Addressing the Tanker Brute Connundrum.

[Auroxis]

5 hours ago, ZeeHero said:

Tanker damage is already less than half of brute damage which is ridiculous and unbalanced.

Let's run the numbers on this first, comparing Knockout Blow from Super Strength:

 

Knockout Blow	Tanker	Brute
Base	158	148
Enhancements (+100%)	316	296
Enhancements + 75% Fury (+150% to Brute)	316	518
Enhancements + 75% Fury + 2x Rage (+160%)	569	755
Enhancements + 75% Fury + 2x Rage + Damage Proc (+100)	669	855
Enhancements + 75% Fury + 2x Rage + Damage Proc + Bruising (20% more)	803	855
Damage Cap (400% vs. 775%)	632	1147
Damage Cap + Damage Proc + Bruising	878	1247

 

 

As you can see, under no circumstance does the Tanker deal "less than half of Brute damage".

Edited August 11, 2019 by Auroxis

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, Auroxis said:

Let's run the numbers on this first, comparing Knockout Blow from Super Strength:

 

Knockout Blow	Tanker	Brute
Base	158	148
Enhancements (+100%)	316	296
Enhancements + 75% Fury (+150% to Brute)	316	518
Enhancements + 75% Fury + 2x Rage (+160%)	569	755
Enhancements + 75% Fury + 2x Rage + Damage Proc (+100)	669	855
Enhancements + 75% Fury + 2x Rage + Damage Proc + Bruising (20% more)	803	855
Damage Cap (400% vs. 775%)	632	1147
Damage Cap + Damage Proc + Bruising	878	1247

 

 

As you can see, under no circumstance does the Tanker deal "less than half of Brute damage".

So we're using IOs to prop up Tanker damage (with damage procs) but also using IOs to tear down Brute (it's got too much mitigation) in the same thread.

 

Also, using the most controversial melee buff (Rage) and only measuring it on a single attack (while the person you were quoting didn't actually state it, I'm sure they were talking about the measure of the two AT's DPS, not the DPA of a particular power).

 

I'm just pointing out possible rebuttles as they appear.  I don't think Tankers do half of everyone's damage, but they certainly have less to leverage which is why others can pull ahead easier.

[Leogunner]

8 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Blimey. Alright ok what about this, give tanker an inherent power like vengeance and rush of victory at half power but also increases in effect based on team size like the inherent of defenders. So when solo it boosts them off kills and gives more dmg, and when on teams it grants less dmg but also has a team to buff up.

 

I imagine at least in theory something like this could be done with the games limits. It should make solo play of a tanker abit more fun, and when on teams allow them to offer something unique beyond just being a meat shield and also connects to the idea of tankers as inherent leaders by being akin to the ultimate powers of the leadership pool.

I want to say such an addition would feel like Brute Fury but instead of hitting, it's defeating mobs.  That isn't to say it'd be off the table to me, it's just so many seem adamant about targeting certain suggestions and representing them as "Brute-like" if it does anything to increase damage.  I dunno, considering it's also buffing the team, maybe being a "Team Fury" isn't so bad.

 

There'd still be the means of activation though.  Victory Rush you have to target to use so what would be use to activate the effect?

[Auroxis]

26 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

So we're using IOs to prop up Tanker damage (with damage procs) but also using IOs to tear down Brute (it's got too much mitigation) in the same thread.

 

Also, using the most controversial melee buff (Rage) and only measuring it on a single attack (while the person you were quoting didn't actually state it, I'm sure they were talking about the measure of the two AT's DPS, not the DPA of a particular power).

 

I'm just pointing out possible rebuttles as they appear.  I don't think Tankers do half of everyone's damage, but they certainly have less to leverage which is why others can pull ahead easier.

If you find one of the comparisons irrelevant (like the ones with rage or procs) feel free to disregard it, I personally find all of them relevant to this discussion. As for choosing KoB over an attack chain, the damage scale is fairly consistent across all attacks. And while including Jab every 10 seconds can hurt your overall DPS, keep in mind the -Res affects your whole team and can be kept up during a rage crash.

 

I think my data shows that Tankers can deal anywhere between almost half as much damage (in a damage cap scenario, without bruising or procs) to contributing about the same damage to a team (with bruising, rage and procs). Does that make them balanced? No, I still believe Tankers have issues that need addressing, but a damage buff is far from my preferred approach as I've said numerous times before.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Auroxis

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

If you find one of the comparisons irrelevant (like the ones with rage or procs) feel free to disregard it, I personally find all of them relevant to this discussion. 

