My fear about this game

[Locsmith]

I’m going to post a brilliant idea I read over on the donations page.  The person suggested taking the $15 you would pay for a monthly subscription and trying to donate when the donation window opens.  If you are not successful, put that $15 in a savings account.  Next month do the same but if you miss the donation window put that $15 in the same savings account.  Now you have $30.  Keep that up every month.  Now if/when the donations slow down, and you finally get an opportunity to donate, you can take all the funds from the saving account for your donation.  Depending on how long it takes, it could be hundreds!

[jubakumbi]

I’m going to post a brilliant idea I read over on the donations page.  The person suggested taking the $15 you would pay for a monthly subscription and trying to donate when the donation window opens.  If you are not successful, put that $15 in a savings account.  Next month do the same but if you miss the donation window put that $15 in the same savings account.  Now you have $30.  Keep that up every month.  Now if/when the donations slow down, and you finally get an opportunity to donate, you can take all the funds from the saving account for your donation.  Depending on how long it takes, it could be hundreds!

 

If they could find a way to leaglly just take all the excess donations and give that to 'real life heroes' - vets, fire-rescue, orphanages - IMO, it could turn into something bigger....

 

I can imagine a legal way for a non-profit to pass on to another one, but IANAL.

[justicebeliever]

I’m going to post a brilliant idea I read over on the donations page.  The person suggested taking the $15 you would pay for a monthly subscription and trying to donate when the donation window opens.  If you are not successful, put that $15 in a savings account.  Next month do the same but if you miss the donation window put that $15 in the same savings account.  Now you have $30.  Keep that up every month.  Now if/when the donations slow down, and you finally get an opportunity to donate, you can take all the funds from the saving account for your donation.  Depending on how long it takes, it could be hundreds!

 

If they could find a way to leaglly just take all the excess donations and give that to 'real life heroes' - vets, fire-rescue, orphanages - IMO, it could turn into something bigger....

 

I can imagine a legal way for a non-profit to pass on to another one, but IANAL.

 

I'm not a lawyer either but I do a lot of consulting for them. Homecoming by itself is not a charity...There are specific types of causes for a 501©(3) - religious, charitable, scientific, literary, or educational purposes, for testing for public safety, to foster national or international amateur sports competition, for the prevention of cruelty to children, women, or animals.  And we don't fit in any of these buckets.

 

So my guess is that we will become a "Friends" organization that assists another charitable organization by donating funds to another charity.  In fact I've been championing the exact same idea on the donations threads (think I got the idea from you and Burnt Toast)

[incantation]

I’m going to post a brilliant idea I read over on the donations page.  The person suggested taking the $15 you would pay for a monthly subscription and trying to donate when the donation window opens.  If you are not successful, put that $15 in a savings account.  Next month do the same but if you miss the donation window put that $15 in the same savings account.  Now you have $30.  Keep that up every month.  Now if/when the donations slow down, and you finally get an opportunity to donate, you can take all the funds from the saving account for your donation.  Depending on how long it takes, it could be hundreds!

 

If they could find a way to leaglly just take all the excess donations and give that to 'real life heroes' - vets, fire-rescue, orphanages - IMO, it could turn into something bigger....

 

I can imagine a legal way for a non-profit to pass on to another one, but IANAL.

 

I'm not a lawyer either but I do a lot of consulting for them. Homecoming by itself is not a charity...There are specific types of causes for a 501©(3) - religious, charitable, scientific, literary, or educational purposes, for testing for public safety, to foster national or international amateur sports competition, for the prevention of cruelty to children, women, or animals.  And we don't fit in any of these buckets.

 

So my guess is that we will become a "Friends" organization that assists another charitable organization by donating funds to another charity.  In fact I've been championing the exact same idea on the donations threads (think I got the idea from you and Burnt Toast)

 

 

I agree.  I'm part of a 501c3 and I dont think they will be able to get that status. I do think there is a realistic possibility of keeping it alive for years however. As long as there isn't intervention from NcSoft 

 

I logged in for the first time in seven years yesterday.  Love this game.  It more than holds up for todays audience.

