Disable SG base passcode access in PvP zones

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

4 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

Denigrating others' playstyles while trying to champion your own isn't a great look.  Those who know me know that I absolutely loathe PvP with a passion.  I've never entered a PvP zone and never will.  Like it or not though, PvP is part of the game, a part that some people enjoy.  Other people enjoy PvE challenges, thus the Master of badges.

 

Who are you to say "Well, I don't like this part of the game and damn those who do?"

except this in no way negatively hurts those after the master of badges. nor did I suggest they be removed. I just stated that something that is purely about bragging rights should not come before a QoL factor that I suspect many more players prefer.

 

Like I said I can compromise. drasitcally reduce the cool down on base and mish tp as well as their casting time to help reduce the issue with it bugging out when team members change zones, and make a /command that is just for base to base travel and I am fine with taking away the current option. I can and do manage the risk in pvp zones like BB while getting shivans.

 

But as someone who does indeed enjoy a well designed pvp game play experience, trying to defend CoHs or those who enjoy it for the exploity massive power chasm between builds pvp system that coh has will not get anywhere with me. Ill tell anyone always if pvp is something they want to do, play an actual pvp game.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

11 hours ago, HeroReborn said:

I love the base from passcode, but especially combined with free SG bases with beacons, it does cheapen every other zone traveling power. Why buy the base TP power for 1million when this does better, faster and is free.

 

It can be used without cost, cooldown or animation time to escape from death. Not surprised that it would be used in PvP to runaway fast which would be annoying.

 

It  also does allow for easier rewards, in particular faster TFs meaning faster merits, and overall will bring the merits/time ratio out of whack for people not using the exploit.

Have you seen the times for speed TF completions that very few are going to come anywhere near pulling off? Not everyone has bothered with bases and teleport systems, not everyone has learned the passcode macro, I mean I teach it to all my sg members its in the bloody sg description actually. However at most it shaves a few minutes of travel time here and there. It does basically waht base tp should have always done. I mean does Captain Kirk have to wait forever for a port up? Does it take forever and be easily disrupted? only when its plot relevant.

 

What about if everyone in party has long range teleport, ATT and mish tp? sucha  team can indeed move very quickly with some coordination. Should those powers be disabled on TFs to prevent faster times and avoid merits being reduced?

 

Im sorry but this is a non issue and a non exploit, at worst its a bug with an incidental QoL perk, and the only few iffy situations are ones that are not really worth being placed higher then QoL features enjoyed by many. The numbers that care about pvp or bragging right badges are few, the numbers that focus on pve content play in a fun, friendly manner, social role players and the rest are far greater in my experience.

 

You know the only badges I ever felt that really mattered on live was my year one vet badge that was it. The one that showed I had been around at least at the end of the first year of the game being live.  Otherwise only accolade power related badges mattered to me, and a great many others I knew.

[Moonshades]

22 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

except this in no way negatively hurts those after the master of badges. nor did I suggest they be removed. I just stated that something that is purely about bragging rights should not come before a QoL factor that I suspect many more players prefer.

 

Like I said I can compromise. drasitcally reduce the cool down on base and mish tp as well as their casting time to help reduce the issue with it bugging out when team members change zones, and make a /command that is just for base to base travel and I am fine with taking away the current option. I can and do manage the risk in pvp zones like BB while getting shivans.

 

But as someone who does indeed enjoy a well designed pvp game play experience, trying to defend CoHs or those who enjoy it for the exploity massive power chasm between builds pvp system that coh has will not get anywhere with me. Ill tell anyone always if pvp is something they want to do, play an actual pvp game.

CoH is an actual pvp game and has been since 2005, when the arena was first implemented. So, for most of it's lifetime. Just because the pvp parts are opt-in doesn't change that. Just because the pvp community is small doesn't change that. Just because you personally don't like the mechanics of pvp doesn't change that.

 

And because the pvp is totally opt-in you have to accept the risks of going into pvp zones if you want that Shivan temp or those exploration badges or what have you. Shivans are a nicety, I don't remember them being required to complete any content in the game.

 

The fact that you think it's perfectly fine to use such an exploit shows that the macro exploit probably does need to be removed or at least nerfed heavily. And might I say that you don't think it matters at all whether or not you can just zip out instantly is a bit insulting to people who enjoy that aspect of the game. Let me ask you this, if  pvp doesn't matter in this game, why does it matter if you die from a pvp kill? What adverse effect does it have on you? Do you get xp debt? Does it make your mission fail? At most it means you have to spend an extra minute or two getting that temp power. That you think it's okay to use an exploit to avoid the pvp kill tells me that you are thinking "lol PVPers" when you activate that and that makes you part of the problem.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Moonshades
Spelling

[Megajoule]

Bentley, before I read your posts I would have said i was PvP's least biggest fan (in this game and in general). And even so, I gotta say, you're being a jerk about this.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

27 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

Bentley, before I read your posts I would have said i was PvP's least biggest fan (in this game and in general). And even so, I gotta say, you're being a jerk about this.

