Elec/Shield Archtype?

[Taemeluch]

I have a couple of questions involving numbers and which archtype to choose for my Elec/shield. If anyone can be kind to help answer these I would be grateful.

 

1. What is the major difference between the 3 archetypes that can use elec/shield? Is the brute more tanky and the scrapper and stalker more damage?

 

2. Does the rage meter really add that much damage to negate the crit from the other 2?

 

3. If I was to choose between scrapper or stalker, would the power being replaced by placate, hide, and assassins strike be worth losing? ( I ask this because the wiki doesnt say what powers you lose)

 

4. Would being a elec/shield stalker kinda be oxymoronic for the fact that elec is such an AoE type primary?

 

5. What mastery would you take for either of the 3 choices?

 

Thank you in advance for the help.

[Coyote]

I think that Stalkers are generally starved for AoE damage, and Electric is by far their best AoE set.

In addition, Electric is usually starved for single-target damage, and Stalkers are by far the best single-target damage using Electric.

 

For those two reasons, I would always run Electric Melee as a Stalker.

[MunkiLord]

Also Lightning Rod and Shield Charge don't break hide apparently, so you can nuke with those and then still auto crit with another high damage attack. Knowing what I know now, I wish I could change my Elec/SD Scrapper to a a Stalker.

[Taemeluch]

Also Lightning Rod and Shield Charge don't break hide apparently, so you can nuke with those and then still auto crit with another high damage attack. Knowing what I know now, I wish I could change my Elec/SD Scrapper to a a Stalker.

 

Wait, seriously? I was thinking the whole time that it broke hide. When did this become a thing?

 

1: Brutes have a higher resist cap, allowing you to be more durable than a scrapper or stalker if you build your resists to over 75%, which can be achieved through IO sets. This is offset by the lower base damage numbers.

 

2: Shield Defense's Against All Odds power is a powerful damage buff that works off of base damage.  This is where the difference really shows up, not in criticals.  Brutes will get the least benefit from AAO compared to Scrappers and then Stalkers.

 

3: Placate (The replacement power for Confront on a scrapper) is essentially a defensive tool now, and completely skippable.  You get Assassin Strike in place of Lightning Clap which is a huge upgrade in single target damage vs. losing a generally skippable power in LC.  For Hide you lose Phalanx Fighting which does make a difference but will not prevent you from still reaching all of your necessary defensive softcaps.

 

4: No?  It makes you the best AoE stalker with a better single target rotation than an Elec/Shield scrapper.

 

5: Whichever mastery has the powers you need to do what you want (More AoE, more single target, snipes, better endurance management, defense, whatever).  There isn't a correct answer for this.  I usually go for endurance management (Energy) or Moonbeam from Soul but really whatever fixes your build's issues is best.

 

I think Stalker is the clear winner if you're picking solely on versatility, and Scrapper if you want slightly better AoE damage.  Brutes and Tanks are fine with these sets too, since they are generally just powerful powersets, but Stalkers and Scrappers make the most of them.

 

OK, I get it now. They replace the scrapper taunt and build up with placate and AS. With AAO, does it break hide? If not, that would be a good replacement IMO for the build up power.

[MunkiLord]

Also Lightning Rod and Shield Charge don't break hide apparently, so you can nuke with those and then still auto crit with another high damage attack. Knowing what I know now, I wish I could change my Elec/SD Scrapper to a a Stalker.

 

Wait, seriously? I was thinking the whole time that it broke hide. When did this become a thing?

 

OK, I get it now. They replace the scrapper taunt and build up with placate and AS. With AAO, does it break hide? If not, that would be a good replacement IMO for the build up power.

 

Not sure, I just found out about it myself a week or so ago. From what I understand it happens because both attacks summon a pseudo-pet.

[Murcielago]

Also Lightning Rod and Shield Charge don't break hide apparently, so you can nuke with those and then still auto crit with another high damage attack. Knowing what I know now, I wish I could change my Elec/SD Scrapper to a a Stalker.