[MunkiLord]

Not that I think that there is a credible threat that the game might go away again since the code is out in the wild now, I actually think that growing into a bigger mass of players paints a larger target on it. Think about it: if you were NCSoft, would it be worth your time to sue a small group that has a few hundred players and who are hosting their servers outside a territory where you have more legal power? What would you gain? How much money could such a group have to go after? Now, if the player base increased to 200k, that's something that may be worth taking over.

 

This is why the Homecoming Group shuts down the donation page when they reach their monthly cost goal. Whether there are two hundred or two hundred thousand players, what's the cost/benefit tradeoff for them to sue a group that has no more resources than what's needed to keep the servers running for another month?

 

It depends what a company wants to gain. If they are after money, then no, suing Homecoming wouldn't help with that. Their legal costs would be more than anything they could get from the group. If their goal is control and intimidating other potential private servers, then a lawsuit would very likely pay off. But NC Soft would have care in order to go that route, and right now it's not clear that the do. Blizzard is a good example of a company doing this. Their lawsuits against private servers and cheaters don't bring them immediate financial profit, it's about control and scaring off other potential people from doing similar things.

[Abraxus]

Not that I think that there is a credible threat that the game might go away again since the code is out in the wild now, I actually think that growing into a bigger mass of players paints a larger target on it. Think about it: if you were NCSoft, would it be worth your time to sue a small group that has a few hundred players and who are hosting their servers outside a territory where you have more legal power? What would you gain? How much money could such a group have to go after? Now, if the player base increased to 200k, that's something that may be worth taking over.

 

This is why the Homecoming Group shuts down the donation page when they reach their monthly cost goal. Whether there are two hundred or two hundred thousand players, what's the cost/benefit tradeoff for them to sue a group that has no more resources than what's needed to keep the servers running for another month?

 

It depends what a company wants to gain. If they are after money, then no, suing Homecoming wouldn't help with that. Their legal costs would be more than anything they could get from the group. If their goal is control and intimidating other potential private servers, then a lawsuit would very likely pay off. But NC Soft would have care in order to go that route, and right now it's not clear that the do. Blizzard is a good example of a company doing this. Their lawsuits against private servers and cheaters don't bring them immediate financial profit, it's about control and scaring off other potential people from doing similar things.

 

Perhaps, one of these days, these publishers will figure out ways to INCLUDE folks that want to play their stuff, rather than going to all the trouble to legally EXCLUDE them.  It's rather sad that the scenario just keeps repeating, but I suppose that is the nature of profit-driven business.  Money first, and foremost.  The customers who supply that money, much lower on the priority list. 

[justicebeliever]

It depends what a company wants to gain. If they are after money, then no, suing Homecoming wouldn't help with that. Their legal costs would be more than anything they could get from the group. If their goal is control and intimidating other potential private servers, then a lawsuit would very likely pay off. But NC Soft would have care in order to go that route, and right now it's not clear that the do. Blizzard is a good example of a company doing this. Their lawsuits against private servers and cheaters don't bring them immediate financial profit, it's about control and scaring off other potential people from doing similar things.

 

Perhaps, one of these days, these publishers will figure out ways to INCLUDE folks that want to play their stuff, rather than going to all the trouble to legally EXCLUDE them.  It's rather sad that the scenario just keeps repeating, but I suppose that is the nature of profit-driven business.  Money first, and foremost.  The customers who supply that money, much lower on the priority list.

 

Both Blizzard and NCSoft are public companies, which means they are *required* to generate profits for their shareholders.  Ideally that means increasing customer counts, or generating more revenue from existing customers.

