or criticisms of that? What a crazy world to think one's ideas are without flaw.

 

I'm self-judging my participation on the topic of suggestions as hitting all points on this spectrum:

 

I think some ideas are bad, often in a very selfish (or short-sighted) way: often these are of this sort: "hey I wanted to do this one thing, this one time, and it took me two clicks instead of one, plz change hmm 'kay?".  If no one else is pointing out the short-sghtedness... I'll jump in and look like a negative nancy. If there are dozens of existing threads (ehem, Group Fly) there is nothing more for anyone to say on this topic, as no opinion has gone unstated. Every once in a while I end up engaging with another member when I think they are misunderstanding some fundamental part of the game, or are making grand pronouncements with limited experience or authority.

 

I think some suggestions are ones I simply disagree with. They may get just a reaction, maybe some reply if I think there is nuance to my disagreement.

 

There is a mirror version where I think some suggestions are good... maybe just a reaction, maybe some vocality is provided.

 

Sometimes I really like a suggestion, and I want to share even more ideas related to the suggestion (ehem, rework the last of the original power pools)

 

Sometimes I think a thread needs some memery to explore the topic ("The Homecunkening?"), especially when the pitch is right over the plate ("Dream/Idea Police living inside our head")

[battlewraith]

I'd like to see an example of a thread in the suggestions forum that was a success. Someone showed up with a full blown feasibility study of an idea, it survived the review of the forum regulars that hang out here, and then it went on to be somehow implemented in the game. 

 

Looking at the success rate of posts , imo, says a lot about the legitimacy of this "process". 

 

 

[JasperStone]

9 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

 

...are you reading your words? I mean reeeeealllly reading them. They are the words of a petulant child. You've called everyone except the holy ghost "stupid". Who the fuck does that? Petulant children. That's who. 

 

Real talk? At this point you're embarrassing yourself. You came in on a high and mighty soapbox, talked down to everyone (your usual MO), called everyone stupid and acted like ONLY YOU could lead us to the light. A GM (following your request) politely suggested you were out of line. Your response? "LOL ok". 

 

I mean...what?!?!

 

Jesus H Christ, where's the Tylenol? 

 

Exactly where I stand.

 

Once...once I complained about how people behaved and gave feedback.

Response: "crickets chirping"

 

Part of my IRL job has me teaching students how to provide feedback, a critical response.

No, this is not me saying I am better than you or elevating myself above everyone because. Hardly.

Just sharing where my perspective comes from.

 

The feedback here at times is ... after years of the Live Forums and then returning here ... predictable.

Actually, across ALL the forums of websites I am part of, it is pretty dismal. Photographers are the worst, but I digress.

 

I filter out what does not give me value.

 

If we have strict guidelines for posting feedback, I won't post.

I no longer participate in some of my Reddit groups because my posts get taken down for not following guidelines, despite reading them and thinking I was following them.

I don't have the time to rewrite.

 

If we suddenly have someone moderating feedback and taking down responses that don't follow the guidelines.

...

Your guidelines.

Wait... why do we have to follow your guidelines?

 

 

 

[battlewraith]

30 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

The feedback here at times is ... after years of the Live Forums and then returning here ... predictable.

Actually, across ALL the forums of websites I am part of, it is pretty dismal. Photographers are the worst, but I digress.

 

I filter out what does not give me value.

 

What you and other people are expressing is the mirror image to the OPs position.

 

You don't want moderation stifling your expression. You don't want to follow somebody else's guidelines. If that happens, you won't post.

People in this camp are framing this issue in terms of censorship.

 

People on the other side are reacting to orthodoxy. As per Googley's instructions, I don't have to argue or defend my position. I just have to deal with pages of predictable demands that I do exactly that. And derision if I refuse. Just as you filter out what doesn't give you value, people outside the orthodoxy just stop posting in the suggestions forum. And it's not just a matter of providing proper feedback. There are other players who want dev time spent on their issues. Or they don't want people rocking the boat. 

 

Unless someone is just advocating a cosmetic or minor QOL change, I don't see suggestions passing muster or being impactful in any way. If someone new came to the forums and asked my advice on posting a suggestion, I'd tell them that the most reasonable thing to do is not bother. I'm not seeing any evidence to the contrary. So why does the charade have to be so tedious?

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

I'd like to see an example of a thread in the suggestions forum that was a success. Someone showed up with a full blown feasibility study of an idea, it survived the review of the forum regulars that hang out here, and then it went on to be somehow implemented in the game. 

