page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Mastermind Archetype Adjustments

[tidge]

6 hours ago, Arbegla said:

 

Powerhouse posted a side by side comparison of 'Beta ToHit' vs 'Live ToHit' and even with the 'blunt' reduction in base tohit values, overall this change is better then before. It also only kicks in once you have 3 of the T1s and two of the T2s, so low levels shouldn't feel any different leveling up. 

 

This "kicks in" at levels 12/22-> Incarnate, so forgive me if I think the argument "but better at levels 1-21"! is the among the most disingenuous arguments I've heard about game balance. For crying out loud, "beginner's luck" is in play for those levels, so it's not like there wasn't already something in play at low levels.

[Dispari]

9 hours ago, Arbegla said:

This doesn't appear to be applying 'Recovery Rate' bonuses, unfortunately I don't have a print screen button (small keyboard) so I can't take screenshots. Can anyone else confirm that 'Recovery Rate' set bonuses are not transferring to the pets correctly?

 

Oh yeah, I reported this one at one point but forgot about it. Recovery doesn't work but +maxEnd does.

[Maelwys]

5 minutes ago, Dispari said:

Oh yeah, I reported this one at one point but forgot about it. Recovery doesn't work but +maxEnd does.

It's supposedly meant to be working as of this morning's patch... but the in-game info still says nope.

[MM]
 

 

[PET]

[tidge]

Thanks to all that reported it. I spent some time looking at the henchmen attributes and noticed this. 

 

Is the "Recharge time bonus" at 0% intentional?

 

I'm glad to see that the HP limits for T1/T2 have been reverted. I'm still non-plussed about the reduction in base ToHit for those henchmen (for most of the games content)... "Even Level Shift" means practically nothing to me if the effective ToHit chance nullifies it (sorry, I'm not buying the "but better at +3!" rationale" ... I understand there are concerns, but I think those concerns are so narrow that more typical content and playstyles are being ignored).

 

If the set bonus inheritances were better, and FWIW this is not something I ever wanted/asked for, I might be tempted to add more base accuracy to the MMs via set bonuses. Accuracy is one of the easiest (and largest) set bonuses to build for. I didn't really expect to be reconsidering having to change my preferred enhancement sets because of a new issue/page/panel.

[FupDup]

2 minutes ago, tidge said:

Is the "Recharge time bonus" at 0% intentional?

Henchmen are intentionally immune to +rech buffs because it would mess up their attack chains. 

It'd be nice if henchmen could get a different buff, like damage, in place of the "wasted" recharge. 

[Shin Magmus]

     I agree with the tweaks to the patches regarding HP.  I have 2 fairly optimized MMs, but I don't play them much and have no desire to make more because MMs face a laundry list of issues that no other AT has to.  The various AI shenanigans, clunky movement, slow speed, and inability to understand terrain/pathing means that MMs are categorically slower at moving through a map, and especially at STEALTHILY moving QUICKLY through a map to hit certain objectives while bypassing others, than *every other AT in the game.*  This immediately relegates MMs to F-tier below human-only Khelds and Sentinels on something as simple as mission 1 of a MLTF: where the MM is incapable of getting their pets to the web parts quickly and uh... alive.  The AT has so many weaknesses: that alone makes it okay (maybe even expected) for them to be strong in direct stationary combat.  But MMs have never been generally strong outside of extreme niche situations, and one of the biggest issues has always been how quickly T1 and T2 pets could die (no one-shot protection.)

 

     I strongly advise looking at further tweaks to the formulas to not hurt new MM players running +0 content, because that HP change was a gutpunch to these players and I'm glad it was reverted.  Their baseline performance really has no justification for being nerfed, please keep this in mind.  I was already working on respecs with tons of Max HP set bonuses just to keep my MMs playable.