 

Take Blizzard for example - they were going after private servers because those players were essentially playing the same game as paying customers, but for free.  Blizzard shut them down, knowing that many of the people they shut down would just say "Screw it...I'm done with you Blizzard" (which doesn't really hurt Blizzard because these people were playing for free), but some people would come crawling back resubscribe.

 

In NCSoft's case, I think part of the reason they aren't doing anything is because CoH is dead right now, and we aren't competing for customers...

[Liam1986]

These violent delights have violent ends

[Abraxus]

It depends what a company wants to gain. If they are after money, then no, suing Homecoming wouldn't help with that. Their legal costs would be more than anything they could get from the group. If their goal is control and intimidating other potential private servers, then a lawsuit would very likely pay off. But NC Soft would have care in order to go that route, and right now it's not clear that the do. Blizzard is a good example of a company doing this. Their lawsuits against private servers and cheaters don't bring them immediate financial profit, it's about control and scaring off other potential people from doing similar things.

 

Perhaps, one of these days, these publishers will figure out ways to INCLUDE folks that want to play their stuff, rather than going to all the trouble to legally EXCLUDE them.  It's rather sad that the scenario just keeps repeating, but I suppose that is the nature of profit-driven business.  Money first, and foremost.  The customers who supply that money, much lower on the priority list.

 

Both Blizzard and NCSoft are public companies, which means they are *required* to generate profits for their shareholders.  Ideally that means increasing customer counts, or generating more revenue from existing customers.

 

Take Blizzard for example - they were going after private servers because those players were essentially playing the same game as paying customers, but for free.  Blizzard shut them down, knowing that many of the people they shut down would just say "Screw it...I'm done with you Blizzard" (which doesn't really hurt Blizzard because these people were playing for free), but some people would come crawling back resubscribe.

 

In NCSoft's case, I think part of the reason they aren't doing anything is because CoH is dead right now, and we aren't competing for customers...

 

Yeah, profit.  Both boon, and bane to everything in our world.  These companies are typically so driven by the need/desire to meet unrealistically high quarterly growth expectations (remember when 3-5% annually was acceptable, as opposed to that much or more every quarter?), that they are pretty much willing to do ANYTHING to meet them.  Their profits drive society, but the means that they are willing to sink to in order to make them happen, denigrate it in ways that only get worse the closer one looks.  If you look at just about any important aspect of modern day life, it is not as good as it could be if pursuit of, and hyper-prioritization of profit, weren't as real as they are.  We don't have the infrastructure we could because of the cost.  We don't have the best healthcare because of the cost, and the fact that everyone from one end of the system, to the other is more interested in profit, than actual healthcare.  We don't have the best education, because education institutions have to make money.  Our journalistic integrity is a thing of the past, because unlike the old days, when news divisions were considered loss leaders (not required to make a profit), now they have to do things that guarantee more web activity, and more viewership, which sometimes collide with their basic responsibility to be absolutely truthful, and that has eroded trust in the whole process. 

 

So, when it comes our games, and the large companies that publish them, I never allow myself the luxury of believing that anything they do is for me as a customer.  It is primarily intended to contribute to the aforementioned unrealistic quarterly growth, demanded by those stockholders, and the hyper-overpaid management of those companies.  If they manage to provide something I find enjoyable, and I end up contributing to their pursuits of incalculable wealth, I have to live with the morals of that choice, knowing I contribute that system, despite knowing how wrong it is.  But, what choice have we got?

 

As for NCSoft in particular, I have said it before.  They never understood this game, didn't know how to properly market it, and if weren't for their US-based devs, it wouldn't have been as good as it was, or gone on for as long as it originally did.  In the end, they took it down, despite the fact that it was still making them money, to finance other games that were closer to their market comfort zone (at the height of the super hero craze in the US, and eventually, the world mind you), most or all of which subsequently went bust.  So, IMHO the best thing they could do is just continue not to care about the existence of this iteration of a game, which suites me right down to the ground.  If they refuse to find a way to be inclusive of the players who would have been willing to sign-on again if they had made it possible, then hopefully, they will just stay out of the picture, and let us continue to do what we love.  Be SUPER!

