Addressing the Tanker Brute Connundrum.

[Steampunkette]

4 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Becuase that doesn't help the solo tanker and soloing is also an important part of the game. That PLUS a solo buff like defenders get would be great though.

Solo Tankers can already get through the game without much problem, similarly to Brutes but with less chance of dying.

 

It's only really in end-game content that a Brute has all the Mitigation the Tanker does -AND- a huge damage increase over the Tanker.

[ZeeHero]

Just now, Steampunkette said:

Solo Tankers can already get through the game without much problem, similarly to Brutes but with less chance of dying.

 

It's only really in end-game content that a Brute has all the Mitigation the Tanker does -AND- a huge damage increase over the Tanker.

I mean its not exactly enjoyable to take an age to finish a single boss or EB.. meanwhile a brute when full built survives nearly as easily and takes it out fast. its not rocket science.

[Auroxis]

9 minutes ago, ZeeHero said:

Not saying less than half now but the difference is still too much given how brutes basically steal tankers job. anything they DONT do as well is outweighed by the damage.

The difference is far less than you make it out to be. When a tanker is posting scrapper-level pylon times, you can't just say "buffing tanker damage must happen".

 

There are lots of ways to make tankers more desirable, buffing their damage when they're already decent enough on that front isn't the way to go IMO.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Auroxis

[ZeeHero]

3 minutes ago, Auroxis said:

The difference is far less than you make it out to be. When a tanker is posting scrapper-level pylon times, you can't just say "buffing tanker damage must happen".

 

There are lots of ways to make tankers more desirable, buffing their damage when they're already decent enough on that front isn't the way to go IMO.

Uhh.. my tanker would take like 20 minutes for a single pylon. Using the most OP combos isnt a good assessment of tanker performance sorry.

[Zepp]

I could see raising the damage cap for Tankers, but there does not seem to be much of an actual difference in real numbers. There may be some outliers, but changes ought to be based on data rather than anecdotes.

[Auroxis]

Just now, ZeeHero said:

Uhh.. my tanker would take like 20 minutes for a single pylon. Using the most OP combos isnt a good assessment of tanker performance sorry.

The most OP combos are often the ones mentioned in the pylon killing thread, both for tankers and other classes. And it's not like TW is that far ahead of other primaries, I assure you that with smart use of procs and attack chains you could get close to the same times on other combos.

 

And your tanker takes 20 minutes for a single pylon? I'd say that has more to do with the build than the class.

[Leogunner]

On 8/13/2019 at 3:05 PM, Auroxis said:

3:09 minutes, but I could probably get it down to 3 minutes if I practiced TW. And even lower than that if I use the Hybrid clicky.

That's pretty good. Although I stopped keeping track of this stuff when incarnates started to be the new standard so not sure how it stacks with the new meta. 

 

I think with changes to procs, that might be a way to increase ATs with less damage potential since the procs are not affected by DMG mods or buffs. 

[dangeraaron10]

I don't really have much of a dog in this fight, but I was wondering if there was anything in the game that functions as a "Knocktoward"?  As opposed to a Knockback.  If not, I wonder if Tankers could be given a PBAoE "Knocktoward" to act as sort of a AoE Deathgrip using WoW terms.  It seems like knockbacks and enemy placement is a huge point of contention for most all levels of team play and if Tankers got an ability that allowed it to clump scattered enemies in on itself it could have some additional utility.

 

If Tankers getting more aggro/defense amounts to nothing since you can't only have good enough defense/aggro control that Brute can achieve, and increasing Tanker damage is a non starter as it will either still fall behind Brute or exceed Brute and make it irrelevant (which is a non-starter since we'd be back to square one in addition to a Tanker/Brute powercreep), I think Tankers could benefit from additional group utility.  The Hero ATs seem to focus more on the group and less on the self like Villain ATs.

 

Maybe give a PBAoE Knocktoward to Tanks in each primary or secondary powerset or adjust existing AoE to have that effect.  This could be a great qualify of life for Controllers/Dominators and just about anyone that focuses on AoE damage.  Thus makes them more desirable in groups.  If both Tankers and Brutes can fill the defense/aggro quota (with Tankers just doing it earlier), what would differentiate Tankers from Brutes is that Brutes would have more damage and Tankers would be QoL for the group that would increase everyone's DPS by a fair margin.  

[dangeraaron10]

What I mean by "Knocktoward" is that enemies caught in this AoE will fling towards the user as opposed to away from it, basically reversing the direction of Knockbacks.  The strength of this Knocktoward would be tied to distance.  Farther enemies will be knocked toward further and enemies closer will be knocked toward less, with melee-range enemies being knocked down instead.  