 

     I think the wider community in this game really still doesn't understand just how slow and frustrating MM gameplay actually is.  Most people don't play them well, or don't have experience actually moving well and speedrunning content.  Human control + combat mobility (Combat Jumping, Hover + EM, or Combat Teleport) allows a non-MM AT to move between targets easily at a speed on average 300% to 400% faster than the MM pets.  Even with all the keybinds set up, when you use a "PetCom_All GoTo" keybind and command your army to move onto the spot near that boss, they genuinely sit there and think about it for a bit.  Then they try to run over, get stuck on terrain, get stuck on themselves, randomly doubleback on their path intermittently like drunkards, and eventually 4-5 of them get there but 1 is still stuck because who the fuck knows why.  Now you issue your attack command via another keybind but your pets are still partially staggered, and the stuck pets are using their weaker ranged attacks instead of their stronger melee attacks.  This is just the performance on mostly flat ground: add stairs to the equation and cut your DPS in half at least.  MM issues pervade every facet of actually playing the AT in a real mission, and these Pylon tests do not tell the whole story.

[Vinceq98]

59 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     I agree with the tweaks to the patches regarding HP.  I have 2 fairly optimized MMs, but I don't play them much and have no desire to make more because MMs face a laundry list of issues that no other AT has to.  The various AI shenanigans, clunky movement, slow speed, and inability to understand terrain/pathing means that MMs are categorically slower at moving through a map, and especially at STEALTHILY moving QUICKLY through a map to hit certain objectives while bypassing others, than *every other AT in the game.*  This immediately relegates MMs to F-tier below human-only Khelds and Sentinels on something as simple as mission 1 of a MLTF: where the MM is incapable of getting their pets to the web parts quickly and uh... alive.  The AT has so many weaknesses: that alone makes it okay (maybe even expected) for them to be strong in direct stationary combat.  But MMs have never been generally strong outside of extreme niche situations, and one of the biggest issues has always been how quickly T1 and T2 pets could die (no one-shot protection.)

 

     I strongly advise looking at further tweaks to the formulas to not hurt new MM players running +0 content, because that HP change was a gutpunch to these players and I'm glad it was reverted.  Their baseline performance really has no justification for being nerfed, please keep this in mind.  I was already working on respecs with tons of Max HP set bonuses just to keep my MMs playable.

 

     I think the wider community in this game really still doesn't understand just how slow and frustrating MM gameplay actually is.  Most people don't play them well, or don't have experience actually moving well and speedrunning content.  Human control + combat mobility (Combat Jumping, Hover + EM, or Combat Teleport) allows a non-MM AT to move between targets easily at a speed on average 300% to 400% faster than the MM pets.  Even with all the keybinds set up, when you use a "PetCom_All GoTo" keybind and command your army to move onto the spot near that boss, they genuinely sit there and think about it for a bit.  Then they try to run over, get stuck on terrain, get stuck on themselves, randomly doubleback on their path intermittently like drunkards, and eventually 4-5 of them get there but 1 is still stuck because who the fuck knows why.  Now you issue your attack command via another keybind but your pets are still partially staggered, and the stuck pets are using their weaker ranged attacks instead of their stronger melee attacks.  This is just the performance on mostly flat ground: add stairs to the equation and cut your DPS in half at least.  MM issues pervade every facet of actually playing the AT in a real mission, and these Pylon tests do not tell the whole story.

The amount of times I have died because I was out of bodyguard range because for some reason demons are the slowest of slow pets is immeasurable. I always rage quit when that happens because otherwise I'm very tanky. I tried group flight but then a whole new issue comes up and the damn pets get stuck floating INSIDE a floor or a doorway. Now I just summon the mobs to me through the teleportation powers.

[...]

59 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

 

     I think the wider community in this game really still doesn't understand just how slow and frustrating MM gameplay actually is.  Most people don't play them well, or don't have experience actually moving well and speedrunning content.  Human control + combat mobility (Combat Jumping, Hover + EM, or Combat Teleport) allows a non-MM AT to move between targets easily at a speed on average 300% to 400% faster than the MM pets.  

 

This is the elephant in the room that has not been addressed.