That is absurd

[Taemeluch]

Also Lightning Rod and Shield Charge don't break hide apparently, so you can nuke with those and then still auto crit with another high damage attack. Knowing what I know now, I wish I could change my Elec/SD Scrapper to a a Stalker.

That is absurd

 

I know. I can hear the conversation between bad guys now.

 

Lieutenant: Boss, minions are dying from random lightning strikes. We don't know where it's coming from.

 

Boss: Smoking the drugs again uh steve?

 

Lieutenant: Boss, its not a joke. They are dying....

 

*Lightning hit group and kills all but the boss.

 

Boss: what the.....

 

Stalker shows itself with a haduken uppercut assassins strike and smiles.

[Sovera]

From playing it it's not as broken as that. The reason is that mobs are immediately aware of you even if Hide is not broken, so they immediately zoom in on you and start hitting. The only real bonus is the auto crit you can wrangle after Lightning Rod + Shield Charge which in the grand scheme of things I wouldn't exactly call OP, albeit yes, a bug.

[marcussmythe]

Also Lightning Rod and Shield Charge don't break hide apparently, so you can nuke with those and then still auto crit with another high damage attack. Knowing what I know now, I wish I could change my Elec/SD Scrapper to a a Stalker.

 

This is actually a huge mistake that I see Elec/Shield stalkers making all the time.  It's actually not good to open with a teleport attack because of this issue if you are using shield defense.  Against All Odds won't kick in until your hide is suppressed, which means you're doing a LOT less damage.  You should open with a crit first, then use your teleport attacks so that your AAO is boosting them. Using your teleports on an alphastrike while hidden will essentially waste their potential.

 

This.  Stealth into pack.  Unload large crit on Boss.  Telefrag twice.  Begin single target rotation on whatever remains standing, throwing in AOE as necessary to pick off trailers.

[Taemeluch]

This.  Stealth into pack.  Unload large crit on Boss.  Telefrag twice.  Begin single target rotation on whatever remains standing, throwing in AOE as necessary to pick off trailers.

 

Ok. So do you AaO before the Assassin strike or after?

[Murcielago]

This.  Stealth into pack.  Unload large crit on Boss.  Telefrag twice.  Begin single target rotation on whatever remains standing, throwing in AOE as necessary to pick off trailers.

 

Ok. So do you AaO before the Assassin strike or after?

I was under the assumption that AAO granted its damage buff while hidden so then you'd stealth in, get a ton of damage, BU + AS on the boss, telenuke everything into oblivion.

[Auroxis]

You don't need AAO for your telenukes. Build Up+Gauss proc is more than enough damage, and clears faster so your teammates don't waste their nukes while you go in and set up with AAO.

[Xaeon]

Also Lightning Rod and Shield Charge don't break hide apparently, so you can nuke with those and then still auto crit with another high damage attack. Knowing what I know now, I wish I could change my Elec/SD Scrapper to a a Stalker.

That is absurd

Are you implying that a Lightning Rod, Shield Charge, Spring attack wombo combo is not the stealthiest means to assassinate someone known to man?

[Auroxis]

You don't need AAO for your telenukes. Build Up+Gauss proc is more than enough damage, and clears faster so your teammates don't waste their nukes while you go in and set up with AAO.

 

This is just bad advice.  If you're worried about clear speed and nuke overlap, then use one per spawn instead of both at the same time.  The reason you take shield defense is for AAO, and avoiding using it on the highest potential damage powers is a very poor use of the powerset. Change your playstyle to maximize your output to better serve your team instead of settling. As a stalker you have the unique opportunity to actually utilize these powers with timing and finesse better than any other AT with the same powers.

 

Also, you should use Buildup on top of AAO.  What are you even talking about.

 

You're contradicting yourself. First you say use one per spawn, then you say you should avoid wasting damage buffs like AAO while ignoring the fact that wasting BU is way worse.

