Can we please make the 'No Politics and Religion' thing a little more front and center?

[mechahamham]

Currently, one has to scroll down to the middle of the Code of Conduct (https://forums.homecomingservers.com/code-of-conduct/) to see the restriction against religious and political content. The License Agreement on the game client starts with fairly reasonable legalese, and then points players to that same page for the Code of Conduct if you scroll down a bit on a 1080p display.

 

And of course once people start arguing for their particular side or vision, they are arguing for what is RIGHT and TRUTHFUL. They get heated and so everyone else can take a flying leap. Or everyone else is stomping on their right to Freedom of Speech(™). Or something else along those lines. It gets pretty ridiculous, especially on drinking nights, and we've got a finite amount of ignore slots.

 

I can't help but feel like if there were a more prominent 'Discussions about religion or politics violate our terms of service,' message upon login would help reduce situations like those. Yes, there would still be people who click right past it, but enough would read it in passing that it would at least have an effect.

 

Difficulty: Easy. This only needs to be a purely textual change to screens that already contain text, and would reference rules that we've had since the beginning.

[Steampunkette]

I am always leery of "No Politics or Religion" calls... for a very simple reason.

 

I am transgender. That is not a political position, it's simply a bone hard fact of my existence. I do not cease to be transgender when I log onto City of Heroes.

 

But depending on what the current major bigoted push is within a political space, my existence -becomes- political. And talking about my experiences or life or perspectives becomes 'political' and I can swiftly be silenced. I've had this happen in supergroups and guilds across multiple games, too. As soon as something 'becomes political' it becomes taboo to discuss, even if it's just lived experiences.

 

Because everything is, by the broad definition, political, anything can become a politically charged topic out of nowhere. Because when people call out 'Politics' they mostly just mean whatever their government is shouting about on a given day.

 

That's not even getting into the fact that we're playing a game in a "Modern America" with it's own sociopolitical structures, specific call outs to UN peacekeeping forces, a private army invading a sovereign nation, cops going rogue and trying to kill superheroes to steal medical equipment for the populace, and more.

 

Meanwhile calls to silence discussion of religion are similarly ham-handed in most cases. After all, Statesman and Emperor Cole both have the literal power of Zeus and regardless of how debatable the canonicity of the Top Cow comics are, Prometheus is hanging around the End of Time with Mender Silos. Now and again you'll deal with Stheno or the Dagger of Ereshkigal or whatever other religious artifact a given tip or radio mish requires. And then you've got the various players playing 'Incarnations' of ancient gods or their children or their chosen...

 

People of various religions and ancient traditions get to watch their religious beliefs get chopped up into easily digestible bites but it's okay because -their- beliefs are on mythological beings while the Abrahamic faiths are based on 'real' god.

 

It's a whole thing. It often smacks of trying to silence minorities and always makes me real uncomfortable.

[MTeague]

I personally stray away from discussions of anyone in office or running for office. NOT because I lack an opinion. I could babble into a keyboard for 9 pages if left unchecked. But ultimately, I am aware that arguments on politics, especially in an online chat forum,

1. never changes anyone's opinion at all. So really, what's the point?
2. just causes stress for other people who are trying to find an escape in the game.  And I don't set out to cause people stress. Usually.
3. consumes time that I could have spent accomplishing my goals in the game or just having fun, in a shouting match of "the other side sucks! the other side sucks!".  So it's not even just what's the point, it actively prevents me from doing something else I want to do.

Can I say that I've never been baited into the arguments?  No.

But it's never changed a single thing, and only wasted my evening, each time.

So now, if i see General Chat devolving into discussions I dislike, I change chat tabs. Just to keep my eyes away from it. Prevent me from even seeing it. 

 

Is that the right solution for everyone, probably not, but it works for me. Your milage may vary, see dealer for details. 

[LightMaster]

16 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

I am always leery of "No Politics or Religion" calls... for a very simple reason.

 

I am transgender. That is not a political position, it's simply a bone hard fact of my existence. I do not cease to be transgender when I log onto City of Heroes.

 

But depending on what the current major bigoted push is within a political space, my existence -becomes- political. And talking about my experiences or life or perspectives becomes 'political' and I can swiftly be silenced. I've had this happen in supergroups and guilds across multiple games, too. As soon as something 'becomes political' it becomes taboo to discuss, even if it's just lived experiences.

 

Because everything is, by the broad definition, political, anything can become a politically charged topic out of nowhere. Because when people call out 'Politics' they mostly just mean whatever their government is shouting about on a given day.

