Learning Dual Pistols

[Mercurias]

I started a DP/Elec Sentinel up recently for concept, and I’m really enjoying it so far. That being said, there are a whole lot of powers to choose from, and I’m trying to determine which ones are essential to a full rotation and survival.

 

I'm also trying to get my head wrapped around the Dual Pistols Ammo mechanic, and whether there are times I should be swapping between types of ammo for more than just, say, looking for -Res instead of a small fire DoT.

 

Does anyone’s know whether this particular pairing offers anything unique or special other than being a person covered in a cool electrical aura while he curves bullets and flips his pistols around like he’s auditioning for an Equilibrium sequel?

[Lockpick]

I have not played /Electric, but I have played a bunch of DP.  I have a DP/MC blaster, DP/EM blaster, and a DP/Ninjitsu sentinel at 50.  I also have started DP/WP, DP/Bio, and DP/SR characters that I have put on hold while leveling a few stalkers.

 

I love the visuals of DP (with the exception of Piercing Round), but overall I think the damage is probably mid-tier.  I think DP suffers from not having a build-up mechanic.

 

I generally use the incendiary version of Swap Ammo for the extra damage.  I have used all the versions of Swap Ammo and always come back to incendiary.  The base version provides KB, which can be good, but I find myself using this only after I get detoggled and I forget to go back to incendiary.  Seems there a various views on swap ammo, so your mileage may vary.

 

I believe the first 2 powers are mandatory, although you will hear feedback that only one is required.  I like both for blasters because of the ability to use the powers while mezzed and on Sentinels for the opportunity strikes mechanic.

 

I pretty much take all the powers from DP, except Suppressive Fire.  I like Suppressive Fire, but critters get defeated fast enough that I was rarely using it, so eventually dropped it from most of my builds.

 

I love the look of my DP/MC and DP/Ninjitsu characters.  These are builds that fit the natural theme very well.

 

Hope this helps a bit.  Enjoy the coolness of DP.

[Redlynne]

7 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

I think DP suffers from not having a build-up mechanic.

Try 5-slotting Decimation with the Build Up proc into Pistols. 😎

 

THAT'S your (poor man's) Build Up that you can proc more than once per minute.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Redlynne

[oldskool]

Perhaps you should read my current work-in-progress write-up on DP (page 3, scroll a bit). 

There are only 5 attacks that are essential for damage.  

 

Executioner's Shot, Suppressive Fire, and Pistols for single-target.  Bullet Rain and Hail of Bullets for AoE.  Empty Clips is an honorable mention.  

You can potentially skip Piercing Rounds and/or Dual Wield.  

 

I find the ammo powers are all or nothing.  Make a decision to run one based on what you feel is necessary and do that.  Incendiary Ammo adds over 30% damage to Piercing Rounds which is delivered in less than 3 seconds.  It's significant enough that it overpowers what that -9.6% resistance debuff does for the next 10 seconds.  I've run the math on doing the toggle dance, and you'll get more DPS not messing with that non-sense.  You can get higher DPS not using Piercing Rounds at all, but this has caveats.  

As I stated, run an ammo as all or nothing.  Why?  Well you can potentially be a force multiplier running standard ammo.  Piercing Rounds imposes -9.6% resistance which *can* be a benefit on some team make-ups.  While you're at it, you may as well keep ammo off since Pistols, Empty Clips and Executioner's Shot will debuff defense too.  That's an increase on your team's accuracy which can be beneficial on lower level content, and with some groups later.  At higher levels you can toss this idea out the window and brute force your way through things depending on how much you abuse damage procs or not.  If you don't do that, well then carry on with being a Defender-lite.  That flexibility is something I really enjoy.  

Standard ammo has knock back tied to Dual Wield, Empty Clips, Bullet Rain, Executioner's Shot, and a 100% chance in Hail of Bullets to knock down.  

Cryo Ammo* replaces all that KB/KD with attack speed and movement slows.  That's got a lot of potential for builds relying on a lot of regeneration or looking to help a slow heavy team (Time Manipulation, Ice sets, Tar Patch, Lingering Radiation, whatever).  

 

Chemical Ammo* reduces enemy damage which can also be a boon for resistance and regen-based sets.  It can also be a nice added perk when paired with other debuffers that have bigger numbers.  