[Ironscarlet]

So people fear nc soft shutting down but I just read on mmorpg. NC soft just applied for copyright on Coh game code  May 24th 2019. Which surprised me. Iam no lawyer but maybe the reason ncsoft did not do anything is they couldn't and now even after they got the copyrigh, homecoming  was was here before May 24th so there could be a grandfather clause. Homecoming could have a good case to stay if ncsoft  advanced  to close.

 

Why would NC soft not have a copyright on the code before May 24th was this a huge blunder on there part?.

[justicebeliever]

So people fear nc soft shutting down but I just read on mmorpg. NC soft just applied for copyright on Coh game code  May 24th 2019. Which surprised me. Iam no lawyer but maybe the reason ncsoft did not do anything is they couldn't and now even after they got the copyrigh, homecoming  was was here before May 24th so there could be a grandfather clause. Homecoming could have a good case to stay if ncsoft  advanced  to close.

 

Why would NC soft not have a copyright on the code before May 24th was this a huge blunder on there part?.

 

Source please?

[Ironscarlet]

So people fear nc soft shutting down but I just read on mmorpg. NC soft just applied for copyright on Coh game code  May 24th 2019. Which surprised me. Iam no lawyer but maybe the reason ncsoft did not do anything is they couldn't and now even after they got the copyrigh, homecoming  was was here before May 24th so there could be a grandfather clause. Homecoming could have a good case to stay if ncsoft  advanced  to close.

 

Why would NC soft not have a copyright on the code before May 24th was this a huge blunder on there part?.

 

Source please?

 

 

So it was actually Massively  overpowered  interview with homecoming devs. Great reporting btw here the interview and attach is the gov doc with NC soft application. It's legit.

 

https://massivelyop.com/2019/07/08/city-of-heroes-homecoming-interview/

 

https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=8&ti=1,8&Search_Arg=cityofheroes&Search_Code=TALL&CNT=25&PID=Lpi4amZpBFdoUxvXFRKVs1OEB&SEQ=20190621110320&SID=1

[justicebeliever]

So people fear nc soft shutting down but I just read on mmorpg. NC soft just applied for copyright on Coh game code  May 24th 2019. Which surprised me. Iam no lawyer but maybe the reason ncsoft did not do anything is they couldn't and now even after they got the copyrigh, homecoming  was was here before May 24th so there could be a grandfather clause. Homecoming could have a good case to stay if ncsoft  advanced  to close.

 

Why would NC soft not have a copyright on the code before May 24th was this a huge blunder on there part?.

 

Source please?

 

 

So it was actually Massively  overpowered  interview with homecoming devs. Great reporting btw here the interview and attach is the gov doc with NC soft application. It's legit.

 

https://massivelyop.com/2019/07/08/city-of-heroes-homecoming-interview/

 

https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=8&ti=1,8&Search_Arg=cityofheroes&Search_Code=TALL&CNT=25&PID=Lpi4amZpBFdoUxvXFRKVs1OEB&SEQ=20190621110320&SID=1

 

Thanks that helped.  For clarity, you don't have to file for copyright.  Copyright protection is held by the authors of the copyrighted work, or whoever they transfer the rights to.  So, Cryptic held the copyright initially, maybe jointly with NCSoft as part of an agreement.  And i would wager real money that the negotiated exit of Cryptic from City of Heroes, assigned all copyirghts (filed or unfiled) to NCSoft.

 

Sadly, this might mean that NCSoft is preparing to protect their copyright somehow, and are just getting it into the public record as a prerequisite for legal action.

 

 

[Ironscarlet]

So people fear nc soft shutting down but I just read on mmorpg. NC soft just applied for copyright on Coh game code  May 24th 2019. Which surprised me. Iam no lawyer but maybe the reason ncsoft did not do anything is they couldn't and now even after they got the copyrigh, homecoming  was was here before May 24th so there could be a grandfather clause. Homecoming could have a good case to stay if ncsoft  advanced  to close.

