page 3 [FOCUSED FEEDBACK] Super Strength Adjustments

[drbuzzard]

25 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Yep.

 

Aside from rage, hurl needs a cast time buff. Over two seconds is ridiculous.

 

Can't argue with this. That animation feels like molasses pouring outside in winter. 

[skoryy]

24 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

 

Sorry, only playtested the Unleashed Might option since it interested me far more. 

 

Same. I just threw together a Inv/SS build and gave it a try on Brainstorm. She doesn't feel that far off from my Fire/Energy, Hand Clap was a huge help, and just having to keep an eye on Dull Pain with the usual Hasten and Ageless made it feel about as seamless as my other alts.  I could refine her build some more, but all in all, I'm sold on making an Unleashed Might alt once this goes live.

[ScarySai]

 

Unleashed might is nice on brute, if nothing else. I'll let someone else do tank because I don't really like tanks.

[nyttyn]

Just from quickly testing it out, like the math is one thing as other people have pointed out, but my SS/Regen takes dramatically more damage on a crash in practice and it feels really bad? 

 

Seems kind of pointless to make this change this late in the game for Super Strength when you're already putting in a Rage alternative. Just leave it be as its current state, and never poke it again so you don't have to worry about people complaining. 

[Major_Decoy]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

 

-def doesn't only negatively impact defense sets, and -res doesn't only negatively impact resist sets. -20% resist + -10 def is far worse of a penalty than the previous one, in fact.

Okay, so I rolled up a level 50 Super Reflexes/Super Strength. (no incarnates, but after the first mission I'm 36% of the way there)

 

I slotted to get perma-hasten and maximize rage crashes. I turn my difficulty to +0/x8 and grabbed a Circle of Thorns mission. I was quickly reminded how fast you can burn through your endurance, but there was only one boss standing when my toggles dropped and I got them back up before I took damage. (I had no inspirations at the start)

 

I could not tell when rage had crashed by incoming damage, I could tell because all of a sudden 75 became the larger floating number in knock-out blow's damage. (Hecatomb proc slotted there. This is not a proc build, but I figured the proc would be more helpful than dam/rech)

 

Winter Lord: I crashed before Rage did. I went through the logs, I did not survive even one rage cycle.

 

Stop the Mask Heist: Carnival of Shadows tip mission at +4/x8. First couple of spawns were fine, but it was technically the rage crash that killed me. That -26 endurance is murder.

 

I can say with certainty I wouldn't have done as well with the live server version because the -20% defense would have dropped me below 40% and I can't handle x8 with my defenses that low.

[skoryy]

19 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

I can say with certainty I wouldn't have done as well with the live server version because the -20% defense would have dropped me below 40% and I can't handle x8 with my defenses that low.

 

I imagine SS double ragers on the live server go through purple insps like M&Ms. With this change, they might have to go through purple and orange insps.

[Erratic1]

32 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

I can say with certainty I wouldn't have done as well with the live server version because the -20% defense would have dropped me below 40% and I can't handle x8 with my defenses that low.

 

And now your resistance is lowered too, making you even less likely to survive.

[Super Atom]

I love might

[Steampunkette]

19 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

And now your resistance is lowered too, making you even less likely to survive.

Hmm... 20% more damage from my resistance being reduced... or 400% more damage because my Defense dropped from 45% to 25%?

 

Tough choice, there!

Edited yesterday at 04:57 AM by Steampunkette

[ScarySai]

54 minutes ago, Major_Decoy said:

Okay, so I rolled up a level 50 Super Reflexes/Super Strength. (no incarnates, but after the first mission I'm 36% of the way there)

 

K.

 

20 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

I love might

 

Same.

 

@Steampunkette The difference between 75% res and 85% res is massive. 65 is barely able to survive anything threatening, and you likely aren't starting at cap. It's not just a flat 20% damage difference.

Edited yesterday at 04:59 AM by ScarySai

[Erratic1]

16 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Hmm... 20% more damage from my resistance being reduced... or 400% more damage because my Defense dropped from 45% to 25%?

 

Tough choice, there!

 

You didn't math right. 1000 damage hit against 90% resistance means you take 100 damage, but against 70% resistance means 300 gets through, and 300 is 200% more than 100. The same principle that applies to defense being reduced applies to resistance being reduced.

[Steampunkette]

21 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

@Steampunkette The difference between 75% res and 85% res is massive. 65 is barely able to survive anything threatening, and you likely aren't starting at cap. It's not just a flat 20% damage difference.

It's not... but y'all're also acting like Resistance penalties are WAY BIGGER and more important than Defense penalties. They're not.

 

If I've got 0% Resistance to S/L and get debuffed by 20% I'm taking 20% more S/L. If I have 20% resistance and get debuffed I'm still taking 20% more damage.