 

Looking at the success rate of posts , imo, says a lot about the legitimacy of this "process". 

 

 

I’d also like to see one that the devs said “we love it and will implement it” only to then change their mind after the “regulars” crapped all over it.

⏳

[Ghost]

8 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

 

 

Unless someone is just advocating a cosmetic or minor QOL change, I don't see suggestions passing muster or being impactful in any way. If someone new came to the forums and asked my advice on posting a suggestion, I'd tell them that the most reasonable thing to do is not bother. I'm not seeing any evidence to the contrary. So why does the charade have to be so tedious?

Who takes responsibility for turning it into something tedious?

 

Post your suggestion and then move on.  Don’t get involved in the back and forth.

If it’s a good suggestion, I’m sure it will be taken into consideration.  If it’s bad, it will most likely be ignored.

The feeling of tediousness and being beaten down comes with trying to go back and forth with people who don’t like the idea.  Why do that?

[MTeague]

I do think, when we disagree, it would be helpful if we took some time to phrase it, as if we were talking to a newer colleague at work. 

 

I'm not saying don't disagree.

I'm not saying don't say why you think it's a bad idea.

 

I am saying "Buckshot" or "Flamethrower",  may not be the most forum-friendly approach.

Do I expect anyone to change their ways, no, not really. 

But sometimes a mentoring approach is better than a "dude, ur idea sucks" approach.

[dukedukes]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

I’d also like to see one that the devs said “we love it and will implement it” only to then change their mind after the “regulars” crapped all over it.

⏳

 

I don't think devs would be so willing to share their opinion because it can appear as a promise to implement the suggestion if they like it but that decision isn't necessarily up to them, it's likely up to the team, they also can't guarantee if it could ever be done due to other priorities. I know some devs (not COH related) who get excited and share a lot of thoughts and ideas and honestly it's annoying because it's false promise after false promise. These devs lose credibility and respect to some extent. It might seem backwards but it's good if devs are not so open about supporting specific ideas, at least until it's implemented or guaranteed to be.

 

45 minutes ago, Ghost said:

The feeling of tediousness and being beaten down comes with trying to go back and forth with people who don’t like the idea.  Why do that?

 

If there is still room for arguments and facts it can only help to test the idea further, but there is a point where the conclusion becomes subjective and the argument should end then. Does the OP have to engage with any arguments? I agree it's not required but it can help the idea if OP needs to bring some clarity to their suggestion.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

I’d also like to see one that the devs said “we love it and will implement it” only to then change their mind after the “regulars” crapped all over it.

⏳

I am holding the puppet strings far too tightly for such a slip up to occur

[Aracknight]

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Aracknight

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

The feeling of tediousness and being beaten down comes with trying to go back and forth with people who don’t like the idea.  Why do that?

Because the truth is that this thread is exactly the same as all other complaint threads in the suggestions forum. It's dressed up as one thing or another but the truth is that the real objection is that the person is upset because no one agreed with his suggestion. And so now, he's trying to make it so that people aren't allowed to disagree with his suggestion.

 

We've had many other threads exactly like this one over the years.

[battlewraith]

29 minutes ago, Ghost said:

The feeling of tediousness and being beaten down comes with trying to go back and forth with people who don’t like the idea.  Why do that?

 

Because you cared enough to post the idea in the first place? What's the emotional investment in shooting down people's ideas? Fear that the devs will mistakenly pick up a bad idea and run with it?

 

Lemme try to illustrate the problem of orthodoxy with an anecdote:

 

Beginning in the early 2000s there was a website called conceptart.org. This was a site founded by a bunch of artists who were working primarily in the videogame industry but also in things like fantasy illustration. This site was hugely impactful because these people, who were top tier artists, were sharing industry practices as well as teaching techniques and critiquing people's work. This was stuff that people would've needed to pay to learn at an art program or maybe learn through interning at a studio or something. 

 

So this site drew a huge audience of people interested in that kind of art and the site expanded. You then had various forums for different things, moderation policies, etc. And then you had the forum regulars, who generally speaking were struggling to improve their art and connect with other people like themselves. And one way to try to master artistic principles like perspective, anatomy, etc. is the critique those things in the work of others. So that was a bread and butter type of participation.

