I don't get the love for Poison

[JayboH]

Help me understand.  This set could use an overhaul at first glance.

 

The heal is anemic and more importantly slow moving unlike other single-target heals from other sets.  Could benefit from having a splash AOE mechanic or have the toss sped up a bit.

 

The way the two main debuffs work is that in order to get a target to have the full debuff, you need to spam the main target and another nearby target with another casting.  The AOE splash debuff outside of the main target only get hit with half the debuff you just tossed, and the area of effect for both is only 8 feet.  Envenom and Weaken - the end cost is fine and the AOE is fine it's just the weird half-measure part that bugs me, as they seem to have been designed to encourage spamming more than once every mob.  Even if you cast it twice, those that aren't directly selected only get two half-debuff effects layered (if they even stack.)  

  

Neuro breath is fine, I kind of wish the breath animation for all breath powers were a little quicker but I have no complaints against this power.

 

I like Elixir of Life.  It adds fun flavor to a rez.  No issues.

 

Antidote is fine.  Would be nice as an AOE like Kinetic's but this works fine as is.

 

Paralytic Poison hold is kind of odd here.  It seems to be a clone of Petrifying Gaze in Dark, and both could use some flavor.  Perhaps just give it a decent toxic dot?  

  

Poison Trap is ok, I know it's not as great as the Traps version but I can't say anything bad.  The endurance drain component is an interesting choice.  

  

Venomous Gas - ok, here is the big one.  Nice strong power, good size, end cost makes sense, but outside of the other two debuffs you don't have much to help you survive being in the middle of mobs.  Granted, that's not the case with controllers using it but defenders and corruptors don't have that luxury.  You have a PBAOE that grabs aggro and at the same time have a cone power with a slightly long animation in the same set with no buffs or heals for yourself.  The tohit debuff is weaker than direct target Weaken's, and there is a small damage debuff in here, but I still think overall this set kind of works against itself in some ways, and the way the splash debuffs work just means you spend less time doing other non-poison set stuff, or you just attack more often against lightly debuffed targets instead.

 

It would have been cool to have some DoTs added to a set with this theme.

[MoonSheep]

- it’s best on defenders due to the stronger debuff values. i wouldn’t play it on other sets

- the heal is fine, i don’t want people to live, more opportunities for tasty veng

- the debuff values are very nice

- this then is complimented nicely by damage procs

- this is the overall synergy of the set, debuffs + damage procs = yey

- venomous gas is one of the best debuffs in the game. 15ft radius, 0.5s tick rate. minus res, def, damage and to hit. godly.

- poison can quickly get an AV to -95% damage, very nice

- inspirations exist, use them to stay alive

[JayboH]

1 minute ago, MoonSheep said:

- it’s best on defenders due to the stronger debuff values. i wouldn’t play it on other sets

- the heal is fine, i don’t want people to live, more opportunities for tasty veng

- the debuff values are very nice

- this then is complimented nicely by damage procs

- this is the overall synergy of the set, debuffs + damage procs = yey

- venomous gas is one of the best debuffs in the game. 15ft radius, 0.5s tick rate. minus res, def, damage and to hit. godly.

- poison can quickly get an AV to -95% damage, very nice

- inspirations exist, use them to stay alive

Interesting.  Keep a set weak on purpose as a reason to use Vengeance in the Leadership pool.  

 

What do you proc up and with what? 

 

My guess is that the idea is to really super load Poison Trap and toss Weaken before jumping in with Venomous, since the goal is to get in the middle of mobs with it.  Strong reminder here that a powerset balance relies on using Single Origin Enhancements...  

  

You'll need that high damage debuff because of the anemic heal apparently.

[MoonSheep]

3 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Interesting.  Keep a set weak on purpose as a reason to use Vengeance in the Leadership pool.  

 

What do you proc up and with what? 

 

My guess is that the idea is to really super load Poison Trap and toss Weaken before jumping in with Venomous, since the goal is to get in the middle of mobs with it.  Strong reminder here that a powerset balance relies on using Single Origin Enhancements...  

  

You'll need that high damage debuff because of the anemic heal apparently.