I was attempting to bring to light that Super Strength and by extension Rage, is an outlier example and doesn't reflect the other melee sets.  It'd be like measuring Scrapper using Titan Weapons as the standard when in fact, Titan Weapons is an exception of DPA.

 

And in general, when discussing base balance, you don't include IOs because they vary the playing field even more (it basically breaks the game in more circumstances than it doesn't).  I'm just trying to present likely rebuttals that will usually extend an argument several more posts/pages as participants have to clarify, qualify, reclarify and reconstruct talking points.  If you'd rather not engage those points, it might be something you'll see down the line.

[Auroxis]

5 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I was attempting to bring to light that Super Strength and by extension Rage, is an outlier example and doesn't reflect the other melee sets.  It'd be like measuring Scrapper using Titan Weapons as the standard when in fact, Titan Weapons is an exception of DPA.

 

And in general, when discussing base balance, you don't include IOs because they vary the playing field even more (it basically breaks the game in more circumstances than it doesn't).  I'm just trying to present likely rebuttals that will usually extend an argument several more posts/pages as participants have to clarify, qualify, reclarify and reconstruct talking points.  If you'd rather not engage those points, it might be something you'll see down the line.

It's important to bring all outliers to light, which is why my table contains both extremes. The data is there, it's up to you to do whatever you want with it.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

If you find one of the comparisons irrelevant (like the ones with rage or procs) feel free to disregard it, I personally find all of them relevant to this discussion. As for choosing KoB over an attack chain, the damage scale is fairly consistent across all attacks. And while including Jab every 10 seconds can hurt your overall DPS, keep in mind the -Res affects your whole team and can be kept up during a rage crash.

 

I think my data shows that Tankers can deal anywhere between almost half as much damage (in a damage cap scenario, without bruising or procs) to contributing about the same damage to a team (with bruising, rage and procs). Does that make them balanced? No, I still believe Tankers have issues that need addressing, but a damage buff is far from my preferred approach as I've said numerous times before.

It's always been there, back on live pre EM nerf my invul/em tank could outdamage most Scrappers because I took advantage of IOs and they didn't. That's why the EM nerf particularly hurt tanks - it slowed them down too much on that powerset.

 

Beyond that you still have Fire/Fire/Fire that when you have the build up proc, build up, then firey embrace - then pop combustion (which brutes don't have btw) fire sword circle, fireball, forgot about burn, then target the remaining boss with greater fire sword and repeat the cycle - there is no mob left. Fire tanks have better damage and better overall survivability That's easier to attain than brutes IMO.

 

I hit a death mage in PI yesterday with my invul/ss for 917 pts of damage.  There again IMO invul is a set that performs better and easier to make stronger on tanks than Brutes.

 

Tanker damage is there, if you can figure out how to get it.

 

Kinda like brute survivability is there if you figure out how to get it.

 

Both take work and planning.  Both end up at the same point eventually.  Or not you can choose and play anyway you wish - that's flexibility and balanced as far as I'm concerned.

 

The suggestions wanting to corner the market for tanks as the only agro control would be irritating at best for people like me that play their brutes like tanks (that makes it tanking and an actual tank IMO) and serve no long term purpose because a team of incarnate controllers and defenders or blasters would still outdamage and control the mob better than any tank can.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Infinitum
Added info

[Myrmidon]

On 8/11/2019 at 4:11 PM, Infinitum said:

Tanker damage is there, if you can figure out how to get it.

 

Kinda like brute survivability is there if you figure out how to get it.

 

This right here.

[marcussmythe]

Whats the best Tank Pylon time?

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

Whats the best Tank Pylon time?

A better comparison with actual run of the mill gameplay would be to test in one of the S/L or fire AE farms.

 

Pylons can give you accurate DPS readings but things in game are rarely that static.

[Leogunner]

17 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

A better comparison with actual run of the mill gameplay would be to test in one of the S/L or fire AE farms.

 

Pylons can give you accurate DPS readings but things in game are rarely that static.

One is a yardstick for overall DPS (whether ST or AoE) and the other is more a measurement of efficiency.

 

They're two different types of metrics so it's not logical to deflect one with the other. 

[Infinitum]

33 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

One is a yardstick for overall DPS (whether ST or AoE) and the other is more a measurement of efficiency.

 

They're two different types of metrics so it's not logical to deflect one with the other. 

Not deflecting, but in reality targets move, multiple targets move a lot until you put them down.  I did the pylon tests back on live and they give you good numbers but don't really give you any real world performance data.  Like how fast a given AT can clear a mob.  On paper it should be cut and dry but in reality things may not always fall that way.