 

*Just to note though, not running Incendiary Ammo is a significant DPS loss.  It's not tiny on Sentinels as the damage modifier of the AT exceeds the modifier to whatever debuffs it has.  So know that by running anything heavily defensive in nature like Cryo/Chemical is going to cost you damage.  If that loss of damage prolongs combat vs just taking enemies down fast in the first place, then it's not worth it.  Standard ammo is different though since you're potentially contributing team damage by a minor resistance debuff, but more importantly... 3 sources of -defense.  You can, at least... I DO, run into situations where Incendiary Ammo is better almost always.  

Again, all of that depends on how you slot ultimately, and what kind of group your with as well as the content.  

The only power I don't have on my DP/Nin is Dual Wield.  I have Pistols and Suppressive Fire with 3x procs and Executioner's Shot with 2.  Even if you don't get that extreme, those 3 powers are still the best single-target options in the set.  Piercing Rounds gets an honorable mention that since it can hit 3 targets, it's damage contribution is increased for every enemy past the first.  However, against a single tough target (AV/GM) Piercing Rounds is a DPS loss. 

Edited August 2, 2019 by oldskool

[Hopeling]

On the /Elec side, you definitely want all four toggles, Energize, and Lightning Reflexes. The other three powers are largely optional:

• Grounded gives minor resists (but you're capped to energy without it), endurance drain resist (again, you have plenty without it), and knock and immob protection (but only when near the ground). You can get the last two from a -KB IO and Combat Jumping if you want to skip this power, and if you're going to hoverblast you probably should get those regardless, because Grounded won't work while flying. I use it to mule one of the resist uniques.
• Power Sink is very powerful for resolving endurance issues, if you don't mind being near enemies and needing a couple targets to get full use out of it. Depending on the build, you may be fine without it. My Beam/Elec is at 50, but had endurance issues for most of the leveling process. Dual Pistols likes standing near enemies, since your nuke is PBAoE.
• Power Surge is the least useful of the three. It caps out all your resists for 3 minutes, but for a Sentinel that's only 75% anyway, and you're starting from ~40-60% resists, so it's not a huge increase in durability. Then it has the terrible -90% hp, -100% end, set-your-recovery-to-0 crash. Even with the EMP effect, it's very easy to die at the end of it. If you can time Power Sink + Energize just right, the crash might be survivable, especially with a Preventive Medicine proc and the fact that Sentinels don't taunt. Overall though, I'd rather just use a couple orange inspirations for the same effect and way less risk.

[BrandX]

I leveled up a DP/ELEC Sent, I enjoyed it, but I found the DP/NIN Sent more survivable.  Though, I just may not have had enough defense.

[Zale_Unda]

On the topic on DP secondaries which would you folks find better with Nin vs SR?

[oldskool]

1 hour ago, Zale_Unda said:

On the topic on DP secondaries which would you folks find better with Nin vs SR?

Depends on what you mean by "better". 

The two are so similar that a decision on which to use is going to boil down to personal preference. 

Things Nin has:

 

Both a health and endurance clickable heal.  These two powers can both be enhanced to be available frequently and each recover resource in bulk. 

At around level 28 you can pick up a power that grants minor resistance to all, and grants some knockback/down protection.  This protection is not covered by your standard mezz resist power that unlocks early. 

Nin has a click mezz resist (it has no knockback/down protection) that also grants some psionic resistance.  The heal clickable grants some resistance to toxic damage.

Shinobi-Iri has a stealth component and a movement speed buff.  It is also minor defense to all.  This can be your travel power when combined with Ninja Run and the other default features (Sprint/Hurdle/Swift). 

Blinding Powder at level 35 is a source for gaining a Confuse power effect which can be fun.  It's even better as an IO mule.

Nin and SR have a similar T9 but the big takeaway for Nin is that their T9 is a source of Defense Debuff Resistance (DDR) that the set doesn't have a lot of. 

 

SR:

 

Has an endurance recovery power that works over time like Stamina but is more potent. 

Has a choice between a clickable mezz resist OR a clickable health absorb shield that adds your mezz resist passively to powers you're already taking.  There is no knockdown/back hole.

SR has +20% recharge and movement speed buff with the power Quickness.

SR has more DDR natively in the set.

SR has scaling resistance values the lower your health gets, but it has no clickable heal of it's own (that absorb is handy to cover your butt though).

SR has slightly higher defense numbers making it cheaper to soft-cap in terms of power selection, slots used, and/or IO bonuses needed. 

In short, Nin has components that more active and clicky vs SR which is more passive.  SR can save you some influence on chasing global recharge since you get 20% off the bat.  Nin has more IO set diversity which lets you squeeze out a small amount of damage, but only if you're using IO sets that make use of it. 