 

Now if I'm on a Resistance Build and I'm taking 10% of incoming damage because I've got 90% resistance I wind up taking 200% more damage (30% of incoming damage) when I get debuffed 20%. Right? Right. You still get your Debuff Resistances to Slows/Recharge/Etc from your Resistance set, you're -just- taking more damage.

 

Meanwhile, if I'm at Softcap and take -20% Defense, I'm getting hit with 400% more damage than I was before (Instead of 5% of incoming attacks landing, 25% of incoming attacks do!) AND I get hit with more Slows/Recharge/ToHit/Etc debuffs since Defense Sets don't have a ton of debuff resistance and just rely on not getting debuffed often through dodging debuffs.

 

Hitting that same Defense character with a 20% Resistance Debuff increases damage taken by 20%.

 

-10% Defense -and- a 20% Resistance is a comparatively minor 220% increase to damage taken.

 

WAY more Equitable to defense-heavy builds. And kinda to split-focused builds like Invuln? Since you can get decently high defense and great resistances out of that set if you build for it.

 

Is it much more dangerous for Resistance characters than it was, before? Absolutely. Because it -barely- effected them, before. But it's also notably less dangerous for defense builds.

 

Doesn't QUITE meet in the middle (18.25 and 12.75 would be closer, for example) but it's definitely much more equitable across build types than it was, before.

Edited yesterday at 05:20 AM by Steampunkette

[Steampunkette]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

You didn't math right. 1000 damage hit against 90% resistance means you take 100 damage, but against 70% resistance means 300 gets through, and 300 is 200% more than 100. The same principle that applies to defense being reduced applies to resistance being reduced.

S'truth. I was typing a big post kinda expressing that, but hit the wrong button on the 2 vs 3.

 

Though with the -10/-20 I think a Resistance-centric build winds up taking a little bit more than the defense character, right? But in the bounds of 20-30% more at that point.

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It's not... but y'all're also acting like Resistance penalties are WAY BIGGER and more important than Defense penalties. They're not.

 

They kinda are in every single situation where you are taking damage. Every single point of resist is giving you more value than the last, much like how staggering the difference between 40 and 45 defense is.

 

The exact math escapes me, but it's not "only" taking 20% more or less damage. It's usually significantly more.

 

Edited yesterday at 05:26 AM by ScarySai

[Erratic1]

9 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It's not... but y'all're also acting like Resistance penalties are WAY BIGGER and more important than Defense penalties. They're not.

 

You have made some sort of poor assumption about what people are saying. It can be a significant penalty--depends on where you start. Going from 90% resistance to 70% resistance means you take 200% more damage. Going from 50% to 30% means you take 40% more damage. The same principle applies to Defense reduction.

 

9 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

If I've got 0% Resistance to S/L and get debuffed by 20% I'm taking 20% more S/L. If I have 20% resistance and get debuffed I'm still taking 20% more damage.

 

As I have already stated TWICE BEFORE, it depends on where you start. And sure, people can build their def characters with 0% resistance if they want to. I don't do that because resistance is a better deal for defense based characters than defense is for resistance based characters given the frequency of defense debuffs versus resistance debuffs. And many defense sets come with some amount of resistance in the mix, so they are wandering around at 0% resistance. SR gets a scaling resistance buff based on how much life has been lost, which many (if not most) augment with the Reactive Defenses: Scaling Resist Damage IO.

 

Quote

WAY more Equitable to defense-heavy builds. And kinda to split-focused builds like Invuln? Since you can get decently high defense and great resistances out of that set if you build for it.

 

As equitable as Resistance sets getting smacked by every status effect which Defense sets shrug off because they don't get hit?

 

Oh, but on this there needs to be equity.

Edited yesterday at 05:29 AM by Erratic1

[Steampunkette]

Just now, ScarySai said:

 

They kinda are in every single situation where you are taking damage. Every single point of resist is giving you more value than the last, much like how staggering the difference between 40 and 45 defense is.

Yes. But when comparing -20% defense to -20% resistance they're not equal. And -10% Defense and -20% resistance is a much closer parity between set types than -20% Defense for everyone.

 

Though even then it's not equal, since the Defense centric build will still have minimal Debuff resistance and be getting hit with more debuffs.

Just now, Erratic1 said:

 

You have made some sort of poor assumption about what people are saying. It can be a significant penalty--depends on where you start. Going from 90% resistance to 70% resistance means you take 200% more damage. Going from 50% to 30% means you take 40% more damage. The same principle applies to Defense reduction.