 

Build Up + Gaussian's proc is a massive damage buff of +160%. On a high-end build with Musculature and global damage buffs, your Lightning Rod/Shield Charge are at around +140% or more. So +300% already, before AAO. Assuming pseudo-pets aren't capped at +300%/400% (not sure if they changed it), a fully saturated AAO is only giving you about an effective 16% overall damage buff(465/400) once you stack it with all your other damage buffs.

 

AAO is a great power and it's a shame we can't use it comfortably on a stalker, but I'd say ignoring the mobility and speed of telenukes is just as equally bad advice, or even worse considering how powerful BU+Gaussian's Proc is in the PPM proc era so you don't need AAO nearly as much as before.

 

A good balance would be using AAO+LR for one pack, and AAO+BU+SC for another, but I still prefer using BU+Gauss to its full potential by using both nukes, and letting AAO carry my damage when nukes are recharging.

[Auroxis]

Please avoid putting words into people's mouth in an argument, it isn't productive and often leads to toxicity.

 

Just because AAO potentially increases your damage does not make it the optimal choice to utilize in a team environment with BU+LR+SC, as by the time you get into melee range, BU, attack, and LR+SC, someone or you could have cleared the pack already.

[Auroxis]

Please avoid putting words into people's mouth in an argument, it isn't productive and often leads to toxicity.

 

Just because AAO potentially increases your damage does not make it the optimal choice to utilize in a team environment with BU+LR+SC, as by the time you get into melee range, BU, attack, and LR+SC, someone or you could have cleared the pack already.

 

I'm sorry if you are feeling toxic, I'm just stating objectively what is wrong with your proposals.  If you don't want to discuss this, it's okay to stop.

 

If you are basing your argument solely on 'what other people could do/could have done' then anything is possible, I'm not sure what the issue is.  You can just say "Everything's always dead already so nothing matters". Keep doing what you're doing, my only issue is with giving suboptimal advice.

 

Objectively, AAO is always available and should be used whenever possible especially on AoE attacks that ramp up the damage further through proliferation.

 

I'm basing my argument on hours upon hours spent playing a high-end elec/shield stalker. I've tried staggering LR and SC, I've tried going into melee and un-stealthing before LR+SC. In my opinion, The slight potential effective damage buff from AAO isn't worth losing the mobility. In yours, it is. As simple as that.

 

In any case, I went testing to see if LR/SC are capped at 400% or 500%. They are indeed both capped at 400%/+300% so that's the end of this argument. Going in first for AAO isn't providing any benefit and is just a waste of time on a finished build unless you wanna use your nuke without BU.

[Auroxis]

Again, AAO is always available and should be used whenever possible.  This is regardless of outside circumstance (build, team, playstyle).  If you are however using a finished build, buildup will also always be available to you due to the massive amounts of recharge available in the post-50 game, making your argument again, somewhat pointless.  Just use both.

 

No, AAO shouldn't be used "whenever possible".

 

If it provides no benefit when BU+Gauss is up, and you see a pack ahead of you, there is absolutely no need to spend time getting into range and un-stealthing before LR+SC.

[Coyote]

Again, AAO is always available and should be used whenever possible.  This is regardless of outside circumstance (build, team, playstyle).  If you are however using a finished build, buildup will also always be available to you due to the massive amounts of recharge available in the post-50 game, making your argument again, somewhat pointless.  Just use both.

 

AAO is a +Damage buff. There are teams and there are also situations when soloing, when you are going to be at or very near the Damage cap. So at this point, AAO would be providing no boost or very little boost, while the gameplay change to run into the spawn and set up a single-target attack slows down the delivery of AoE damage compared to teleport-attacking into the middle from a distance. If you get no damage benefit from AAO but have to slow down the delivery of LR/SC, then AAO probably shouldn't be used in that situation.

 

I mean, with a Kinetic on the team... don't bother about AAO, just run in the middle, wait for the Fulcrum Shift, and AoE. You'll be well past the caps without AAO.