So if you want more passive performance, you value stronger DDR, and perhaps some less expense to your build, go SR.  If you're planning to spend a dragon's horde of influence on the build, and you like having more control over the quality of life elements, then go Nin. 
 

Edited August 5, 2019 by oldskool

[Zale_Unda]

4 minutes ago, oldskool said:

Depends on what you mean by "better". 

The two are so similar that a decision on which to use is going to boil down to personal preference. 

Things Nin has:

 

Both a health and endurance clickable heal.  These two powers can both be enhanced to be available frequently and each recover resource in bulk. 

At around level 28 you can pick up a power that grants minor resistance to all, and grants some knockback/down protection.  This protection is not covered by your standard mezz resist power that unlocks early. 

Nin has a click mezz resist that also grants some psionic resistance.  The heal clickable grants some resistance to toxic damage.

Shinobi-Iri has a stealth component and a movement speed buff.  It is also minor defense to all.  This can be your travel power when combined with Ninja Run and the other default features (Sprint/Hurdle/Swift). 

Blinding Powder at level 35 is a source for gaining a Confuse power effect which can be fun.  It's even better as an IO mule.

Nin and SR have a similar T9 but the big takeaway for Nin is that their T9 is a source of Defense Debuff Resistance (DDR) that the set doesn't have a lot of. 

 

SR:

 

Has an endurance recovery power that works over time like Stamina but is more potent. 

Has a choice between a clickable mezz resist OR a clickable health absorb shield that adds your mezz resist passively to powers you're already taking. 

SR has +20% recharge and movement speed buff with the power Quickness.

SR has more DDR natively in the set.

SR has scaling resistance values the lower your health gets, but it has no clickable heal of it's own (that absorb is handy to cover your butt though).

SR has slightly higher defense numbers making it cheaper to soft-cap in terms of power selection, slots used, and/or IO bonuses needed. 

In short, Nin has components that more active and clicky vs SR which is more passive.  SR can save you some influence on chasing global recharge since you get 20% off the bat.  Nin has more IO set diversity which lets you squeeze out a small amount of damage, but only if you're using IO sets that make use of it. 

So if you want more passive performance, you value stronger DDR, and perhaps some less expense to your build, go SR.  If you're planning to spend a dragon's horde of influence on the build, and you like having more control over the quality of life elements, then go Nin. 
 

Thanks. That gives me a lot to maul over cause I like both these sets with DP but I only want to roll with one haha.

[Rathulfr]

I choose SR over Nin simply because I prefer to "set-it-and-forget-it", instead of having more buttons to click.  Nin is definitely strong, but more trouble than it's worth, to me.  YMMV.

[Mercurias]

8 hours ago, oldskool said:

Depends on what you mean by "better". 

The two are so similar that a decision on which to use is going to boil down to personal preference. 

Things Nin has:

 

<clip for post size>

 

SR:

 

<clip for post size>

In short, Nin has components that more active and clicky vs SR which is more passive.  SR can save you some influence on chasing global recharge since you get 20% off the bat.  Nin has more IO set diversity which lets you squeeze out a small amount of damage, but only if you're using IO sets that make use of it. 

So if you want more passive performance, you value stronger DDR, and perhaps some less expense to your build, go SR.  If you're planning to spend a dragon's horde of influence on the build, and you like having more control over the quality of life elements, then go Nin. 
 

Holy heck this is a lot of good info. Thank you!

[Ghost907]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 8:06 AM, Redlynne said:

Try 5-slotting Decimation with the Build Up proc into Pistols. 😎

 

THAT'S your (poor man's) Build Up that you can proc more than once per minute.

The uptime on the Build Up proc is questionable on whether it's worth the set for DP.  For instance, you will see more mileage on Devastation on the Hold proc.  But he is right, it's the poor man's Build Up.  I have fought (+2-3) Bosses and Elite Bosses (haven't done AVs yet) and my character hasn't felt the need to rely on Build Up to land damage on them.  Inspiration is the other poor man's Build Up.

[Lockpick]

14 hours ago, Zale_Unda said:

Thanks. That gives me a lot to maul over cause I like both these sets with DP but I only want to roll with one haha.