 

That's not even getting into the fact that we're playing a game in a "Modern America" with it's own sociopolitical structures, specific call outs to UN peacekeeping forces, a private army invading a sovereign nation, cops going rogue and trying to kill superheroes to steal medical equipment for the populace, and more.

 

Meanwhile calls to silence discussion of religion are similarly ham-handed in most cases. After all, Statesman and Emperor Cole both have the literal power of Zeus and regardless of how debatable the canonicity of the Top Cow comics are, Prometheus is hanging around the End of Time with Mender Silos. Now and again you'll deal with Stheno or the Dagger of Ereshkigal or whatever other religious artifact a given tip or radio mish requires. And then you've got the various players playing 'Incarnations' of ancient gods or their children or their chosen...

 

People of various religions and ancient traditions get to watch their religious beliefs get chopped up into easily digestible bites but it's okay because -their- beliefs are on mythological beings while the Abrahamic faiths are based on 'real' god.

 

It's a whole thing. It often smacks of trying to silence minorities and always makes me real uncomfortable.

There’s definitely some redefinitions needed regarding this rule so that there is clearly a thin line not to cross, given that both definitions can be stretched too far.

 

Politics should be about what is defined as true politics (i.e. governments, president of USA, dictatorship, voting processes, protests, etc), and not based solely on others’ identity. Religions should be defined as religions that are still active today such Christianism and Buddhism, while ancient religions and ancient traditions such as mythological deities are fine to discuss as long as it doesn’t get aggressive and mean-spirited.

 

I call foul when people says “everything is political” where the definition is just that; “relating to the government or the public affairs of a country” (Oxford Dictionary), and going beyond the definition can undermine any message or intent the author have for their artistic product.

[El D]

While @Steampunkette already made a collection of excellent points that I wholeheartedly agree with, I must point out there's a pretty big missing component to the OP's post.  The Code of Conduct doesn't prohibit discussion of politics or religion. At all. The sole mentions of religion and politics within the Code of Conduct are the following:

 

Hate speech:

• Hate speech is defined as anything threatening or abusive towards a specific group based on their race, religious beliefs, political affiliation, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity

Controversial and adult content, including:

• Controversial religious content
• Controversial political content

The rules are already pretty clear and the content of the game already reflects that. The Malta Organization directly references the Knights of Malta and the Templars, along with clear ties to post-1930s American politics. Hell, one of their leaders was the head of the CIA and the World Wide Red arc's entire framing is inspired by both the Cold War and the modern (for 2004) politics of America's interactions with Russia and China. Cain Royce, one of the Wheel of Destruction contacts, has explicit writing about the Circle of Thorns and the Banished Pantheon preying upon Paragon City's African American community for decades. The Luddites are directly connected to the French Jesuits who settled in the Rogue Isles and literally used magic powers to fight demons. Angels - biblical, Renaissance art angels - canonically exist, along side a whole buffet of demons, one of the most prominent of which is literally named Baphomet. Expanding the Code of Conduct to a blanket ban would prohibit discussion of actual, in-game content, beyond any player discussions of those topics.

 

Though, to backtrack a step, I find it curious OP didn't provide an example of what they found to be against the Code of Conduct. All the objections were just general 'You know how it is!' comments. If a player actually is breaking any rules or harassing others then that's a problem for the GMs to deal with after reporting them, but currently it sounds more like 'some players are saying things I don't think they should be able to say and they should get in trouble.' Which does seem to jive with the whole 'blanket violation' thing. That said, to OP's remark about ignore slots, I can get behind the idea of an expanded/unlimited ignore list. That's just better player experience curation. Haven't had to ignore anyone in-game for a long while myself and I find the idea that anyone would need to ignore that many other players inherently suspicious, but the greater issue is that players shouldn't have to pick and choose in that context. If a player put someone on ignore it was probably for a reason and since it's their personal ignore list that reason can be whatever they feel like. Seems like it'd resolve this whole thing for the better, really.

[Lunar Ronin]

If this is in regards to General, Help, and/or LFG chat channels, report it.  Per Ghost Widower's post linked below, political discussion isn't allowed in those channels.

 

 

 

FWIW, I highly recommend just outright removing the General chat channel from your chat tabs.  Nothing worthwhile there.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

my existence -becomes- political.

this has never happened anywhere ever. you might be misrepresenting something more specific.

[Steampunkette]

@El D highlighted the important bits.

 

It's not a ban on politics, just "Controversial" topics with the specific caveat that identarian aggression (hate speech on identity) is forbidden.

 

So hey. That's a -huge- comfort for me, and kinda throws some sus on this whole discussion's purpose since it was phrased in such a vague manner...