 

Accuracy boosts, more hp, etc are all nice. But at the end of the day what MM really need is a TP-henchmen-to-me power on a meaningfully short cool down. 

 

Unless the dev team can find a way to make henchies keep up with the MM when the MM has a travel power on.

 

I suspect they can't though. Pathing and AI issues seem much more complex than a simple TP power. 

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Shin Magmus said:

     I think the wider community in this game really still doesn't understand just how slow and frustrating MM gameplay actually is.  Most people don't play them well, or don't have experience actually moving well and speedrunning content.  

 

I deeply agree with this feel, although my own frustration (with MM gameplay) isn't rooted in the henchmen movement/pathing.

 

Attaboys to HC: The fast respawns, the global buffs, the useful slotting options for upgrades have all been GREAT!

 

Even though I play a MM almost every day, and have played a LOT of content with it (including non-BAF Incarnate Trials, FWIW) there is enough subtlety and variety of HOW I have to play MMs through different content that I'm unconvinced that there is a "one size fits most solution" to any of the different circumstances MMs "have trouble with"... because from my PoV most of the "trouble" is figuring out what the optimal approach is to the situation. Let's face it: players who gravitate to "same strategy, every time" or face-rolling keyboards don't want to invest extra effort into ALSO learning (more than one way) to play their MM.

 

I can believe that some fraction of players get frustrated with MMs and give up before level 22... but I doubt it was something like "henchmen missing attacks" that cracked the top ten list of hypothetical complaints. Henchmen need slots, and (especially at low levels) henchmen need support... and with power picks and slots at a premium below level 26, yeah... players gotta think about how to balance their choices (e.g. the player might just have to wait before getting Hasten/Kick/Tough/Weave)

 

I don't think players that PL to 50 are criminal, but the effect of skipped lessons (about slotting, about power picks) from lower level play are amplified for MMs in ways that don't really apply to most other ATs... so that it is easy to see criminally poorly played MM at 50+.

 

The reduction in base ToHit seems weirdly misplaced, as I'm not aware of any other AT that is getting hit with base reductions in ToHit (Accuracy changes in individual powers above level 22 would probably be more accurate) and if they were mentioned I didn't see any base decrease in the ToHit or Accuracy of Control/Dom/VEAT/Kheldian/Lore pets.

 

[Maelwys]

19 minutes ago, ... said:

I suspect they can't though. Pathing and AI issues seem much more complex than a simple TP power. 

I'm pretty sure they could theoretically give MMs a toggle with an only-affecting-henchmen Mag 100+ "reverse repel" effect; so that we can choose to vacuum all the little unruly smeggers up and then deposit them somewhere else after moving... (Perhaps even with a few animation tweaks? Robotics = Voltron Combine!)

[Dispari]

Fresh math number comparisons for my IOed MMs (the ninja one is a little sparse). None of these include buffs or powers from the secondary sets but does include Supremacy.
I did move some slotting where I could, like dropping +heal in Dark Empowerment, but some values may have slightly higher potential if I took the time to adjust to new options.

 

Necromancy (live):
Zombies: RES: 55% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 675; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Knights: RES: 62% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 903; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Lich: RES: 69% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 1132; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Necromancy (beta):
Zombies: RES: 58% (N/C), 56% (S), 55% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (R/F/C), 10% (all); HP: 699; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 17%

Knights: RES: 65% (N), 64% (C), 63% (S), 62% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (F/C), 10% (all); HP: 932; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 17%

Lich: RES: 72% (N), 71% (C), 70% (S), 69% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (F/C), 10% (all); HP: 1189; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 17%

 

---

 

Mercenaries (live):
Soldiers: RES: 65% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 29% (A), 17% (R), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Spec Ops: RES: 65% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 35% (A), 23% (R), 16% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Commando: RES: 65% (S/L), 43% F/C/T, 35% (all); DEF: 29% (A), 17% (R), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Mercenaries (beta):
Soldiers: RES: 71% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (A), 20% (R), 14% (E/N), 11% (M/S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 607; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 16%

