Knockback, Stil a Dirty Word?

[The Witchfire]

Knockback, or at least the energy blast set (with it's knockback), came up quite a bit in my thread about building a power armor character. Based on that and some of the positive reactions to my PB character, I'm wondering if KB is still the same vile concept it used to be in Live days.

 

I'm guesing some of it has to do with characters being so overpowered nowadays. "Scatter a mob and have them pull in another mob or two?  Who cares, I farm 6 mobs at a time."

 

I can remember dealing with it at middle levels on live though. Worst instance was running misions as an SG and having Strong Girl get us wiped repeatedly via Shield Rushing Clockwork, scattering them everywhere, and then getting shot from 10 different directions by the mob and all the nearby ones that got aggro'ed by the first mob being knocked all over the map.

 

Hel, I even had to retire my Energy / Energy blaster because nobody would group with a KB causing character, even on Virtue.

Edited yesterday at 07:26 AM by The Witchfire
spelling corections

[Maelwys]

Short version: Yes; it's still hated by a large portion (if not the vast majority) of the playerbase.

Longer version: And it's also apparently loved by an extremely passionate minority of the playerbase.
(Some of them even believe they're "helping" - in much the same manner that a 2 year old with a tub of red paint might make surprise contributions to your home decor...)

Even adding an option (via Null or a Special IO) to globally make KnockBACK into KnockDOWN keeps getting vetoed.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 08:32 AM by Maelwys

[Forager]

In the same way "dam" is a dirty word to a five year old. People with small, underdeveloped brains and limited real world experience don't like it.

 

They will complain about knockback on teams that are steamrolling with zero deaths. It's reflexive. It's not based on anything. They might have some anecdote or something about a bad player and mistakenly assign blame to the powerset.

 

Knockback complainers are like Karens. They're probably playing weak characters. They have poor social skills and they aren't very self aware.

 

Ignore them. Play inspired. 

[Scarlet Shocker]

I'm actually a big fan of knockback. I don't think referring to it is bad at all. I much prefer it to knockdown almost every time.

[Maelwys]

^^ Case in point! 🙈
 

  

1 hour ago, Forager said:

People with small, underdeveloped brains and limited real world experience don't like it.

...

They will complain about knockback on teams that are steamrolling with zero deaths.

...

Knockback complainers are like Karens. They're probably playing weak characters. They have poor social skills and they aren't very self aware.

We could flip that around:
"Knockback lovers have small, underdeveloped frontal lobes. They love imposing their sub-standard playstyle choices on others and especially enjoy trolling teams that were previously blissfully steamrolling through content without having their targets unceremoniously punted away from their melee attacks, PBAoEs and debuff patches." 😛

More seriously; it's true that some specific players are quite capable of leveraging knockback to clump rather than disperse enemies. And the introduction of Combat Teleport (and the addition of Knockback Resistance to most AoE Immobilise powers) has somewhat lessened the negative impact of 'uncontrolled' teammate-induced Knockback. However a bad knockback player can still be a major PITA on a team; and mechanically speaking KnockDOWN provides almost as much mitigation as KnockBACK but without all the hate and vitriol. So I personally will almost always choose to convert KB>KD - as a courtesy to my teammates even if it doesn't make much difference to my own toon. And whilst I haven't personally ever booted anyone off a team I'm leading for using Knockback badly (even back in the old days), I have used several of them as "Vengeance Bait".

 

Edited yesterday at 12:42 PM by Maelwys

[Yomo Kimyata]

22 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

More seriously; it's true that some specific players are quite capable of leveraging knockback to clump rather than disperse enemies.

 

22 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

However a bad knockback player can still be a major PITA on a team

 

I know this goes against the cardinal rule of never ever judging someone else on their abilities or game play choice, but aren't you saying that knockback is bad because bad players are bad?  Bad players are, in fact, bad, and I'm not planning on changing the game in order to somehow work around that fact.  Hate the player, not the knockback!

 

Also, being a bad player doesn't necessarily mean that they are physiologically mentally undeveloped as one person said or that they should be compared to a toddler as you said.  It just means they are bad by my standards, and that badness is easily remediable by practicing not being bad.

 

No bad players were hurt in the writing of this post.

[Ukase]

I don't hate it. But there are times when it is annoying because it increases my risk. Labyrinth on Excelsior is predominantly run by Goddess Laucianne. A large number of her SG mates are PBs that as most know are woefully short on slots. I cannot blame those who don't use the kb-kd IO because it's a wasted slot, imo. 