[Steampunkette]

Just now, arcane said:

this has never happened anywhere ever. you might be misrepresenting something more specific.

Hey, glad you know my personal experiences better than I do!

 

Say, where'd I leave my keys?

[arcane]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

Hey, glad you know my personal experiences better than I do!

 

Say, where'd I leave my keys?

sorry, when you’ve heard the “my existence is being denied” argument thousands of times and never once witnessed an argument that denied anyone’s existence, you start to connect some dots.

[Psyonico]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

this has never happened anywhere ever. you might be misrepresenting something more specific.

Tell me you're privileged without telling me you're privileged.

[arcane]

I encourage the OP to look at it like I do. People that bring up politics in video games literally were born without the basic awareness needed to self censor one’s thoughts. They’re probably from the bottom of the barrel so just laugh it off and ignore. 

[battlewraith]

10 minutes ago, arcane said:

this has never happened anywhere ever. you might be misrepresenting something more specific.

 

It takes all of about 30 seconds to look up an executive order that does precisely this. 

[Steampunkette]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

sorry, when you’ve heard the “my existence is being denied” argument thousands of times and never once witnessed an argument that denied anyone’s existence, you start to connect some dots.

 

"I didn't see it, therefore it didn't happen"

 

Cool beans. Must be nice for you. Here's a shocker: Other people have different lived experiences beyond what you know.

 

 

 

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

 

"I didn't see it, therefore it didn't happen"

 

Cool beans. Must be nice for you. Here's a shocker: Other people have different lived experiences beyond what you know.

 

 

 

I noticed no one has countered my argument with, say, a fact or anything like that.

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

I noticed no one has countered my argument with, say, a fact or anything like that.

Battlewraith gave you an excellent example.

 

Meanwhile you won't believe literally anything I say, so what's the fucking point?

[keyguardactive]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

I noticed no one has countered my argument with, say, a fact or anything like that.

That's because that would be dumb. Your position has no basis in reality and we have no obligation to attempt to prove anything to you. The simple fact is, you're being a sealion. Not playing that game with you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

[arcane]

23 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Battlewraith gave you an excellent example.

 

Meanwhile you won't believe literally anything I say, so what's the fucking point?

There is no executive order that seeks to make trans existence a political issue. Keeping biological males out of biological females’ sports/prisons/safe spaces does nothing to your right to exist. Completely unrelated to the *existence* issue you pressed - those are more specific issues like I said. Keeping people with certain DSM 5 mental illnesses out of the military also does nothing to deny your existence; in fact my mental illnesses have been banned for longer than yours. I could go on.

 

 

As for you? I’d be happy to believe something you say as long as it isn’t a specific existence denial argument. Because that argument has been a lie every time I’ve heard it so I need a little more you know?

[El D]

@Lunar Ronin made a fair point about the channel usage. I can't recall anything in-game that explicitly mentions that, and it feels like it ought to be pretty immediately understood that the Help channel is for in-game Help, LFG is just for grouping up, etc., but as this is an explicit staff ruling it could be worth emphasizing in-game. If just in a 'hey, we told you to keep it to the right channels' sort of way. I wouldn't expect to see political pundit remarks in General the same way I wouldn't expect to see cake recipes or 'click here for free movie downloads!'

[Steampunkette]

Oh, my god. Arcane. You are -so- ignorant that it has to be an act. 

 

We're done. You've chosen the most bizarre hill to die on, but you go right on and die on it.

 

Can you imagine being so blitheringly willfully ignorant about things that not only do you deny any action against trans people, you specifically take an against the rules approach to misgender folks in support of something you barely read on a forum where it has just been publicly outlined NOT TO DO THAT THING?

 

Holy shit. 

[arcane]

I have a couple of friends that do this shit in discord (with politics in general, trans or not). I have zero desire for conflict with them so I say nothing. But honestly my major gripe with them is that, when they choose to be stupid, I have to sit with the thought that my friends are stupid. It’s annoying.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

Oh, my god. Arcane. You are -so- ignorant that it has to be an act. 

 

We're done. You've chosen the most bizarre hill to die on, but you go right on and die on it.

 

Can you imagine being so blitheringly willfully ignorant about things that not only do you deny any action against trans people, you specifically take an against the rules approach to misgender folks in support of something you barely read on a forum where it has just been publicly outlined NOT TO DO THAT THING?

 

Holy shit. 

Literally no one was misgendered… wtf are you talking about.

 

If you’re referring to my usage of the words male/female, those are biological terms that aren’t supposed to align with gender. I used those specifically to *avoid* misgendering.

Edited 9 hours ago by arcane

[Michiyo]

Locking this, as it's clearly ran its course.