 

One day, somebody shows up in one of the subforums and posts pages of a comic strip that were done by taking pictures of Barbie dolls posed in different little sets, outfits, etc. Of course it was a shitshow. People were incredulous. They mocked it and eventually someone said that it didn't really belong there on the forums. Then Jon Foster showed up and dropped the hammer on these people.  Jon Foster is an acclaimed, top tier professional illustrator. He said that "if this work is not appropriate for the forums, I probably don't belong here either." Why? Because he is someone who has mastered anatomy, perspective, etc. is no longer a slave to it and is always looking for some indication of where to move next. And they will look at someone's expression to see if it holds some inspiration--even if it's a story told through posed Barbie dolls. The regulars to whom he responded were so fixated on the quantifiable that they lost the overall plot. 

 

I think the situation is  analogous here. 

[battlewraith]

13 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

We've had many other threads exactly like this one over the years.

 

The fact that this discussion has happened many times over the years ,raised by different people, is indicative of an unresolved issue. 

And the stance that people are complainers that need to go away, will entail that it keeps happening.

[dukedukes]

16 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

Because you cared enough to post the idea in the first place? What's the emotional investment in shooting down people's ideas? Fear that the devs will mistakenly pick up a bad idea and run with it?

 

Lemme try to illustrate the problem of orthodoxy with an anecdote:

 

...

 

I think the situation is  analogous here. 

It's not analogous because art can exist independently, a more analogous situation would be debating whether to hang the art you described in your own home. Suggestions here are potentially integrated into a system we all interact with so we should be very critical of what's in this sub-forum. If you think devs alone can identify bad ideas I wouldn't be so sure, the devs themselves have mentioned they like to hear different opinions from the community and that's exactly how this sub-forum is structured.

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

3 hours ago, battlewraith said:

I'd like to see an example of a thread in the suggestions forum that was a success.

 

I went to look and decided to start at the very end of the list, thinking that maybe something discussed long ago had filtered it's way up.  When I saw that we had 381 pages of suggestion topics, I gave up that endeavor.   However, allow me to flip the question on the group and ask you to take a look at the list of changes made in Issues 26, 27, and 28. (https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Issues)  I think you will find in those lists things that have been requested by players over the last few years, as well as things no one asked for.

 

But I've been giving this some thought and maybe there could be a "Brainstorm" subforum.  Under traditional brainstorm rules you just state an idea with no commentary or critique.  That may not be feasible with our forum tech because it would have to automatically lock the thread after the first post.  No edits, no comments, no emojis.  

[tidge]

[PeregrineFalcon]

11 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

The fact that this discussion has happened many times over the years ,raised by different people, is indicative of an unresolved issue.

Yes. The unresolved issue is that people now days are immature, and they get shocked and horrified when people disagree with something they are saying. Too many decades of tone policing and participation trophies have lead to a generation of people who are so soft that they literally can't stand it when people don't slavishly agree with whatever nonsense falls out of their pie-hole.

[Forager]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

People in this camp are framing this issue in terms of censorship.

 

It's a strange, defensive way to respond.

 

I never proposed any censorship, but we somehow got 5 pages of people arguing against it. I don't know exactly what that's called... but it's been weird.

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Forager

[Forager]

38 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

And so now, he's trying to make it so that people aren't allowed to disagree with his suggestion.

 

I don't think I've ever even made a suggestion before this one...

 

And as I've said over and over, I am not suggesting a single rule change. I never have and never would. I'm largely against censorship. You're allowed to disagree. You should be allowed to disagree.

 

You have assigned an opinion to me and then argued very passionately against it. I don't know how to help you.

 

[Troo]

2 minutes ago, Forager said:

I don't think I've ever even made a suggestion before this one...

 

And as I've said over and over, I am not suggesting a single rule change. I never have and never would. I'm largely against censorship. You're allowed to disagree. You should be allowed to disagree.

 

You have assigned an opinion to me and then argued very passionately against it. I don't know how to help you.

 

This single post seems pretty reasonable.

[Troo]

54 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

 

Hey! All of my suggestions have been the bestest most fantastic. 

 

Disclaimer: This should not be confused with general discussion topics I've started which range from pot-stirring to shit-show with a smattering of thoughtful introspective.

[Forager]

25 minutes ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

But I've been giving this some thought and maybe there could be a "Brainstorm" subforum.  Under traditional brainstorm rules you just state an idea with no commentary or critique.

 

I'm proposing efforts to improve the quality of conversations here. Commentary and critique are necessary for lively, productive conversations.

 

 

[Forager]

3 hours ago, JasperStone said:

If we have strict guidelines for posting feedback, I won't post.

 

We don't. We don't have those. I have not proposed any. I don't think anyone has.