 

Once you one shot a few minions or aoe most of the mob to death they don't attack back.  Like it happens in game. 

 

We didn't have AE back when we first did pylon tests but we also used the battle maiden map.

[Leogunner]

26 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Not deflecting, but in reality targets move, multiple targets move a lot until you put them down.  I did the pylon tests back on live and they give you good numbers but don't really give you any real world performance data.  Like how fast a given AT can clear a mob.  On paper it should be cut and dry but in reality things may not always fall that way.

 

Once you one shot a few minions or aoe most of the mob to death they don't attack back.  Like it happens in game. 

 

We didn't have AE back when we first did pylon tests but we also used the battle maiden map.

The reason I say it's deflecting is because the person you quoted didn't ask for a realistic reflection on farm maps or PUG type scenarios, they asked for an specific measure of maximum DPS.  Think of it like someone asking you how long it takes to get somewhere then someone brings up traffic congestion, stop signs, tolls and what not.  They're both useful information but some can gauge those aspects or compensate mentally for certain variables just fine or even get a ballpark feel on how to cut down on the time.

 

Of course, there could be certain posters that aren't good at that and might jump to conclusions but that's where you'd qualify the numbers with other information rather than perform mental gymnastics and bat around qualifiers without relaying any actual data.

[Infinitum]

27 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

The reason I say it's deflecting is because the person you quoted didn't ask for a realistic reflection on farm maps or PUG type scenarios, they asked for an specific measure of maximum DPS.  Think of it like someone asking you how long it takes to get somewhere then someone brings up traffic congestion, stop signs, tolls and what not.  They're both useful information but some can gauge those aspects or compensate mentally for certain variables just fine or even get a ballpark feel on how to cut down on the time.

 

Of course, there could be certain posters that aren't good at that and might jump to conclusions but that's where you'd qualify the numbers with other information rather than perform mental gymnastics and bat around qualifiers without relaying any actual data.

Pylon data is useless information because there isnt swarms of Rikti pylons attacking you everywhere.

 

It was useless then and its useless now.  It makes things that arent overpowered seem more overpowered than they are.

 

For instance, my invul/ss tank has higher dps than my fire tank, but the fire tank clears mobs was way faster.

 

My Em/elec brute takes out bosses way faster than anything else I have but its dreadfully slow at clearing mobs.

 

Raw dps numbers as a whole are useless unless you have a real world scenario to compare them with.

 

I realize what they were asking for, but there is a better way to get data thats more useful out there.

 

Look at it this way, if you saw someone sending an sos with Morse code over a telegraph, wouldn't they appreciate someone introducing a smart phone to them so the emergency can get called in faster.

 

Thats what I was attempting, not deflecting.

[Leogunner]

35 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Pylon data is useless information because there isnt swarms of Rikti pylons attacking you everywhere.

 

It was useless then and its useless now.  It makes things that arent overpowered seem more overpowered than they are.

 

For instance, my invul/ss tank has higher dps than my fire tank, but the fire tank clears mobs was way faster.

 

My Em/elec brute takes out bosses way faster than anything else I have but its dreadfully slow at clearing mobs.

 

Raw dps numbers as a whole are useless unless you have a real world scenario to compare them with.

 

I realize what they were asking for, but there is a better way to get data thats more useful out there.

 

Look at it this way, if you saw someone sending an sos with Morse code over a telegraph, wouldn't they appreciate someone introducing a smart phone to them so the emergency can get called in faster.

 

Thats what I was attempting, not deflecting.

What you posted there seems in line considering any novice melee knows what an AoE is and how AoE vs ST is supposed to be balanced. It's almost like you pay something to get strong ST damage by having less AoE... 

 

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record but the person you quoted didn't ask for minion clear speed... 

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

What you posted there seems in line considering any novice melee knows what an AoE is and how AoE vs ST is supposed to be balanced. It's almost like you pay something to get strong ST damage by having less AoE... 

 

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a broken record but the person you quoted didn't ask for minion clear speed... 

Yeah I'm not offended and I get it, I understand what they are asking for, but there is more useful data out there, and if this is about changing ATs which this thread is about that, pylon data tests are not relatable to actual gameplay. 

 

I say that because pylon data tests are one of the things that got EM nerfed. So I particularly hate them because that alone relegated EM to a boss/av killer and parlor trick one shot machine for minion and lieutenants.