 

i have a poison/fire/fire def and load the longer recharge damage powers with procs. e.g char has 5 damage procs which turns it into a delete button. most others have 3-4, it can really churn out the damage figures on enemies which are debuffed 

 

i also rarely solo, so someone else tends to take the alpha

[JayboH]

2 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i have a poison/fire/fire def and load the longer recharge damage powers with procs. e.g char has 5 damage procs which turns it into a delete button. most others have 3-4, it can really churn out the damage figures on enemies which are debuffed 

 

i also rarely solo, so someone else tends to take the alpha

Yeah, that's my goal too, but I've seen aggro stripped due to proximity with Venomous.  Would be kind of cool to see mobs slowly run as if Venomous was a moving caltrops patch maybe.  I don't suppose you have a build you enjoy that you could share?

[Wimbochismo]

43 minutes ago, JayboH said:

being in the middle of mobs.

 

With a 15ft radius I've actually had huge success using VG while Hovering above enemies on my Poison/Ice/Ice Defender. You can technically stay at the "ranged" designation by using it this way. I built it out like a tank with nearly 45 ranged def and 45 S/L/E/N. Also took RoP and Hoarfrost for a heal.

 

I routinely assist the tank by rounding up enemies and turning into their fancy hood ornament. I also occasionally back up tank if there is none available, due to the huge aggro on VG.

[JayboH]

3 minutes ago, Wimbochismo said:

 due to the huge aggro on VG.

Yeah I mentioned earlier I've seen it strip mobs from melee AT's aggro.  

 

Isn't it weird what you have to do to get the other two debuffs at full strength on targets (referencing the splash mechanic specific to this set.)

[Psyonico]

3 hours ago, JayboH said:

Antidote is fine.  Would be nice as an AOE like Kinetic's but this works fine as is.

I should point out that only the damage resistance in ID is AoE, the mez protection is ST.

[JayboH]

25 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

I should point out that only the damage resistance in ID is AoE, the mez protection is ST.

Thanks

[Wimbochismo]

4 hours ago, JayboH said:

two debuffs at full strength on targets

 

Arguably, -dmg res is one of the better debuffs. Application and uptime will factor into this for Defender**

 

Poison: VG = -25 in PBAoE range. Envenom = -40 for 30s. Envenom = -20 adjacent for 30s. Totaling -85 tight aoe res with a relatively fast uptime, if a bit fiddly. However, -65 singles reliably.

 

Cold: Sleet = -30. Heat Loss = -30. Totaling -60 aoe res but requires recharge for aoe uptime ++ for multiple applications of Sleet.

 

Radiation: Enervating = -30 toggle. Fallout = -50 for 30s. Totaling -80 aoe res but (Fallout) isn't often taken and has a very long recharge.

 

Sonic: Disruption = -30 toggle aoe. Sonic Siphon = -30 singles. Totaling -60 single/aoe target total res.

 

Trick: Entangling = -20 singles. Disruption = -40 aoe. Totaling -60 aoe/single targets.

 

I'm sure I'm missing other applications, but this should give a decent breakdown of -res for different power sets. Poison tends to pull away from the others when it comes to -dmg res. This is discounting -regen and other fun stuffs that power sets may apply.

[Uun]

I've got a Poison/Sonic defender and an Illusion/Poison controller. On the defender I skipped the heal entirely. (When I built the controller 5 years ago, skipping the heal wasn't an option and I haven't done a respec since.) In addition to Poison Trap, I slot procs in Envenom, Neurotoxic Breath and Paralytic Poison. I play almost entirely in melee range, which allows Venomous Gas to stack with Weaken and Envenom. On the defender I usually open with Poison Trap, which disables the spawn long enough to fire all the debuffs, then I fire my nuke. This leaves the bosses and maybe some lieutenants. Shredding bosses one-on-one is easy. The only time I run into trouble is with foes that like to stay at range, especially those that mezz (i.e., Rikti Mentalists/Mesmerists, Tarantula Mistresses/Queens).