 

Why would NC soft not have a copyright on the code before May 24th was this a huge blunder on there part?.

 

Source please?

 

 

So it was actually Massively  overpowered  interview with homecoming devs. Great reporting btw here the interview and attach is the gov doc with NC soft application. It's legit.

 

https://massivelyop.com/2019/07/08/city-of-heroes-homecoming-interview/

 

https://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v1=8&ti=1,8&Search_Arg=cityofheroes&Search_Code=TALL&CNT=25&PID=Lpi4amZpBFdoUxvXFRKVs1OEB&SEQ=20190621110320&SID=1

 

Thanks that helped.  For clarity, you don't have to file for copyright.  Copyright protection is held by the authors of the copyrighted work, or whoever they transfer the rights to.  So, Cryptic held the copyright initially, maybe jointly with NCSoft as part of an agreement.  And i would wager real money that the negotiated exit of Cryptic from City of Heroes, assigned all copyirghts (filed or unfiled) to NCSoft.

 

Sadly, this might mean that NCSoft is preparing to protect their copyright somehow, and are just getting it into the public record as a prerequisite for legal action.

 

Just curious  I did some digging this is the first application for city of heroes game code. Does that matter at all? Going all the way back to 2001 no one has ever applied for the game code.

[Legree]

Sadly, this might mean that NCSoft is preparing to protect their copyright somehow, and are just getting it into the public record as a prerequisite for legal action.

 

Possibly, but there are other reasons why they might be doing this now.  The code is out there and noone - least of all Homecoming - denies that the code belongs to NCSoft, but this may be to protect themselves in the event that said code is used by a third party for a knock-off.  NCSoft might be less concerned about Homecoming than it is about the prospect of "Town of Superhumans" appearing as a commercial product.

 

I'm no lawyer so that's pure speculation on my part - just a thought.

 

 

[Ironscarlet]

Sadly, this might mean that NCSoft is preparing to protect their copyright somehow, and are just getting it into the public record as a prerequisite for legal action.

 

Possibly, but there are other reasons why they might be doing this now.  The code is out there and noone - least of all Homecoming - denies that the code belongs to NCSoft, but this may be to protect themselves in the event that said code is used by a third party for a knock-off.  NCSoft might be less concerned about Homecoming than it is about the prospect of "Town of Superhumans" appearing as a commercial product.

 

I'm no lawyer so that's pure speculation on my part - just a thought.

 

That makes allot of sense.

[MerryMayhem]

I been lucky enough to donate once. If the donations slow down, I'll happily donate $15 per month to Homecoming for a long as they keep it running. That means they just need 500 people like me to keep it running. I think that doable.

[justicebeliever]

 

Just curious  I did some digging this is the first application for city of heroes game code. Does that matter at all? Going all the way back to 2001 no one has ever applied for the game code.

 

Is it odd?  Only a copyright attorney could tell you.  Does it matter legally?  No...there is ample evidence that the source code was created by Cryptic.  If I write a novel, never publish it, and 20 years later I found out someone else took a copy, published itwith some small changes, and copyrighted 15 years ago, legally (provided I had evidence) I am the copyright holder, and this mysterious someone else (we will call him KHHAAAANNNN!) would forfeit copyright because they were not the original author, and did not permission to publish it.

[justicebeliever]

 

Possibly, but there are other reasons why they might be doing this now.  The code is out there and noone - least of all Homecoming - denies that the code belongs to NCSoft, but this may be to protect themselves in the event that said code is used by a third party for a knock-off.  NCSoft might be less concerned about Homecoming than it is about the prospect of "Town of Superhumans" appearing as a commercial product.

 

I'm no lawyer so that's pure speculation on my part - just a thought.