Spec Ops: RES: 71% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 36% (A), 26% (R), 19% (E/N), 17% (M), 16% (S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 800; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 16%

Commando: RES: 71% (S/L), 44% (F/C), 43% (T), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (A), 20% (R), 14% (E/N), 11% (M/S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 993; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 16%

(Merc summon and buff animations are still pretty long compared to everyone else)
 

---

 

Ninjas (live):
Genin: RES: 35% (all); DEF: 42% (A), 23% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Jounin: RES: 35% (all); DEF: 60% (A), 27% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Oni: RES: 87% (F), 61% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 54% (A), 32% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Ninjas (beta):
Genin: RES: 38% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 35% (all); DEF: 43% (A), 25% (R), 24% (M), 10% (all); HP: 614; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 0%

Jounin: RES: 38% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 35% (all); DEF: 61% (A), 29% (R), 28% (M), 10% (all); HP: 807; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 0%

Oni: RES: 89% (F), 64% (S/L), 37% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 55% (A), 34% (R), 33% (M), 10% (all); HP: 1000; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

(Minor bug worth reporting, the pet you buff with your training abilities likes to stand there repeating the animation/sound on repeat until you move)

 

---

 

Demons (live):
Fire Demonling: RES: 90% (F), 76% (S/L), 62% (T), 57% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Gargoyle: RES: 87% (T), 81% (S/L), 80% (F), 57% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Prince: RES: 70% (T), 67% (S/L), 65% (C), 62% (F), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (C), 25% (A/S/L), 20% (F), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Demons (beta):
Fire Demonling: RES: 90% (F), 78% (S/L) 63% (C/T), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 25% (A), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 598; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 13%

Gargoyle: RES: 87% (T), 86% (F), 83% (S/L), 63% (C), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 25% (A), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 790; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 13%

Prince: RES: 71% (C), 70% (S/L/T), 68% (F), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 30% (C), 25% (A/S/L), 20% (F), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 983; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 13%

Overall feedback: You should be able to see how little the set bonuses actually provide at 40%. 50% wouldn't be much higher. 🥺

[Uun]

On 11/10/2025 at 5:19 PM, The Curator said:

40% of your Set Bonuses now applies to henchmen that are within range of Supremacy

Not sure this is possible, but could Accolades be included as well?

[tidge]

42 minutes ago, Dispari said:

Overall feedback: You should be able to see how little the set bonuses actually provide at 40%. 50% wouldn't be much higher. 🥺

 

I'm slightly curious why 100% isn't on the table... 

 

Folks who chase +Recharge, no effect (for stated reasons)

Folks who chase +Accuracy, easy to do with purples... and AFAIK these are the "largest" enhancement set boosts and would immediately address concerns about Henchmen hitting whatever...

Folks who chase MaxEnd, EndDiscount, MaxHP, Regen, Recovery.... these boosts are small, and would actually make sense for Henchmen performance (see problems with blue bar burn in hecnhmen)

 

Resistance and Defense global boosts are often pretty small... and it's not that hard to cap Defense anyway, and while I've personally never worried much about henchmen resistances, the recent back-and-forth about "surviving" seemed to be focused more on getting hit (defense) not on taking damage anyway

 

Damage boosts.... here i can see an area for slight concern, but for many of the sets that offer bigger damage boosts:

• Getting multiple damage boosts from the same set means surrendering other useful boosts (like Recharge)
• Damage boosts aren't that common, and many of those are gated at 4+ slots... so "reasonable trade-off"

[Vinceq98]

1 hour ago, Dispari said:

Fresh math number comparisons for my IOed MMs (the ninja one is a little sparse). None of these include buffs or powers from the secondary sets but does include Supremacy.
I did move some slotting where I could, like dropping +heal in Dark Empowerment, but some values may have slightly higher potential if I took the time to adjust to new options.