[MoonSheep]

18 hours ago, JayboH said:

Yeah, that's my goal too, but I've seen aggro stripped due to proximity with Venomous.  Would be kind of cool to see mobs slowly run as if Venomous was a moving caltrops patch maybe.  I don't suppose you have a build you enjoy that you could share?

 

here's what i'm currently using. i prefer min/max builds with a lot of insps for speed runs rather than roleplay or iron man challenges that build for defense etc, i appreciate it's not everyones cup of tea

 

i expect there's some further opportunities for optimisation, the focus is mostly on maximum damage output through the debuff + proc combo

 

POISON FIRE 2025 - Hero Defender
Build plan made with Mids Reborn v3.7.14 rev. 3
──────────────────────────────

• Primary powerset: Poison
• Secondary powerset: Fire Blast
• Pool powerset (#1): Leaping
• Pool powerset (#2): Leadership
• Pool powerset (#3): Teleportation
• Pool powerset (#4): Speed
• Epic powerset: Fire Mastery
  

──────────────────────────────

Powers taken:

Level 1: Envenom

• A: Achilles' Heel: Chance for Res Debuff
• 7: Touch of Lady Grey: Chance for Negative Damage
• 19: Lysosome Exposure
• 34: Lysosome Exposure
• 37: Lysosome Exposure
  

Level 1: Fire Blast

• A: Decimation: Accuracy/Damage
• 3: Decimation: Damage/Endurance
• 3: Decimation: Damage/Recharge
• 5: Decimation: Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
• 5: Decimation: Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
  

Level 2: Weaken

• A: Siphon Insight: ToHit Debuff
• 7: Siphon Insight: Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
• 34: Siphon Insight: Accuracy/ToHit Debuff
• 34: Siphon Insight: Accuracy/Recharge
  

Level 4: Super Jump

• A: Blessing of the Zephyr: Knockback Reduction (4 points)
  

Level 6: Fire Ball

• A: Annihilation: Chance for Res Debuff
• 11: Positron's Blast: Chance of Damage(Energy)
• 11: Javelin Volley: Chance of Damage(Lethal)
• 17: Bombardment: Chance for Fire Damage
• 17: Ragnarok: Damage
• 19: Nucleolus Exposure
  

Level 8: Alkaloid

• A: Panacea: Heal/Endurance
• 9: Panacea: Heal
  

Level 10: Combat Jumping

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
  

Level 12: Elixir of Life

• A: Steadfast Protection: Knockback Protection
• 15: Gladiator's Armor: TP Protection +3% Def (All)
• 21: Unbreakable Guard: +Max HP
• 21: Invention: Recharge Reduction
  

Level 14: Assault

• A: Invention: Endurance Reduction
  

Level 16: Maneuvers

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
  

Level 18: Vengeance

• A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• 45: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Recharge
• 46: Shield Wall: +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
  

Level 20: Aim

• A: Invention: Recharge Reduction
• 36: Invention: Recharge Reduction
• 40: Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control: Chance for Build Up
  

Level 22: Poison Trap

• A: Fury of the Gladiator: Chance for Res Debuff
• 23: Neuronic Shutdown: Chance of Damage(Psionic)
• 23: Obliteration: Chance for Smashing Damage
• 33: Scirocco's Dervish: Chance of Damage(Lethal)
• 33: Ghost Widow's Embrace: Chance of Damage(Psionic)
• 33: Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage
  

Level 24: Blaze

• A: Apocalypse: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 25: Apocalypse: Damage/Endurance
• 25: Apocalypse: Damage
• 27: Apocalypse: Damage/Recharge/Accuracy
• 27: Apocalypse: Recharge/Accuracy
• 29: Gladiator's Javelin: Chance of Damage(Toxic)
  

Level 26: Venomous Gas

• A: Enzyme Exposure
• 29: Enzyme Exposure
• 31: Achilles' Heel: Chance for Res Debuff
• 40: Touch of Lady Grey: Chance for Negative Damage
  