[Auroxis]

Again, AAO is always available and should be used whenever possible.  This is regardless of outside circumstance (build, team, playstyle).  If you are however using a finished build, buildup will also always be available to you due to the massive amounts of recharge available in the post-50 game, making your argument again, somewhat pointless.  Just use both.

 

No, AAO shouldn't be used "whenever possible".

 

If it provides no benefit when BU+Gauss is up, and you see a pack ahead of you, there is absolutely no need to spend time getting into range and un-stealthing before LR+SC.

 

Yes, you should, as in the long term it will provide a benefit if you are properly staggering your DPS from pack to pack.  Either there is a gap in your DPS (One mob, you Telenuke twice and the next mob you do nothing but single target/weak AoE's) or there isn't and you don't have buildup for at least one mob.  Again, it's okay to play inefficiently, but don't tell others to do the same.

 

Even if you stagger and choose to use one of your nukes without BU, there's no need to get into range before the one you use BU with.

[Auroxis]

Let's agree to disagree then.

[Auroxis]

You're only looking at part of the equation. Like I said repeatedly, what matters is the speed at which you clear, not that one time being slower overall got you a bit of a damage boost

[MunkiLord]

The specifics of a technique I have no interest in debating, that's whatever to me.

 

Again, it's okay to play inefficiently, but don't tell others to do the same.

 

But this right here is wrong. If it works for a person and they want to share it, so be it. If it's not the most efficient, so be it. Give other options, like you did, and people will choose what they want. But telling someone not to give advice because it doesn't meet your arbitrary and completely subjective standards, that is just ridiculous.

 

Not everybody cares about maximizing DPS or clear times, and in no way is a person obligated to cater their general advice to such situations. And they are also under zero obligation to qualify or state their advice as not optimal.

 

My advice to people is to dismiss such comments and share your thoughts and styles and if other people want to use it, cool. If not, that's cool too.

[Auroxis]

Spacing your attacks and gaining damage over time is in effect 'clearing' faster, although that doesn't seem to matter to you, which is fine, you can play how you like.  More damage over more spawns is literally more though.

 

I already addressed staggering, it's a more balanced approach but also one that wastes a massive damage buff on one of your nukes, and in most endgame spawns one nuke isn't enough. Situationally it can be better, but in my experience it rarely is.

 

 

You will do overall more damage if you properly utilize your powers, AAO being the primary one we're discussing right now but that also includes buildup and other damage boosting abilities.

 

Don't advise people to be less optimal just because you don't care about optimization.  Just because you 'feel' you 'clear' as fast with or without AAO doesn't mean it is true.

 

You're wasting potential damage by delaying your nukes. You're giving your team time to waste theirs. You're spending time getting into melee range and breaking hide for a buff that does nothing for you 90% of the time. You're being inefficient.

 

I'm done with this argument.

[MunkiLord]

The specifics of a technique I have no interest in debating, that's whatever to me.

 

Again, it's okay to play inefficiently, but don't tell others to do the same.

 

But this right here is wrong. If it works for a person and they want to share it, so be it. If it's not the most efficient, so be it. Give other options, like you did, and people will choose what they want. But telling someone not to give advice because it doesn't meet your arbitrary and completely subjective standards, that is just ridiculous.

 

Not everybody cares about maximizing DPS or clear times, and in no way is a person obligated to cater their general advice to such situations. And they are also under zero obligation to qualify or state their advice as not optimal.

 

My advice to people is to dismiss such comments and share your thoughts and styles and if other people want to use it, cool. If not, that's cool too.

 

Yes, take comments out of context to prove a point.  I repeatedly stated that you should always play the way you want, or the way that is most fun.  The discussion was about optimization, however.  So, I stand by what I said.  When talking about optimization, if you aren't optimizing, or talking about optimizing, what is the point?

 

You told someone not to share their opinion twice because it didn't meet your standards. That is literally what you did. I took nothing out of context.

[Sovera]

When Auroxis is providing numbers to back his explanation and the only answer is 'no, but...' I will be inclined to follow the theorycrafting of the one who explains their reasoning and then backs it with math.