 

I am not a lawyer either, just well versed in the basics of Intellectual Property laws.  All I think it means is that they are getting ready for some legal action.  No idea who, if anyone, is in their targets.  We are a big target, if only for our population size, but that doesn't mean they are aiming at us.  Your scenario could absolutely be case.

[echosam]

 

Just curious  I did some digging this is the first application for city of heroes game code. Does that matter at all? Going all the way back to 2001 no one has ever applied for the game code.

 

Is it odd?  Only a copyright attorney could tell you.  Does it matter legally?  No...there is ample evidence that the source code was created by Cryptic.  If I write a novel, never publish it, and 20 years later I found out someone else took a copy, published itwith some small changes, and copyrighted 15 years ago, legally (provided I had evidence) I am the copyright holder, and this mysterious someone else (we will call him KHHAAAANNNN!) would forfeit copyright because they were not the original author, and did not permission to publish it.

 

I think more like music. If I write a song, and somehow do something that shows I wrote it (I have a video recording of my band playing it at some bar, or whatever), it is always mine, even if I don't "officially" publish it. But, realistically, if I don't have a recording of it that I can prove that it predates the other guys, I would have a difficult time. Writing a book and not publishing it would be difficult to have proof your version pre-dated the later one the other guy published.

 

But, a more accurate example for this situations would be. If I wrote a song, recorded it, and performed it for years, but never published it. And it was common knowledge in the industry it was my song, I would probably have no problem proving ownership. But, then again, if I didn't publish it, I couldn't get royalties for others playing it, could I?

 

Maybe NCSoft isn't planning on shutting down Homecoming, just requesting royalties from us. They see the community is willing to pay to play, so maybe they wouldn't mind a cut for doing nothing....

 

Sure, you guys can go ahead and play our IP, but we want a $1/player/month in royalties for usage of our IP. Or, something like that.

[justicebeliever]

 

I think more like music. If I write a song, and somehow do something that shows I wrote it (I have a video recording of my band playing it at some bar, or whatever), it is always mine, even if I don't "officially" publish it. But, realistically, if I don't have a recording of it that I can prove that it predates the other guys, I would have a difficult time. Writing a book and not publishing it would be difficult to have proof your version pre-dated the later one the other guy published.

 

But, a more accurate example for this situations would be. If I wrote a song, recorded it, and performed it for years, but never published it. And it was common knowledge in the industry it was my song, I would probably have no problem proving ownership. But, then again, if I didn't publish it, I couldn't get royalties for others playing it, could I?

 

Maybe NCSoft isn't planning on shutting down Homecoming, just requesting royalties from us. They see the community is willing to pay to play, so maybe they wouldn't mind a cut for doing nothing....

 

Sure, you guys can go ahead and play our IP, but we want a $1/player/month in royalties for usage of our IP. Or, something like that.

 

Agreed.  Court cases are decided on the weight of the evidence, and the burden of proof always lies with the Plaintiff, not the defendant. 

 

And yes you could collect on those royalties...As the IP holder you decide what do with your IP, so if someone else is using it to make a profit, you will certainly be entitled to those profits should you bring suit.

 

Your NCSoft theory is definitely another possibility

[Myrmidon]

I think I speak for a lot of vets of CoX when I say I was thrilled beyond words to see this game actually come back. Not just come back but come back proper.

 

That being said, because this game is simply being run on charity, my fear is that in a couple of years or less that the hype will start to die down and folks will move onto  other games. This will eventually lead to the game dying again due to lack of funding, maintenance and just all around support.

 

Please please please try to get your friends, family or significant other on this game if they love games and haven’t played this before. I’d love to have this game around another decade or so.

 

Hopefully my fears are unfounded. So far I’ve gotten 3 new players hooked on the game .

 

Happy gaming and I’ll see you all out there .

 

Fear not...I'm not leaving. There is nothing out there that can pull me away from this game.

 

This.