 

Though I imagine this would be extremely useful for any Melee AT and I'd certainly be envious of it if I wasn't a Tanker.

[Kimuji]

That's a funny idea, I don't know if the distance thing is doable but it's definitely an interesting concept. Not all sets have a PBAoE though (Street Justice for instance).
In the same spirit and a bit less powerful (because that knocktoward is a very powerful ability IMO) some suggested here that Taunt could debuff the foe's attacking range even more to force them to go into melee.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Kimuji

[Steampunkette]

37 minutes ago, dangeraaron10 said:

What I mean by "Knocktoward" is that enemies caught in this AoE will fling towards the user as opposed to away from it, basically reversing the direction of Knockbacks.  The strength of this Knocktoward would be tied to distance.  Farther enemies will be knocked toward further and enemies closer will be knocked toward less, with melee-range enemies being knocked down instead.  

 

Though I imagine this would be extremely useful for any Melee AT and I'd certainly be envious of it if I wasn't a Tanker.

Cannot be done.

 

Knock is a Vectored Affect. Knockback is vectored relative to the position of your character when the attack -hits- rather than when it's fired. But it only goes one way: Away.

 

Knockup is a vectored function that pushes a character straight up and is a different mechanical effect within the engine's system.

 

But knock-to would require either a new function (One that would take a -ton- of effort to create) or a sort of pseudo-pet kludge where an invisible NPC spawns in behind you and knocks you "Forward".

 

But such directional spawning locations as "Behind" are tied to the NPC in question, not the PC. So if it specified "Behind" and the enemy was currently running away, it would just throw them further on their quest of getting away.

[dangeraaron10]

I see.  I got nothing, then.

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

But knock-to would require either a new function (One that would take a -ton- of effort to create) or a sort of pseudo-pet kludge where an invisible NPC spawns in behind you and knocks you "Forward".

It honestly shouldn't be that difficult. A copy-paste of the knockback function with the position of the caster and target swapped in whatever formula is used should result in a knock-towards effect. There would, however, be no way to ensure the target doesn't just fly over your head and land behind you, potentially farther away than they started.

[Haijinx]

12 hours ago, Auroxis said:

The most OP combos are often the ones mentioned in the pylon killing thread, both for tankers and other classes. And it's not like TW is that far ahead of other primaries, I assure you that with smart use of procs and attack chains you could get close to the same times on other combos.

 

And your tanker takes 20 minutes for a single pylon? I'd say that has more to do with the build than the class.

It might be.  No other tanker times have been posted that I saw?

 

Also it looks like TW does maybe 100dps more than the other good ST scrapper primaries.

[Steampunkette]

8 hours ago, Vanden said:

It honestly shouldn't be that difficult. A copy-paste of the knockback function with the position of the caster and target swapped in whatever formula is used should result in a knock-towards effect. There would, however, be no way to ensure the target doesn't just fly over your head and land behind you, potentially farther away than they started.

Knock Toward is something that came up repeatedly on the CoH Forums.

 

I'm Paraphrasing Castle's Response to the issue. And if it was a "Ton of effort" for the Live Team it's difficult.

 

You're also right about the possibility of knock over or knock short. The Magnitude of any knock would be set beforehand, and result in some hilarious effects.

 

 

[Shadowsleuth]

I wish there was a tanker power that worked like a reverse Lightning Rod/Shield Charge, instead of teleporting into the midst of the group, the group teleports to the tank with a very heavy taunt on them when they arrive, a power similar to gravity controls Wormhole.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Shadowsleuth

[oedipus_tex]

I didn't read a good bit of the thread, so apologies if I am resurrecting a discussion that was already had.

 

Even without Brutes in the equation Tankers have always deserved a look IMO because they are the one AT that kills a team flat when too many of them show up on one team. Other ATs that are low damage tend to accelerate when combined on a single team due to force multiplication.

 

I always thought the solution was to push Tanker slightly in the direction of Controller or Defender. In other words, don't increase their individual damage, but allow to serve as force multipliers that boost teams or leagues. There are a number of ways to do this. You wouldn't have to give them too much force multiplication to make it work. Probably the multiplication should add damage though, because of the theoretical situation of an 8-Tanker team.

 

 

[Cutter]

I know it's been said before in many places, but I'd still argue for some kind of bodyguard and/or team-buffing effect. Something like this already exists in Shield Defense (Grant Cover) and Radiation Armor (Ground Zero), which would push me to suggest that it be added to tanker primaries (as an extra effect to existing powers whenever possible). For example, add a team +Rec buff to Electric Armor's Power Sink. Other sets (e.g. Fire) could provide a team damage buff. Plenty of ways to go about it to keep the effects in-theme and desirable in multiples.