Actually Id say I am being a barmy berk about this, of the low english cockney variety. But I am remaining civil and not hurling personal insults. So pot and kettle? Oh that sounds good off to get a fresh cuppa;)

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

32 minutes ago, Moonshades said:

CoH is an actual pvp game and has been since 2005, when the arena was first implemented. So, for most of it's lifetime. Just because the pvp parts are opt-in doesn't change that. Just because the pvp community is small doesn't change that. Just because you personally don't like the mechanics of pvp doesn't change that.

 

And because the pvp is totally opt-in you have to accept the risks of going into pvp zones if you want that Shivan temp or those exploration badges or what have you. Shivans are a nicety, I don't remember them being required to complete any content in the game.

 

The fact that you think it's perfectly fine to use such an exploit shows that the macro exploit probably does need to be removed or at least nerfed heavily. And might I say that you don't think it matters at all whether or not you can just zip out instantly is a bit insulting to people who enjoy that aspect of the game. Let me ask you this, if  pvp doesn't matter in this game, why does it matter if you die from a pvp kill? What adverse effect does it have on you? Do you get xp debt? Does it make your mission fail? At most it means you have to spend an extra minute or two getting that temp power. That you think it's okay to use an exploit to avoid the pvp kill tells me that you are thinking "lol PVPers" when you activate that and that makes you part of the problem.

Tell me do you think 8 on 1 is a good pvp design? do you think vast chasms in build power are good pvp design? Just because there is pvp does not make the game a pvp game. Guild Wars is a pvp game it was designed from the ground up with pvp in mind. It had a very active team spend years fine tuning every skill and spell and made sure the difference betweena fully kitted out player and a average gear character was a few % difference at best in performance.

 

Warframe like CoH added pvp as an after thought, both have a wide array of powers and abilities etc to choose from, and just as coh on live and now is basically a ghost town in the pvp aspect so to is Warframe one of the most widely played online games atm and basically for the same reasons, when pvp is added as an after thought, and the game is balanced around pve game play, and people are playing super heroes or in warframes case space ninja sentai heroes, the pvp is just a terribad feature that actually hurts the over all player base growth as those who do try it can find it so badly done it taints their view of the entire game\

 

Since Homecoming Ive bothered to get shivans like 4 times. Ive had zero pvp encounters. I genuinely feel the zones would be better used as new co op zones. I feel the pve content in those zones while minimal would serve the population far better as accessible content without the tag of a pvp zone that will keep many from ever even seeing the zones that took development time to make and was largely seen as one of the great waste and blunders of the game on live. Devs themselves admitted the metrics showed so little player use as to justify all the complaints from players who felt their sub money was wasted on content they would never use.

[MunkiLord]

Your reasoning can be summed up as since you don't like it, it should be removed despite the fact that there are people that do like it. That is a terrible opinion and one that should not be entertained by anybody, especially people that make decisions on the future of this game.

[ShardWarrior]

On 8/25/2019 at 11:11 AM, Leandro said:

That command was never intended to be available to regular players, since it can be used as a death escape mechanic not only in PVP but in challenges like Master of Task Forces. It just hasn't been a priority to fix, but it will happen eventually.

 

The LFG queue is something I hadn't considered before and will need to think about how to address.

Probably should have thought of this before advertising it via live streams showing off various bases.  

 

I will wager 99.99% of the people using the command are not using it as an exploit.

 

Please don't punish the majority due to the actions of a select few. 

 

 

[Moonshades]

3 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

(Stuff about pvp in this and other games)

Irrelevant to the topic at hand. If you want to have a discussion about pvp balance issues, by all means, make a thread about that. 

 

Your point about 8 to 1 odds has nothing to do with the discussion, because again, you're choosing to opt-in to that situation. (Actually show me on Everlasting where that actually ever happens and I'll give you a million inf)

 

Your other points about what pvp does in other games is again irrelevant, because the point still stands that you're perfectly willing to use an exploit to cheat other players out the legitimate fun they enjoy.

[PaxArcana]

It sounds to me like this would just be a matter of consistency in the rules.

As such, despite not giving a fig about PvP normally ... +1 from me.

[PaxArcana]

9 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Please don't punish the majority due to the actions of a select few. 

Maybe it would be possible to disallow it if the character is actively in combat ...?

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, PaxArcana said:

Maybe it would be possible to disallow it if the character is actively in combat ...?

Not a bad suggestion at all - or just disable it from working in PvP zones.

[Moonshades]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

Not a bad suggestion at all - or just disable it from working in PvP zones.

This was the OP's point I believe and I would assume easier than trying to disable it only on characters in the zone actively engaged in pvp.

[PaxArcana]

1 minute ago, Moonshades said:

This was the OP's point I believe and I would assume easier than trying to disable it only on characters in the zone actively engaged in pvp.

Leandro - you know, one of the HC dev team - has said it isn't supposed to be available to players at all, because it could be used as a "get out of death free" exploit.  As in, anywhere, not just in PvP.

 

ShardWarrior asked that people who aren't using it that way not be punished for the few who might.