 

Necromancy (live):
Zombies: RES: 55% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 675; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Knights: RES: 62% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 903; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Lich: RES: 69% (S/C/N/P/T), 35% (L/F/E); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 1132; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Necromancy (beta):
Zombies: RES: 58% (N/C), 56% (S), 55% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (R/F/C), 10% (all); HP: 699; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 17%

Knights: RES: 65% (N), 64% (C), 63% (S), 62% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (F/C), 10% (all); HP: 932; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 17%

Lich: RES: 72% (N), 71% (C), 70% (S), 69% (P/T), 38% (E), 37% (F), 36% (L); DEF: 26% (A), 12% (E/N), 11% (F/C), 10% (all); HP: 1189; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 17%

 

---

 

Mercenaries (live):
Soldiers: RES: 65% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 29% (A), 17% (R), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Spec Ops: RES: 65% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 35% (A), 23% (R), 16% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Commando: RES: 65% (S/L), 43% F/C/T, 35% (all); DEF: 29% (A), 17% (R), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Mercenaries (beta):
Soldiers: RES: 71% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (A), 20% (R), 14% (E/N), 11% (M/S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 607; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 16%

Spec Ops: RES: 71% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 36% (A), 26% (R), 19% (E/N), 17% (M), 16% (S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 800; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 16%

Commando: RES: 71% (S/L), 44% (F/C), 43% (T), 36% (E/N), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (A), 20% (R), 14% (E/N), 11% (M/S/L/F/C), 10% (P); HP: 993; DMG: 30%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 16%

(Merc summon and buff animations are still pretty long compared to everyone else)
 

---

 

Ninjas (live):
Genin: RES: 35% (all); DEF: 42% (A), 23% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Jounin: RES: 35% (all); DEF: 60% (A), 27% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Oni: RES: 87% (F), 61% (S/L), 35% (all); DEF: 54% (A), 32% (M/R), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Ninjas (beta):
Genin: RES: 38% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 35% (all); DEF: 43% (A), 25% (R), 24% (M), 10% (all); HP: 614; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 0%

Jounin: RES: 38% (S/L), 37% (F/C), 35% (all); DEF: 61% (A), 29% (R), 28% (M), 10% (all); HP: 807; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 0%

Oni: RES: 89% (F), 64% (S/L), 37% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 55% (A), 34% (R), 33% (M), 10% (all); HP: 1000; DMG: 29%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

(Minor bug worth reporting, the pet you buff with your training abilities likes to stand there repeating the animation/sound on repeat until you move)

 

---

 

Demons (live):
Fire Demonling: RES: 90% (F), 76% (S/L), 62% (T), 57% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 575; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Gargoyle: RES: 87% (T), 81% (S/L), 80% (F), 57% (C), 35% (all); DEF: 25% (A), 10% (all); HP: 769; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

Prince: RES: 70% (T), 67% (S/L), 65% (C), 62% (F), 35% (all); DEF: 30% (C), 25% (A/S/L), 20% (F), 10% (all); HP: 964; DMG: 25%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 0%

 

Demons (beta):
Fire Demonling: RES: 90% (F), 78% (S/L) 63% (C/T), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 25% (A), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 598; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 68%; ACC: 13%

Gargoyle: RES: 87% (T), 86% (F), 83% (S/L), 63% (C), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 25% (A), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 790; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 77%; ACC: 13%

Prince: RES: 71% (C), 70% (S/L/T), 68% (F), 38% (E/N), 35% (P); DEF: 30% (C), 25% (A/S/L), 20% (F), 11% (R/E/N), 10% (all); HP: 983; DMG: 28%; ToHit: 85%; ACC: 13%

Overall feedback: You should be able to see how little the set bonuses actually provide at 40%. 50% wouldn't be much higher. 🥺

It's so funny that yeah you can say they are tougher because of the new inherent set bonuses but really because how the game was for the past 20 years no mastermind was going for set bonuses outside of recharge and uniques. The whole archetype was taught to frankenslot to be the most effective MM. And while 40 is better than 0. It's really a insignificant amount. I would be pleasantly surprised if the devs threw us a bone and made it a flat 50. 40 really is a weird number and really inconvenient to figure out on the fly.