But when that malevolent fog I was blasting gets kb'd into mobs that are +7 to me, that now creates a level of risk I'd rather not assume. All they had to do was attack from above, or move to the other side, but very few are that savvy about positioning, or it's just more fun for them to let things loose and not sweat it. Sometimes it goes somewhere safe, but I still have to reposition myself - as do they - and it can slow things down a few seconds. Not the end of the world, but still a minor annoyance. 

Generally, when I encounter KB, I consider the source, and the context. Like that scaffolding/bridge that the team attacks Dr. Vahzilok in the Positron II TF. Now, we have to potentially sift through a fair number of other cadavers and reapers to end the tf if we can't find the one that got knocked off. These situations are when it's most annoying. 

But, in a mission...if I'm melee, I hit the F key. If not, I blast per usual. While I grasp that melee folks might find it more annoying, it's not the end of the world. 

[MTeague]

Knockback is hated by some.  "Most" or "Vast Majority", I find doubtful.  Majority of those who post on the forums perhaps, of the entire playerbase... that's another question entirely.  I have been kicked for KB, but it's been rare. Whether that's because the rest of the time people sucked it up because the FF bubbles were worth it to them, or because they honestly didn't give a darn, no one can say.  People may have opinions, but we can't reach back in time and interview those specific players. 

 

Worst case, you can always form a team yourself specifcally saying "KB friendly team forming!" and the haters will most definitely not join.

[Maelwys]

35 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I know this goes against the cardinal rule of never ever judging someone else on their abilities or game play choice, but aren't you saying that knockback is bad because bad players are bad? 

Bad Players are bad.
Bad Players plus knockback powers consistently result in ongoing annoyance to other players (who may or may not also be Bad).

AFAIK it's the only power secondary effect that can be actively harmful.

The only other abilities I've ever seen generate more annoyance than a badly utilized AoE Knockback ability is a badly utilized "Phase Shift" power like Sonic Cage... and at least then the bad (very bad! no cookies for you!) player is leveraging that ability's primary effect!

The first toon I played that had substantial Knockback was a Peacebringer; back in issue 7 or so. In those days we didn't have any KB>KD IOs and you had to learn "good positioning" - flying above things so that they ragdoll into the floor instead of away from the tank; rotating around the combat encounter using unsuppressed movement to knock things inwards instead of outwards, etc. etc. I'm keenly aware that it's certainly possible to use KB-laden abilities without setting the rest of the team's heads on fire with sheer rage. And I appreciate the addition of individual KB>KD IOs... but I still get annoyed by the notion that players can't just choose to globally convert their own KB into KD without paying an "enhancement tax" in every power. As @Ukase mentions; many builds unfortunately just don't have that much slotting leeway. Meh.
 

Edited yesterday at 01:40 PM by Maelwys

[Yomo Kimyata]

6 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

Bad Players are bad.
Bad Players plus knockback powers consistently results in ongoing annoyance to other players (who may or may not also be Bad).

 

I've got the solution!

 

Lock all KB powers so that you cannot access them at all until you have unlocked a level 50.  Using the VEAT requirements adds a level of aptness, since so many hate the kb of peacebringers.  

[Techwright]

KB a dirty word?  Well, the question got me to rethink my wording.  I've previously stated a detest for it, and this viewpoint from one who considers their main to be their energy/energy blaster (inherent KB).  Better phrased, KB, the function, is not the problem.  A lack of control from a player using KB is the problem.  When I first started my character, I was tossing opponents everywhere, then learned how it was upsetting teammates, as well as how it was disrupting a herding concept.  So I "learned to play" as the outraged catchphrase stated back in the early days.  I began to angle my shots so a wall, pillar, or other obstruction was behind the target, basically creating a poor-man's Knock Down, with just a bit of distance involved.  Later someone finally clued me in to the crafted KB-to-KD enhancements.  Still later, I learned of the secondary build option I can swap to at the trainer, which means I can now have a team-centric build and a cut-loose solo-play build.

 

My frustration comes from players who do NOT consider the team: who could care less if the melee lead just herded a group for the specific purpose of a controlled rapid kill by the team; who only live to see their "phenomenal cosmic power" splatter that herded group across the large, open room, most likely reduced in health, but not dead, necessitating the team going in all directions to finish them off.  It is the grossly inconsiderate player that makes KB a dirty word.   I should add that I'm greatly patient with new players who've not learned all this yet.  I'm also forgiving of players who grab a single power that they didn't realize had a KB effect, and are not in an immediate position to correct it.  It is the choices after their discovery that make or break it.  