I then suggested a possible way to eliminate the exploit, without eliminating the entire command itself.  🙂

[Steampunkette]

It's going to get disabled. That's really not a matter of debate, I think.

 

It wasn't meant to be turned on for global use and it circumvents a -ton- of other stuff. The Devs have said it's going to be disabled soon.

 

The whole "PvP shouldn't dictate" blather is irrelevant. The "Make it not work in PvP Zones" blather is irrelevant.

 

This thread should've ended 10am (CST) yesterday when Leandro said it wasn't gonna be available.

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Moonshades said:

This was the OP's point I believe and I would assume easier than trying to disable it only on characters in the zone actively engaged in pvp.

If the concern is that it is an insta-port to prevent a PvP kill or death for Master of TFs, then just have it bring up the prompt to enter the pass code before it will work.   This way, it will require some input before being used, which should be long enough to prevent someone from exploiting it as an escape from death.

[PaxArcana]

Okay, okay, new idea:

 

Make it a power you get only at, say, Vet Level 100.  🙂  You click the power, the passcode prompt comes up.  No more exploit potential ... and, 'cause it's something you gott a work toward for a loooooong time, the "bypasses other stuff" part won't really matter anymore, either.  🙂

[Moonshades]

2 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Leandro - you know, one of the HC dev team - has said it isn't supposed to be available to players at all, because it could be used as a "get out of death free" exploit.  As in, anywhere, not just in PvP.

 

ShardWarrior asked that people who aren't using it that way not be punished for the few who might.

I then suggested a possible way to eliminate the exploit, without eliminating the entire command itself.  🙂

I didn't realize that you were talking about the game in general. Of course I agree with you that it shouldn't be used as a death escape in any situation.

[ShardWarrior]

4 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

It's going to get disabled. That's really not a matter of debate, I think.

 

It wasn't meant to be turned on for global use and it circumvents a -ton- of other stuff. The Devs have said it's going to be disabled soon.

 

The whole "PvP shouldn't dictate" blather is irrelevant. The "Make it not work in PvP Zones" blather is irrelevant.

 

This thread should've ended 10am (CST) yesterday when Leandro said it wasn't gonna be available.

 

 

Circumvents what?  Using the train to travel?  Most all of the time, the train is more convenient to use due to where the mission entry is located.  The port to base is a nice-to-have. 

[Leandro]

11 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Please don't punish the majority due to the actions of a select few. 

Nobody's getting "punished" for using the command while it's unlocked, but it is not going to stay unlocked forever. All the arguments above keep pretending that this isn't a GM-only command that accidentally got exposed; if /mapmove was accidentally made available to all players tomorrow, the arguments on both sides would be the exact same, and the end result would not change: it's a GM-only command, not meant for player use; it being available to players is not intended and will be fixed eventually.

 

Mind you, just locking away the command everywhere is easy and could have been done already. However, I recognize that using it to hop inbetween bases once you're in one doesn't hurt anything, and that the existing Base Teleporter powers have very long recharge and seem to be affected by an isssue that makes them interrupt easily. This requires time from the powers dev (who's busy finishing the Snipes/Assault changes) and the code dev (who's busy fixing problems with the 64-bit migration). It's not a priority. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[Megajoule]

Thanks for the official word (again). Can we get this thread closed now?

[ShardWarrior]

4 minutes ago, Leandro said:

However, I recognize that using it to hop inbetween bases once you're in one doesn't hurt anything

No it doesn't hurt anything and it has been a wonderful tool for those of us in the base building community to readily and easily share our creations with others.    I guess that doesn't count for anything though ...

 

Oh well, it was fun sharing bases while it lasted.

[Moonshades]

6 minutes ago, Leandro said:

Nobody's getting "punished" for using the command while it's unlocked, but it is not going to stay unlocked forever. All the arguments above keep pretending that this isn't a GM-only command that accidentally got exposed; if /mapmove was accidentally made available to all players tomorrow, the arguments on both sides would be the exact same, and the end result would not change: it's a GM-only command, not meant for player use; it being available to players is not intended and will be fixed eventually.

 

Mind you, just locking away the command everywhere is easy and could have been done already. However, I recognize that using it to hop inbetween bases once you're in one doesn't hurt anything, and that the existing Base Teleporter powers have very long recharge and seem to be affected by an isssue that makes them interrupt easily. This requires time from the powers dev (who's busy finishing the Snipes/Assault changes) and the code dev (who's busy fixing problems with the 64-bit migration). It's not a priority. Enjoy it while it lasts.

Okay, that's a fair thing to say. The fact that fixing the problems with existing base teleport powers is on the radar is considerably mollifying.

[PaxArcana]

2 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

Oh well, it was fun sharing bases while it lasted.

... maybe a new Beacon could be added, that enables base-to-base teleporting ...?

[ShardWarrior]

Just now, PaxArcana said:

... maybe a new Beacon could be added, that enables base-to-base teleporting ...?

Seems like this is of no importance, so I imagine we'll be stuck with the existing P2W version.