Level 28: Blazing Bolt

• A: Superior Vigilant Assault: Accuracy/Damage
• 40: Superior Vigilant Assault: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• 42: Superior Vigilant Assault: Damage/Endurance/RechargeTime
• 43: Decimation: Chance of Build Up
• 43: Sting of the Manticore: Chance of Damage(Toxic)
• 43: Gladiator's Javelin: Chance of Damage(Toxic)
  

Level 30: Inferno

• A: Armageddon: Chance for Fire Damage
• 31: Armageddon: Damage/Recharge
• 31: Armageddon: Damage
• 42: Eradication: Chance for Energy Damage
• 45: Scirocco's Dervish: Chance of Damage(Lethal)
• 45: Obliteration: Chance for Smashing Damage
  

Level 32: Teleport Target

• A: Blessing of the Zephyr: Knockback Reduction (4 points)
  

Level 35: Char

• A: Unbreakable Constraint: Chance for Smashing Damage
• 36: Ghost Widow's Embrace: Chance of Damage(Psionic)
• 36: Neuronic Shutdown: Chance of Damage(Psionic)
• 37: Gladiator's Net: Chance of Damage(Lethal)
• 37: Gladiator's Javelin: Chance of Damage(Toxic)
• 39: Invention: Accuracy
  

Level 38: Fire Shield

• A: Titanium Coating: Resistance
• 39: Titanium Coating: Resistance/Endurance
• 39: Titanium Coating: Resistance/Recharge
• 42: Titanium Coating: Endurance/Recharge
• 50: Steadfast Protection: Resistance/+Def 3%
  

Level 41: Teleport

• A: Invention: Range
  

Level 44: Fold Space

• A: Invention: Accuracy
• 46: Invention: Recharge Reduction
• 46: Invention: Recharge Reduction
  

Level 47: Greater Fire Sword

• A: Hecatomb: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 48: Mako's Bite: Chance of Damage(Lethal)
• 48: Touch of Death: Chance of Damage(Negative)
• 48: Gladiator's Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage
• 50: Hecatomb: Damage
• 50: Nucleolus Exposure
  

Level 49: Rise of the Phoenix

• A: Invention: Recharge Reduction
  

──────────────────────────────

Inherents:

Level 1: Vigilance

Level 1: Brawl

• (Empty)
  

Level 1: Sprint

• (Empty)
  

Level 2: Rest

• (Empty)
  

Level 1: Swift

• (Empty)
  

Level 1: Hurdle

• (Empty)
  

Level 1: Health

• A: Numina's Convalesence: +Regeneration/+Recovery
• 13: Panacea: +Hit Points/Endurance
• 15: Miracle: +Recovery
  

Level 1: Stamina

• A: Performance Shifter: Chance for +End
• 9: Invention: Endurance Modification
• 13: Invention: Endurance Modification
  

Level 49: Quick Form

Level 4: Double Jump

 

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[Hedgefund]

I've got a Poison at 50 (t4d, etc etc) for each of the 4 ATs that offer it.  I kind of dig it but OP's points are fair.  I do think VG is just that good but it does take a strong build to make the most of it.  I imagine a ride with just SOs would be rough.

 

One major complaint is both thematic and for game play - no meaningful -regen.  Envenom, 50% (looks like it's the same for all ATs).  The temp power Envenom Daggers is 5x that!  (to preempt the "well akshully" crew, yes the duration for Poison's power is longer and can be slotted for acc).  

 

But hey, at least you're not playing a Poison MM, where the VG analog (Noxious Gas) has a 300 second base recharge and 20 second duration.

Edited Saturday at 06:00 PM by Hedgefund

[kelika2]

It is either contrarianism or people who dont get very far, like level 15max but still claim to be experts.

and if, you can imagine it, old warcraft theorycrafters vs practicality.  on paper vs function

 

other factors can be something like if the team has a cold dom and everyone has high defenses as it is and just plowing through the mission the said poison user isnt being super helpful but not useless either so they can claim poison is good.