 

Also, KB has another problem in that it is inherent design to certain powers, and the player cannot remove that design, only sacrifice a valuable enhancement slot to alter it.  That is on the heads of the original developers.  It's why I've long wished it be the one inherent that has a toggle to turn off or to turn to KD, without sacrificing that valuable slot in my team build.  But good luck with that.

[Maelwys]

14 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Knockback is hated by some.  "Most" or "Vast Majority", I find doubtful.  Majority of those who post on the forums perhaps, of the entire playerbase... that's another question entirely.  I have been kicked for KB, but it's been rare. Whether that's because the rest of the time people sucked it up because the FF bubbles were worth it to them, or because they honestly didn't give a darn, no one can say.  People may have opinions, but we can't reach back in time and interview those specific players. 

FWIW, I distinctly recall multiple occasions where our SG/Coalition teams refused to let certain characters join because they were simply too annoying for the rest of the (admittedly mostly melee) squad to deal with. And that was despite everyone being very fond of the player behind said character. A certain Energy Blaster springs to mind... 🙊

These days? Admittedly I don't see that sort of bias vocalized anywhere near as often; but then I don't get the chance to actually play anywhere near as often as I used to.

I will say though that I've never ever seen a player get denied access to a team or kicked for spamming KnockDOWN powers.
The weirdest related kick I've seen was for a KnockUP power - a Waterspout user who was apparently intentionally trolling on a MLTF. 🤷‍♂️

[Oklahoman]

I don't mind for the most part, but I will say that when you are playing at the highest levels of the game you should be able to control your character pretty well by that point. If the league leader says not to use AoE here, you ought to know what of your powers have AoE and not use them. If the league leader says no knockback here, you ought to know what of your powers have knockback and not use them. If the league leader says to stop all damage, you should know which of your pets are uncontrollable and what powers apply DoT and what damaging auras you have going. You're supposed to learn all that by playing through lower level content. By level 50 you are supposed to be really good with your character.

 

Unrelated - I've had several Triple Threat runs fail lately due to "itchy trigger finger."

[tidge]

7 minutes ago, Oklahoman said:

You're supposed to learn all that by playing through lower level content. By level 50 you are supposed to be really good with your character.

 

 

I'd like to add: By level 50, the player ought to have some experience with how to play this character with other characters.

[bAss_ackwards]

KB is the reason I can't bring myself to play Energy Blast. 😔

[Psi-bolt]

9 minutes ago, bAss_ackwards said:

KB is the reason I can't bring myself to play Energy Blast. 😔

 

Same, I've gotten as high as 30 before abandoning it.   And that's a shame.  Energy Blast is a cool looking set, but the slot tax on top of the set being somewhat middling even without considering the KB is the killer.  Peacebringers, by contrast, tend to have the tools to use KB as well as one can, although I've still never taken Nova.

Edited 23 hours ago by Psi-bolt
little more context

[The Trouble]

2 hours ago, bAss_ackwards said:

KB is the reason I can't bring myself to play Energy Blast. 😔

 

2 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

Same, I've gotten as high as 30 before abandoning it.   And that's a shame.  Energy Blast is a cool looking set, but the slot tax on top of the set being somewhat middling even without considering the KB is the killer.  Peacebringers, by contrast, tend to have the tools to use KB as well as one can, although I've still never taken Nova.

Slot a Knockback to Knockdown in Explosive Blast, and Nova.  The KB/KD tax is trivial because those are the only two that truly scatter enemies.  Everything else let fly.  Use Energy Torrent to send clusters back into debuff patches.  With this method you are primarily only knocking a singular target back.  Aim them towards a wall or a corner.  Then you'll find other situations where sending an opponent sailing over an edge, or rolling down a hill a great benefit.  I haven't seen a single complaint when sending an Immunes Surgeon screaming over a cliff.

 

Why are people bad at knockback?  Because they're never given the opportunity to practice because of the widespread hate, and forum reputation.  The cycle just repeats.

Edited 20 hours ago by The Trouble
Explosive Blast apparently doesn't scatter.