I have done the DP/Nin to 50 and have a DP/SR at 22.  I really like the DP/Nin because of the ability to Heal and get Endurance when needed.  That being, said I rarely need to use either power because I rarely get hit or run low on endurance.  I had posted a build with some brief comments, but cannot find it right now.  Here is the DP/Nin build I use:

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Gunfighter: Level 50 Natural Sentinel
Primary Power Set: Dual Pistols
Secondary Power Set: Ninjitsu
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Teleportation

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Pistols -- SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprOppStr-Dmg/Rchg(3), SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), SprOppStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), SprOppStr-Rchg/+Opportunity(36)
Level 1: Ninja Reflexes -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(11), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(11), Rct-ResDam%(48), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(48), Ksm-ToHit+(48)
Level 2: Dual Wield -- Dcm-Acc/Dmg(A), Dcm-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Dcm-Dmg/Rchg(7), Dcm-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(17), Dcm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), Dcm-Build%(36)
Level 4: Empty Clips -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(5), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(31), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(37)
Level 6: Shinobi-Iri -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(50), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 10: Kuji-In Rin -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Bullet Rain -- SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg(A), SprSntWar-Dmg/Rchg(13), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), SprSntWar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprSntWar-Rchg/+Absorb(37)
Level 14: Fly -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 16: Seishinteki Kyoyo -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(43), PrfShf-End%(46)
Level 18: Executioner's Shot -- Thn-Acc/Dmg(A), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(19), Thn-Dmg/Rchg(19), Thn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36)
Level 20: Kuji-In Sha -- DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx(A), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(23), DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(43), DctWnd-Heal(45), DctWnd-Rchg(45)
Level 22: Swap Ammo
Level 24: Danger Sense -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(37), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(45), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 26: Piercing Rounds -- Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(A), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(27), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(29), Rgn-Knock%(34)
Level 28: Bo Ryaku -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(29)
Level 30: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 32: Hail of Bullets -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(34)
Level 35: Blinding Powder -- CrcPrs-Conf(A), CrcPrs-Conf/Rchg(40), CrcPrs-Acc/Conf/Rchg(40), CrcPrs-Acc/Rchg(40), CrcPrs-Conf/EndRdx(42), CrcPrs-Conf%(43)
Level 38: Tough -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(39), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(39), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 41: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(42), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(42)
Level 44: Recall Friend -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 47: Air Superiority -- Acc-I(A)
Level 49: Afterburner -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(15), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(15), Prv-Absorb%(46)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(5), EndMod-I(9)
Level 22: Cryo Ammunition
Level 22: Incendiary Ammunition
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
Level 50: Pyronic Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Degenerative Core Flawless Interface
Level 50: Talons of Vengeance Radial Superior Ally
Level 50: Ageless Total Radial Invocation
Level 50: Assault Core Embodiment
Level 22: Chemical Ammunition
------------

 

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[Lockpick]

So, I found my build and comments in another thread.  The build is in the previous post, but here were my comments:

 

These IOs are my actual IOs, but most are attuned and I have Hasten at 50+5.  This build was setup to softcap Range, Melee, and AOE.  The actual in game numbers for these defenses are higher than the numbers in Pine's.  The slotting levels are probably not accurate and I am still working on my incarnates as I am only tier 4 on Alpha.  The rest are tier 3.

 

Some thoughts:

Hasten is not perma, but it comes up pretty quick for me and the powers recharge fast enough that sometimes I don't even use it.

Ninja Run, Sprint, and Shinobi-Iri stack for a solid travel power, so if you don't want to invest in a travel power there is no need to do so.

That being said, I like Fly and Afterburner and took them.  They are probably not optimal.  You could probably get rid of everything in the Fly pool and pick up something else if you are min/max.

I very rarely use Blinding Power and it has basically become a purple mule.  Probably something better to take out there.

End was a problem while leveling until I slotted health and stamina with the procs and now I have zero endurance issues even when I have fly, ninja run, sprint, and all my other toggles on.  As a matter of fact, Seishinteki Kyoyo is probably redundant as I rarely use it.

This build is very survivable and I very rarely get into trouble.  When I do get hit Kuji-In Sha provides a good amount of healing.

The DP damage seems low to me, but the ability to sustain damage is very good.  I tend to eat accuracy and damage inspirations to help out the damage.

I tend to slot Health, Stamina, and Combat jumping (here Ninja Reflexes instead of Combat Jumping) this way on my builds, which I am sure people might think is overkill.  I think the procs are very helpful and particularly like the combination of the Scaling Resist Damage proc and the Chance for Absorb proc for survivability.

I tried the Ninja Tool pool and very rarely used any of the powers.  It would be good to get a pool power that has some martial arts as I love the way DP and the kicks from Martial Combat look on my blaster.

In this build I would love to move Recall Friend earlier to exemplar and be able to stealth missions with teams, but I wanted Fly earlier so I could have an easier time be able to blast out of range while my defenses were lower.