[oedipus_tex]

5 hours ago, Cutter said:

I know it's been said before in many places, but I'd still argue for some kind of bodyguard and/or team-buffing effect. Something like this already exists in Shield Defense (Grant Cover) and Radiation Armor (Ground Zero), which would push me to suggest that it be added to tanker primaries (as an extra effect to existing powers whenever possible). For example, add a team +Rec buff to Electric Armor's Power Sink. Other sets (e.g. Fire) could provide a team damage buff. Plenty of ways to go about it to keep the effects in-theme and desirable in multiples.

 

That is basically exactly what I picture.

 

Another way to do it would be to make the Tanker versions of Build Up team-wide (perhaps not at full strength). I feel like Tankers already excel on the armor side of the game and its really the secondary that ought to factor more strongly into team composition, particularly the damage portion. Sets without Build Up would need some kind of mechanic.

[Zenex]

I like to try and think of the simplest solutions to a problem, what if we just increase the Tankers aggro cap to something like 20 and have a general increase in aggro from gauntlet. 

 

Then even if you had a brute who was at tanker level of toughness the tanker would have a pretty big advantage over the brute in the means of keeping aggro off the squishes and having the ability to bring in and hold larger groups of enemies at once.

 

This isn't as simple but for the tank heavy teams we add the bruising mechanic to to all tanker damage powers but at a 5 - 10 % chance like scrapper crits have. This would hopefully mitigate how having multiple tankers can kill a teams dps.  

[Haijinx]

Evidently the 17 is a hard cap.  People have mentioned it before.  

 

Not sure gauntlet is set in stone at 5 enemies though.  Or that  its aoe range couldn't be increased.  Or that its inherent accuracy couldn't be buffed.

[Haijinx]

Also both the brute and tank taunt are the same.  Why?  Maybe the tank one could affect 10 enemies instead, with a bigger AOE

 

Or taunt auras for tanks could be 10 feet, instead if 8

[Sniktch]

The 17 is not a hard cap, but it IS a global cap - it changes for ALL ATs or none.

[Tad Cooper]

I keep coming back to the flippant "just get rid of tankers, they're not needed." post from early in the thread that I haven't had enough coffee this morning to find, and it reminded me of when I saw how many Corruptor support numbers are the same as Defender support numbers. Meaning for some sets there's basically no reason to roll Def. Instead of getting rid of them, why not combine them? Give Tankers Fury, add Gauntlet to Brute powers, make all their numbers the same on attack and defense. Same with Corruptors and Defenders. Give Defenders Corruptor damage and Scourge, give Corruptors Defender support/secondary effect numbers and Vigilance. Make the difference whether you want attack or defense/support powers first, and flavor text.

 

Or we could change Fury to use the same "in combat" mechanic as the new snipes. While you're in combat make it go up fast over time instead of by incoming attacks, hitting the cap after 3 or 4 minutes maybe (obviously would require testing). When you're out of combat have it drop even faster. Remove Brute inherent taunt (but leave the tree powers) and have their taunt auras increase the amount Fury increases per tick for each enemy instead of taunting, or maybe with less taunt than Tanks though I'm not sure how you'd make that happen the way the AI is set up. Maybe make Tank auras taunt twice for every tick over a bigger area? Anyway, this way Brutes become crappier tanks but don't need to get attacked to be effective. They're mad that anyone would DARE stand against them. Though it suddenly occurs to me that the new tactic will be to leave one enemy alive to pointlessly swing at you until you're at the Fury cap, then go and slaughter everything, changing very little other than the time investment.

 

Oh well. These are my dumb ideas. Maybe they'll inspire someone else's good ones.

[Steampunkette]

3 hours ago, Zenex said:

I like to try and think of the simplest solutions to a problem, what if we just increase the Tankers aggro cap to something like 20 and have a general increase in aggro from gauntlet. 

 

Then even if you had a brute who was at tanker level of toughness the tanker would have a pretty big advantage over the brute in the means of keeping aggro off the squishes and having the ability to bring in and hold larger groups of enemies at once.

 

This isn't as simple but for the tank heavy teams we add the bruising mechanic to to all tanker damage powers but at a 5 - 10 % chance like scrapper crits have. This would hopefully mitigate how having multiple tankers can kill a teams dps.  

 

Aggro is handled on the NPC AI side. The Live Deves put in the hard cap of aggro through NPCs throwing a global check pulse to find out how many people are currently attacking each of the Player Characters on their hit list.

 

If Target A has 17 players it goes to Target B and if B has 17 players it goes to Target C and so on.

 

There is no NPC AI Tag or Logic algorithm for "Is that a tanker in my Target A slot?" Trying to build such a check would be a MASSIVE clusterfrell and could result in lots of whacky AI behavior that even the Live Team didn't want to mess with.