[Kizabum]

As a voice, someone who hasn't maxed out their mastermind yet (and has started playing recently), I give a couple of opinions.

 

First, tie pets bonuses to set bonuses leads to complexity and likely problems, rather than outright boosting and adjusting the base numbers of the pets overall or individually, depending on the pets given. Give them either a baseline upgrade or upgrades that get unlocked based on pet level (or enchantment given, probably easier if the highest enchantment also gives them an additional boost in survivability). Problems emerge if you plan to introduce any new enchantment sets, as you need then take into account because of single AT what set bonuses are.

 

Another aspect is also besides enchanting pets for ability, not just summoning them (replace the dead ones), but the ability to transport them from location A to B, and more so, engage enemies faster. As if you keep pets summoned, and move in an instance, pets usually use flat movement paths rather than use their innate jumping abilities and aggro, and cause problems to the entire team, not to mention that by the time pets arrive to fight, enemies may have been killed by all other AT's.

So my own suggestion is that you can 'store' pets into a separate transport dimension and summon them from it (it has cooldown but not long one), idea is more life luxury solution to be able to summon a pet horde instantly (but you need to have summoned all of them first, normally, and then place them into a pocket dimension). As an alternative, you can dismiss the pet and then summon all of them + enchant them (which occupies MM doing nothing else in the fight, which may get over by the time they get their horde ready).

Another is that when big AoE's are done, pets die fast as well, the mastermind himself as well, cause the bodyguard featured shared HP with the mastermind is not mitigated anyway and MM may suffer the same AoE dmg equal to the number of pets caught in the AoE. Sure, keeping pets alive and position them is MM's responsibility and part of the fantasy, but need just better tools to do so or adjust the numbers so it's not so punishing.

Edited 15 hours ago by Kizabum

[Bionic_Flea]

2 hours ago, ... said:

 

This is the elephant in the room that has not been addressed.

 

Accuracy boosts, more hp, etc are all nice. But at the end of the day what MM really need is a TP-henchmen-to-me power on a meaningfully short cool down. 

 

Unless the dev team can find a way to make henchies keep up with the MM when the MM has a travel power on.

 

I suspect they can't though. Pathing and AI issues seem much more complex than a simple TP power. 

 

Here's an idea and I don't know if it is possible, but . . . could you convert the +recharge set bonuses into +speed for the pets?  At least those set bonuses will contribute something.

[Nathic69]

MMs really need pets to have a speed buff and a teleport to player power or a resummon/desummon power this will solve many issues

 

Please consider giving MMs the same HP values as corruptor, As well as corruptor support set modifiers

 

Please remove the end tax MMs have

 

Please give MM pets 80% AOE defense

🙏

Edited 15 hours ago by Nathic69

[tidge]

I see things VERY differently than this:

23 minutes ago, Nathic69 said:

MMs really need pets to have a speed buff and a teleport to player power or a resummon/desummon power this will solve many issues

 

Please consider giving MMs the same HP values as corruptor, As well as corruptor support set modifiers

 

Please remove the end tax MMs have

 

Please give MM pets 80% AOE defense

🙏

 

The travel/path behavior becomes an issue mostly limited to speed-running towards whatever. After that, there are some common 'stuck on geometry' things that happen with Group Flight, but from my experience if it isn't the MM outpacing the henchmen, it's poor control of the henchmen.

 

MM HP values are fine, with the (Live, and now reverted) Bodyguard. Bodyguard is a tradeoff for more aggressive henchmen stances.

 

The endurance tax is a PITA, but it is not insurmountable. Players that can't figure out how to slot their powers to deal with the extra Endurance cost need to figure out to not run every toggle and/or continually spam Endurance-heavy powers. Welcome to the game!

 

Your henchmen don't already have 80% AoE Defense? /s

[Championess]

I saw a comment earlier on maybe it was from @Maelwys about making the training powers auto whenever you summon your pets.  It would be nice if you took those powers that it got accounted for on a summon, should you need to resummon pets during a fight it can be real hard to train them to get into the fight.  