 

and to top all that off, city of heroes is not a hard game most of the time.  and the times where you make it hard people are not asking for a poison user

 

between chance to miss

travel time on said spits.  like if you use the -acc spit on an unagroed group they should hit you with an alpha strike before the -acc is applied to their rolls

and the splash effect was a nice improvement to poison but half power on all but primary is.. pretty low.  -25% tohit on main target and 12.5% on everything else isnt much when something like trick arrow, dark miasma or third thing is bringing in the -tohit way harder and more reliable

 

anyways, 1000 character slots, just be yourself, yaddayaddayadda this is one of those things you have to experience yourself if you are not convinced 

[kelika2]

43 minutes ago, Hedgefund said:

Envenom, 50%

the cap is like -1000%

[dukedukes]

I don't think poison is enjoyed by everyone. Personally I like it for easy -res application. Barely any time is spent using poisons kit for big payoff. You get to spend more time on your other powers.

 

You do have to solve survivability to an extent, I've had success on a troller taking alphas with heavy defense investment and success on a corruptor with almost pure damage investment, for the rare time I get in over my head I've got a self rez.

[JayboH]

On 8/23/2025 at 12:02 PM, MoonSheep said:

 

here's what i'm currently using. i prefer min/max builds with a lot of insps for speed runs rather than roleplay or iron man challenges that build for defense etc, i appreciate it's not everyones cup of tea

 

i expect there's some further opportunities for optimisation, the focus is mostly on maximum damage output through the debuff + proc combo

If I include stuff like LOTG, you have a whopping 45 procs on this character.  

[WuTang]

My hot take on Poison.....

 

Not that I'm an expert or even have really anything to add that is drastically different from what's already been said, just that my Poison guy is brand new and hit 50 just days ago.

 

I should also admit that my guy is a Defender, but I imagine that a Corruptor in my hands would've stumbled down the same path.

 

My experience was a rough ride while leveling. Possibly because I skipped Poison Trap, thus losing my AOE soft damage mitigation, but my guy is a dragon themed hero and him laying a trap didn't make sense. BUT, at 50, with all my enhancements catalyzed to superior and some incarnates, the build works wonderfully...even exemp'd. Is it my favorite toon, no not really, but it was built for theme first, so it's not optimized by any stretch. However, it is fun being a dragon spitting poison and breathing fire. The cones are not ideal I know, so I set a macro for Combat Teleport to back me out of the crowd 50 feet so I can breathe fire and poison, then I just hop back in. Any way I digress....

 

Poison is a solid set, IMO, but for me at least, that is after 50.

 

I do have a theme for a mad scientist build for poison. I'm thinking Poison/Rad Blast and dip into the Experimentation pool. I will need to address the end use though since I will want to maintain Speed of Sound so I can still port around. But this will allow me to take Poison Trap!

Edited yesterday at 02:53 PM by WuTang

[Maelwys]

On 8/23/2025 at 5:57 AM, Wimbochismo said:

I'm sure I'm missing other applications, but this should give a decent breakdown of -res for different power sets. 

 

FWIW Storm and Dark Miasma are the other ones that springs to mind.

 

Freezing Rain is essentially Sleet but with -40% base res instead of -30%. Tar Patch is essentially Sleet without the damage/knockback. Since they all have a 60s base recharge time and a 15s+30s=~45s duration, you can get two copies out reasonably easily and three at a push (so -60%-90% res for Darks, -80%-120% res for Stormies and -90%-120% for ColdDoms). But it takes a while to layer it all up. Poison spits its maximum level of debuffery out in seconds.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Poison is a premiere "make the team go faster" set when it's played in the aggressive manner suggested by Frosticus in his guide to poisons. The rapid ramp-up of resistance debuffs, in particular, helps to make this true. 

Given the ease with which one can make thematic characters, the way the poison set promotes an aggressive playstyle that many embrace and enjoy, and the extent to which it can speed up a team by acting as a force multiplier, it's not surprising that there are quite a few who really like the set. 

[WuTang]

6 minutes ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

Poison is a premiere "make the team go faster" set when it's played in the aggressive manner suggested by Frosticus in his guide to poisons.

 

This has been my experience in +4 ITFs and....well actually all the TFs I've been in. The "hard" targets are no longer hard. The EBs in an ITF can beat they chest all they want but they don't stop melting. I was in a Manti yesterday and the Paragon-whatevers, the bosses that go invulnerable with a sliver of health, yeah doesn't matter if I'm beside them. 