[Psi-bolt]

5 minutes ago, The Trouble said:

 

Slot a Knockback to Knockdown in Explosive Blast, and Nova.  The KB/KD tax is trivial because those are the only two that truly scatter enemies.  Everything else let fly.  Use Energy Torrent to send clusters back into debuff patches.  With this method you are primarily only knocking a singular target back.  Aim them towards a wall or a corner.  Then you'll find other situations where sending an opponent sailing over an edge, or rolling down a hill a great benefit.  I haven't seen a single complaint when sending an Immunes Surgeon screaming over a cliff.

 

Why are people bad at knockback?  Because they're never given the opportunity to practice because of the widespread hate, and forum reputation.  The cycle just repeats.

 

I actually don't like it on the ST either.  I tend to keep ranged characters at range and sometimes the STs knock the enemy out of range.   I actually bought enough enhancers for every power in the set, but I just found the set not worth the trouble.  I then rolled a Water Blaster and got her to 50 in 3 days.   KD is just so much better in most situations, along with Water just being a better set in general.

[Maelwys]

9 minutes ago, The Trouble said:

Slot a Knockback to Knockdown in Explosive Blast, and Nova.  The KB/KD tax is trivial because those are the only two that truly scatter enemies. 

I did wonder if an effect that reverses radial knockback might be viable... so that instead of being hurled away from the central point of an AoE mobs would instead get pulled towards it. The revamped Battleaxe PBAoE has something similar (Axe Cyclone - essentially "knockback plus inverted repel") even if it was recently nerfed.

There's probably a Spaceballs meme in there somewhere...

[Forager]

3 hours ago, Maelwys said:

However a bad knockback player can still be a major PITA on a team

 

A stunning revelation!

[Maelwys]

5 minutes ago, Forager said:

A stunning revelation!

[Psyonico]

54 minutes ago, The Trouble said:

Slot a Knockback to Knockdown in Explosive Blast, and Nova.  The KB/KD tax is trivial because those are the only two that truly scatter enemies

Do you think that explosive blast has radial knock back? Because it doesn't.  Every knock back power in Energy Blast knocks directly away from the caster.

 

Therefore, Explosive Blast and Energy Torrent do the exact same amount of scatter.

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 hour ago, bAss_ackwards said:

KB is the reason I can't bring myself to play Energy Blast. 😔

 

1 hour ago, Psi-bolt said:

Same, I've gotten as high as 30 before abandoning it.   And that's a shame.  Energy Blast is a cool looking set, but the slot tax on top of the set being somewhat middling even without considering the KB is the killer.  Peacebringers, by contrast, tend to have the tools to use KB as well as one can, although I've still never taken Nova.

 

This is the beauty of this game!  There are fifteen different blast sets, and if you like one, you can play it.  You can play the hell out of it!  And if you don't like one, you can not play it.  You can not play the hell out of it!  What I do not accept is someone not liking a set then calling for a mandate on how it must be changed.  Knockback is a bit of a sticky wicket, I admit, since it can adversely affect people other than the user.

 

Hold on a sec, I see a cloud formation that I do not like the looks of, gotta go yell at it, bbl.

[Psi-bolt]

15 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Do you think that explosive blast has radial knock back? Because it doesn't.  Every knock back power in Energy Blast knocks directly away from the caster.

 

Therefore, Explosive Blast and Energy Torrent do the exact same amount of scatter.

 

Is that right?  So if I target an NPC at 12 O'Clock and there are NPCs at 10 and 2 they will all go in a straight line in the same direction?   I can't test it now but I thought that they would move away from you, yes, but the 10 O'Clock NPC and the 2 O'Clock NPC will go in a NW and NE direction respectively (assuming 12 is N).  

[Psi-bolt]

3 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

 

This is the beauty of this game!  There are fifteen different blast sets, and if you like one, you can play it.  You can play the hell out of it!  And if you don't like one, you can not play it.  You can not play the hell out of it!  What I do not accept is someone not liking a set then calling for a mandate on how it must be changed.  Knockback is a bit of a sticky wicket, I admit, since it can adversely affect people other than the user.

 

Hold on a sec, I see a cloud formation that I do not like the looks of, gotta go yell at it, bbl.

 

Two things:

 

1. Despite Powerhouse's rejection, I still just want an easy way to turn the KB off FOR ME.  I don't want to change the set at all.
2. As for not playing it, I have severe altoholism and I have sought treatment.  I have gotten every AT to 50 and nearly all Blast sets.   I'm running out of options.  I even think I'll wind up picking the Energy Blaster up at some point and finishing them begrudgingly.