[marcussmythe]

13 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah I'm not offended and I get it, I understand what they are asking for, but there is more useful data out there, and if this is about changing ATs which this thread is about that, pylon data tests are not relatable to actual gameplay. 

 

I say that because pylon data tests are one of the things that got EM nerfed. So I particularly hate them because that alone relegated EM to a boss/av killer and parlor trick one shot machine for minion and lieutenants.

In all fairness, Id say they -removed- EM as a Boss Killer Machine - its not that anymore.

Pylon's are a data point, not the whole thing, and the EM Nerf was emblematic of that era of COH.. Nerf anything into the ground (except Rad, Fire, and Illusion based things, because... IDK why?  But Melee Must Die was definitely the order of the day).  Youll note that the Developers Who Were Bad At Their Jobs spent the years after flattening EM into the ground inventing ATs that were in large part Tank Resistances on Scrapper Damage (and thus this thread), Scrappers Only Better (Stalkers), and happily churning out powersets that make even old, pre-nerf Energy Melee look trivial in its single DPS, while also rocking the AOE, and also not killing yourself.

 

Developers were, when it comes to anything like balance of... questionable competence and vision through the entire live run of CoH, and CoH is awesome in the ways it is awesome not because they were good, but because they were -so bad- they screwed up and left fun in their game.  Hopefully the New Crew will do better - and seeing whats gone on with snipes, blaster buffs more generally, etc., I am hopeful, but as long as Tanks, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers are all stuck in basically the same design space, some ATs are just going to be flat -better- than others in most applications.

[Infinitum]

41 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

In all fairness, Id say they -removed- EM as a Boss Killer Machine - its not that anymore.

Pylon's are a data point, not the whole thing, and the EM Nerf was emblematic of that era of COH.. Nerf anything into the ground (except Rad, Fire, and Illusion based things, because... IDK why?  But Melee Must Die was definitely the order of the day).  Youll note that the Developers Who Were Bad At Their Jobs spent the years after flattening EM into the ground inventing ATs that were in large part Tank Resistances on Scrapper Damage (and thus this thread), Scrappers Only Better (Stalkers), and happily churning out powersets that make even old, pre-nerf Energy Melee look trivial in its single DPS, while also rocking the AOE, and also not killing yourself.

All of that is pretty darn accurate.

 

Well except em not being a boss killer.  Mine is very good at that, and it should be because thats the only reason I rolled it out-its tricky but doable, but also with the hope they may buff the set at some point.

[Auroxis]

23 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

Whats the best Tank Pylon time?

3:09 minutes, but I could probably get it down to 3 minutes if I practiced TW. And even lower than that if I use the Hybrid clicky.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Auroxis

[ZeeHero]

Honestly increasing damage on tankers has to happen. they should not be doing half or less the damage of brutes given how close brutes come to doing the exact same job just as well in endgame. and damage is IMPORTANT for all roles and ATs as it is the only way enemies can be defeated in the end. a tanker should be doing at least 60% brute damage tbh. if not 70% if nothing changes about brutes.

[DSorrow]

I still think Tankers should just get an across the board debuff resistance in their inherent to make any stats built on them (through IOs, insps, buffs, whatever) worth more as they'd be more difficult to take away. This would be especially noticeable against end-game enemies that are typically very debuff heavy.

[Steampunkette]

How about just increasing their damage buff cap to 500%?

 

That way Brutes still get to be awesome at dealing damage, Tankers are great at survival, but at high end with a couple Fulcrum Shifts the Tanker kind of catches up a bit... But requires outside buffing 'cause they don't have a Fury Mechanic to start out on?

[ZeeHero]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

How about just increasing their damage buff cap to 500%?

 

That way Brutes still get to be awesome at dealing damage, Tankers are great at survival, but at high end with a couple Fulcrum Shifts the Tanker kind of catches up a bit... But requires outside buffing 'cause they don't have a Fury Mechanic to start out on?

Becuase that doesn't help the solo tanker and soloing is also an important part of the game. That PLUS a solo buff like defenders get would be great though.

[Auroxis]

@ZeeHero Why do you keep pushing the "Tankers deal less than half of brute damage" argument when I've given you numbers AND pylon times that prove otherwise?

[ZeeHero]

1 minute ago, Auroxis said:

@ZeeHero Why do you keep pushing the "Tankers deal less than half of brute damage" argument when I've given you numbers AND pylon times that prove otherwise?

Not saying less than half now but the difference is still too much given how brutes basically steal tankers job. anything they DONT do as well is outweighed by the damage.