 

The only problem I've encountered since getting built out is aggro. I seem to pull off everyone and if I run in first I'll likely be hitting RotP.

 

On the other hand at 50 and with what incarnates I've got going, I fair pretty well against a group of ~10 no matter the makeup even at +4.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Even though it means not having a nuke, I tend to prefer controllers when using the poison set.

It's typically not difficult to get ranged defense into the mid 30s on a controller. That level of ranged defense paired with good resistances seems to be a kind of "sweet spot" for surviving most +4x8 alphas when heading for the middle of new spawns to drop poison trap. If I'm not sure about how well taking an alpha will go for a particular spawn or if a team has very little support / healing and my poison character is the alpha taker then I'll have a control option that makes getting to the middle of new spawns safer. Plus, with one or more controller pets along for the journey single target damage can be very good, especially with the strength of resistance and defense debuffs offered by poison. Taking enflame boosts AOE damage and also works well against single hard targets. So, overall damage tends to be in a good enough place that the lack of a nuke isn't a significant concern. 

Another benefit of controllers over defenders is that you can get rune of protection from the sorcery pool at level 20, indomitable will from psionic mastery at level 35, melee core hybrid T4 after reaching level 50, and some knock protection from IOs; together these provide a fair amount of protection against mezzes and knocks even when exemp'd down for lower level task forces. 

It's not necessary to build with taking alphas in mind, though, as there is usually at least one other character on the team who can take alphas fairly well. In the end, there are a lot of good choices available for building a poison character.

Edited 22 hours ago by EnjoyTheJourney

[MoonSheep]

10 hours ago, JayboH said:

If I include stuff like LOTG, you have a whopping 45 procs on this character.  

 

i'm sure there's room for a few more!

 

i'd suggest having a go on the test server. when a boss has -65% res from envenom and venomous gas, the procs hit with a good amount of damage. char and greater fire sword having 9 procs between them with a combined animation of 2.44 seconds really lays out some good damage, followed by blaze and blazing bolt both having 1s animations

 

it's great for teams when someone also has a -res power. add a kin and you're truly cooking with gas

[JayboH]

5 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i'm sure there's room for a few more!

 

i'd suggest having a go on the test server. when a boss has -65% res from envenom and venomous gas, the procs hit with a good amount of damage. char and greater fire sword having 9 procs between them with a combined animation of 2.44 seconds really lays out some good damage, followed by blaze and blazing bolt both having 1s animations

 

it's great for teams when someone also has a -res power. add a kin and you're truly cooking with gas

 

If we are going to discuss the strength of a set we should probably acknowledge its state when using strictly SOs since the claim is always that they cater balance to them.  This goes beyond the first step of the direct opposite of that, by not even using sets designed to enhance an ability to its highest strength but to use every power available to hold procs that do stuff the powers were never designed to do.  Very fun though, that's for sure.

[JayboH]

6 hours ago, WuTang said:

 

This has been my experience in +4 ITFs and....well actually all the TFs I've been in. The "hard" targets are no longer hard. The EBs in an ITF can beat they chest all they want but they don't stop melting. I was in a Manti yesterday and the Paragon-whatevers, the bosses that go invulnerable with a sliver of health, yeah doesn't matter if I'm beside them. 

 

The only problem I've encountered since getting built out is aggro. I seem to pull off everyone and if I run in first I'll likely be hitting RotP.

 

On the other hand at 50 and with what incarnates I've got going, I fair pretty well against a group of ~10 no matter the makeup even at +4.

One of my main focuses in the original post was to point out how wonky the two main debuffs are however - that only the main target gets a full strength debuff and even then it is not the highest debuff you can get on the main target because if you hit a nearby target with the same debuff only then will the first target get the full+splash debuffs.  If a target is hit with two splashes, do they stack if the targeted enemy is different for each splash?  It's weird as heck, and then as I mentioned you have a power that encourages melee range while also having a ranged cone combined without the ability to survive being in melee depending on the scenario.