 

The training powers are pretty cool looking and making them auto on summons would take away from the aesthetic of the sets I know but functionality-wise it would be better to make them auto then you can tweak other powers.  Then those power animations can always be repurposed into new powersets, like a ranged kung-fu blast.  

 

I gotta say MMs have to be the hardest AT to bring in line with all of the various pets interacting with the powers and environment.  This can't be an easy task to keep them decently as is for regular content and giving them more ability in harder content without making them OP.  Glad its being undertaken.

[gameboy1234]

4 hours ago, FupDup said:

It'd be nice if henchmen could get a different buff, like damage, in place of the "wasted" recharge. 

 

I've been asking for this since live.  Even if the Recharge bonus was capped at say 100% to 100% damage bonus, it'd still be something to help out.

 

(100% recharge should halve your recharge timers, meaning at least in theory you should be doing double damage, the same as a 100% damage bonus.  The recharge formula is non-linear but 100% "feels" like it sits at a good break point.  You could slide the cap up or down to tune it pretty easily.  There's also animation times and network delays, but it's still close.  And most players I think have well beyond 100% recharge late in the game, so capping it at 100% "feels" like it should provide something without being totally game breaking.)

 

[gameboy1234]

55 minutes ago, Kizabum said:

So my own suggestion is that you can 'store' pets into a separate transport dimension and summon them from it (it has cooldown but not long one), idea is more life luxury solution to be able to summon a pet horde instantly (but you need to have summoned all of them first, normally, and then place them into a pocket dimension).

 

This basically mirrors my own ideas for late game content.  MMs should have their powers nailed to their backs and cart them around with them personally, treating the Henchmen more as a visual SFX of the powers rather than autonomous critters on the server.  Probably a lot of work for an edge case, but would be really really nice for MMs.  Might require an optional "power" to toggle on during, say, any incarnate content, or anytime level shifted up to 50+1, otherwise the "power" is disabled.

 

[Shin Magmus]

1 hour ago, Vinceq98 said:

It's so funny that yeah you can say they are tougher because of the new inherent set bonuses but really because how the game was for the past 20 years no mastermind was going for set bonuses outside of recharge and uniques. The whole archetype was taught to frankenslot to be the most effective MM. And while 40 is better than 0. It's really a insignificant amount. I would be pleasantly surprised if the devs threw us a bone and made it a flat 50. 40 really is a weird number and really inconvenient to figure out on the fly.

     Emphasis mine, 50% is not that much stronger than 40% but it's 100% easier for many people to quickly calculate in their head.  I know the HC shtick is making things needlessly convoluted, but how about a nice "divide by 2" here.  I promise MMs won't be overpowered.

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, Shin Magmus said:

     Emphasis mine, 50% is not that much stronger than 40% but it's 100% easier for many people to quickly calculate in their head.  I know the HC shtick is making things needlessly convoluted, but how about a nice "divide by 2" here.  I promise MMs won't be overpowered.

I honestly don't think they'd be overpowered if they got 100% of set bonuses. Players already benefit from them in every single other AT, and while yes they're pets, they're basically still the whole primary set of the AT (which still don't benefit from the recharge boost of ios/hasten) with the attacks being terrible on almost every set, so why would an entire primary set basically not benefit from them? Makes no sense. Likewise with globals like the kismet +to hit.

 

Honestly this is one reason why MMs have also lacked compared to other ATs for a very long time. Not to mention most pet power's recharge. There are MANY powers on MM pets that are far too long of a recharge especially since that recharge can't be lowered with enhancements, set bonuses, hasten, etc. Sure they may not get their recharge debuffed but the amount of times that happens versus the insurmountable amount of times that having their powers recharge 1/3 or 1/4 of the time would make a huge difference still.