 

 

As I have already stated TWICE BEFORE, it depends on where you start. And sure, people can build their def characters with 0% resistance if they want to. I don't do that because resistance is a better deal for defense based characters than defense is for resistance based characters given the frequency of defense debuffs versus resistance debuffs. And many defense sets come with some amount of resistance in the mix, so they are wandering around at 0% resistance. SR gets a scaling resistance buff based on how much life has been lost, which many (if not most) augment with the Reactive Defenses: Scaling Resist Damage IO.

READ THE WHOLE POST rather than chopping out a couple lines.

 

I specifically, in that post, go into math on the 90% Resistance and 45% Defense characters for comparison. How in the hell did you ignore all of the lower 2/3rds of the post to just pick that goddamned line out?

[Major_Decoy]

49 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

And now your resistance is lowered too, making you even less likely to survive.

Except the Super Reflexes didn't drop below 45% defense, whereas on the live server build it would go down to 42% vs Melee and 36% vs. Ranged an AoE, which is significantly worse. Granted, I don't think I'd want to use the new Rage against incarnate content either.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

READ THE WHOLE POST rather than chopping out a couple lines.

 

I do read entire posts. I call out what I am responding to by quoting it. 

 

DONT ASSSUME EVERYONE POSTS USING YOUR STYLE!

[Super Atom]

res gotta deal with every other debuff more often already. give us some -res break where you can 🙏 just a crumb less on da crash

Edited yesterday at 05:32 AM by Super Atom

[Erratic1]

Just now, Super Atom said:

res gotta deal with every other debuff more often already. give us some -res break where you can 🙏 just a crumb less

 

One scenario where Resistance sets come up ahead and its, "Soooo Unfaaaaaair!!!" while meanwhile most of the time it's the resistance sets being blinded, confused, sapped*, immobilized, etc. One wonders if resistance sets are so great, why the people complaining aren't playing them.

 

*Have to admit, Electrical Armor does laugh at sappers, so there is that at least. 

[Super Atom]

19 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Electrical Armor does laugh at sappers

 

everyone should laugh at them, they are minions and we don't pay attention to minions. They die upon entry or your entrance is not spicy enough. 🫡

 

To stay on topic, I do think the res/def split is important to be addressed here and now so we can just be done with that entire aspect, maybe even more than hurls animation time being sinful

Edited yesterday at 05:55 AM by Super Atom

[ScarySai]

It's also just the fact that Defense works at max potential no matter what at you choose. Resist depending on your at choice is already SUBSTANTIALLY weaker if its not able to go 80 or higher.

 

There's a reason most scrappers/stalkers are discouraged from taking a resist set, unless fiery aura ends up good again.

[Major_Decoy]

Okay, I tried Double Stacked Rage Electric Armour/Super Strength.

 

This is SOOO much better than Super Reflexes/Super Strength (at least the build I had played). Between Power Sink and Energize I do not notice either Hasten's crash or Rage's endurance crash.

 

The Circle of Thorns scanner mission at +0/x8 goes smoothly.

 

The Carnival of Shadows at +4/x8 is a little tedious because it seems like every spawn has two bosses and even with double stacked rage I am missing a hell of a lot. That being said, I am not having trouble even during the crashes. I mean, negative energy and Psionic aren't exactly weaknesses (77% psionic and 70% negative energy), but they are my weakest resists aside from Toxic and Carnival of Shadows does do a fair amount of each. I'm not taking more damage than Energize and Power transfer can deal. My health bar is fine.

 

I probably wouldn't want to use Rage in something high on toxic damage, like the sewer portion of the Apex task force. 

 

I don't think this change hurts resistance builds very much either.

 

Maybe it's worst for Invulnerability or Willpower?

Edited yesterday at 06:03 AM by Major_Decoy

[Eirei07]

Rage change is outright unnecessary.

 

Unleashed Might is already a more attractive pick for several reasons. It's there for people who don't want extra clickies or deal with crashes, it gives a much better version of Hand Clap (kd instead of kb, decent AOE dmg, and procs well), it plays better with team dmg buffs, plus it already look to be outright better than Rage is on Brutes due to Fury's effect.

 

Even without the added Res debuff, Rage won't be picked. The Def sets can just swap over to Unleashed Might with close to zero downsides.

 

If the issue is really "equitability", then make the -def and -res scales more equitable. Hell, remove the -def altogether and see how much of a difference it makes. If the issue really is double stacking Rage, then change that. Or don't change it and see it go unused anyway.

 

Haven't gotten to test it on my SS/Invul Brute. But I'll likely keep Rage on him anyway because I like it thematically. 

Edited yesterday at 01:09 PM by Eirei07

[ScarySai]

I'm pretty sure the only reason this thread isnt a flaming dumpster fire with pitchforks and torches is because of the fact UM is better than rage in good brute hands.