 

There are powers on MM Pets that have a two minute recharge or greater, what's the point, so the pet uses a big aoe hold/nuke type power on the 1 hp left on the last enemy of a mob, then that power isn't usable on the next mob where it's really needed. How does this possibly make sense when you can't control which mob or when the pets use this power at. These are fundamental issues with MM Pets, not even talking about the MM class as a whole that have still never been addressed.

 

Not to mention the continued issue of pet AI running away from fear patches that still exists and the ever prevalent knockback that ruins the pets positioning for cones and aoes which you mostly can't control, sure some set bonuses can help but not solve the issue without inherent kb and fear protection on pets, at least MM pets. (still need to fix the level issue on non-MM pets which all should be even level for the same reasons) and with the goto command still being buggy because the pet won't stop attacking and never actually goes where you tell it to in battle without spamming the location or forcibly making them not attack first.

 

And then back to the to hit issue. Still no reason to nerf that, especially if they're not getting full set bonuses/kismet bonus from globals as well, or even with that, every other AT can already still do this with their IOs thus MM pets reliably hitting their target like every other AT can't possibly be game breaking. Not to mention the limited slotting issues in the pet itself to try to get its damage maxed, end reduction, enough accuracy, enhancing the special pet powers like holds or slows, not even getting to procs. Let MMs have their day. Their playstyle will still keep many from playing them. With just bringing up the MM class in chat to discuss these changes, I had two people tell me the other day they don't really care because they won't ever play MM's because of their playstyle. Just let MM's have their day.

[tidge]

11 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

And then back to the to hit issue. Still no reason to nerf that, especially if they're not getting full set bonuses/kismet bonus from globals as well, or even with that, every other AT can already still do this with their IOs thus MM pets reliably hitting their target like every other AT can't possibly be game breaking. Not to mention the limited slotting issues in the pet itself to try to get its damage maxed, end reduction, enough accuracy, enhancing the special pet powers like holds or slows, not even getting to procs. 

 

Not a lot of T7+ damaging attacks have base Accuracy < 1.0 (let alone ToHit). Control AoE will  have base Accuracy below 1.0 (again, not ToHit), and it isn't as if those three Brawling Fire Imps have base ToHit values decreased.

[Dispari]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

I'm slightly curious why 100% isn't on the table... 

Frankly I feel like even if it was 100% it still wouldn't be all that amazing, but it should be at least 50%. My only concern with making it 100% is just widening the gap between SO and IO MMs. If we have the choice I'd rather see the floor raised than the ceiling. Hell I'd even be in favor of giving up the set bonuses entirely if we could make MMs better by doing so.

At any rate, as for the argument that MMs might adjust their builds and go for other bonuses, I did already do a hypothetical "max" on that. These numbers assume you dropped every other priority (namely, +recharge) and built entirely for one specific bonus instead. And what that might look like if you did. Here are the numbers the MM can get, along with what that translates to right now at 40%, and what it would be at 50%.
 

Most S/L RES: +36%; 14.4% current, or 18% if half

Most S/L DEF: +16.25%; 6.5% current, or 8.125% if half (it's kinda hard to build for it without melee attacks)
Most ranged DEF: +24.375%; 9.75% current, or 12.1875% if half
Most DMG: +30%; 12% current, or 15% if half

And keep in mind these are all mutually exclusive. You aren't getting all those values on one build.

Basically my conclusion is, even if you wanted to go ham on streamlining for a specific bonus instead of +recharge, it wouldn't be very impressive at all. And honestly, you're likely to get way more out of just having your secondary powers up more often. The best you can get out of +DMG is +12% currently. Even if it was half it'd be +15%. Hell even if it was the full amount that's only 30%. That sounds like a lot, but pet damage is really low, and you'd always be better off just having more uptime on Sleet, Fortitude, Overgrowth, World of Pain, Forge, or what have you. That even has the benefit of helping you and all your teammates too. Essentially, the set bonuses are neat, but there's still no reason to build for anything other than +recharge. At best the other stuff you get is just a neat perk. I wouldn't give up 100% recharge for 10% damage. That's just silly.