Ice Ice Tanker.

[Golden Azrael]

Ice primary and Ice 2ndary.

 

Anybody got any tips or builds they can share?  Or good IO sets to put in to boost def, res' or recharge?

 

Is it true that the Ice Melee power at (Frozen Aura?)  L38 for tank is merely a sleep with no damage?

 

It says moderate damage in the description.  AoE dam plus Frost stacked would be good.  Be if it's purely a sleep, I don't understand the point of it.

 

Current defence for smashing and lethal is about 27%-ish.  For a defence based tank it seems pretty weak.  But the ice tank does have tools for surviving like Dull Pain (Hoar Frost) and Hibernation.  Pretty difficult to kill.

 

Plus Tough for resistance.  I suppose I could take Weave to boost basic defence to above 30%.  General IOs fitted.  No sets yet.

 

Hoar Frost (3 heal, 3 recharge) and Icicles (1 acc, 2 dam, 2 end, 1 rech' so far....)

 

Currently at L37.  

 

Any thoughts..?

 

Ice melee.  I know.  But I wanted to keep the theme 'ice.'  'Greater ice sword' is great in name only...  Frost and the Frozen touch seem like the best melee powers.

 

Epics?  Ice.  Ice Blast.  Touch and Ice Storm.  Which will leave me room for Cross Slap from Fighting or Hasten.  (Which would make Dull Pain come around much faster....)

 

Azrael.

[Hyperstrike]

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Peltier Effect: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Ice Melee
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(3)
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(A), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx(37), CrsImp-Dmg/Rchg(40), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42)
Level 2: Hoarfrost -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(3), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(5), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 4: Frost -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(7), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(11), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(11)
Level 6: Chilling Embrace -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(9)
Level 10: Taunt -- MckBrt-Taunt(A), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg(43), MckBrt-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(43), MckBrt-Acc/Rchg(43), MckBrt-Taunt/Rng(46), MckBrt-Rchg(50)
Level 12: Permafrost -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(13), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(13), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(19), GldArm-3defTpProc(21)
Level 14: Icicles -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(15), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(15), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(19)
Level 16: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A)
Level 18: Glacial Armor -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(21)
Level 20: Ice Patch -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 22: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(23), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(23), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(25), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(27)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(25)
Level 26: Energy Absorption -- PrfShf-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(A), EffAdp-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(27)
Level 28: Freezing Touch -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(29), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(34)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(31)
Level 32: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 35: Greater Ice Sword -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(36), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(37), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(37)
Level 38: Frozen Aura -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(39), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(40)
Level 41: Super Speed -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 44: Char -- SprEnt-Acc/Hold(A), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg(45), SprEnt-End/Rchg(45), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End(45), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg(46), SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc(46)
Level 47: Fire Blast -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(48), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(48), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(50), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(50)
Level 49: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(31), Mrc-Rcvry+(33)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(33)
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
Level 50: Reactive Core Flawless Interface
Level 50: Ion Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Longbow Core Superior Ally
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment
------------

 

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[Redlynne]

I wrote one up a while back ... although I'd want to update the build plan with some of the info that has been discovered since then ...

[tellania]

Ice/Ice/Ice baby ...

 

From my perspective, Ice is a different creature.   You can easily max out your defenses (sans psi/toxic).   The best way to play ice/ice/ice is, as a tankcontroller.

 

You understand Hoarfrost (dull pain), but to add:

1.  Chilling embrace - Causes your enemies to have -damage, -recharge, and -slow (or is it +slow ...).   Pop a slow IO (or the slow damage proc, if desired).   Why?  See #2

2.  Hibernate - Hibernate is your get out of jail free card.   First, you do NOT have to wait until you have 100% recharged your health and stamina.   This is a nice duality.   Your foes are suffering slow effects from chilling embrace.   You are hit with massive damage, and need a heal.   Hit Hibernate.   The taunt of your aura's will hold them a long time (I think 13ish seconds).   If some blaster out aggro's you, they will still have the -run speed (slow).   I believe it lasts 13 seconds (the taunt aura), which should be enough for hibernate, heal, pop out, taunt, etc.   Hibernate is very useful esp for alpha's .   For the CW king, I got hit by the psi blast.   Dropped very low on HP, and healed up with hibernate.   Before I went in, I told the team, to wait until I got aggro.   If the team listens (big IF, but mine did), they will wait an extra 5-10 seconds.   Very useful with hard hitting AV's (bobcat, in incarnate TF ...).

 

For ice melee:

I believe damage was added to frozen aura as it was the most worthless power ever.    From memory, it should do footstomp level damage but its all COLD (less resisted).   The sleep is a nice side effect, and allows slotting sleep IO's (e.g. Placate  (not sure why a tank would ever slot placate (PvP maybe??), chance for -recharge, or chance of self heal).    This was a spectacular win for ice melee, which, as you can tell, is sub par damage-wise.

 

Ice patch - Ice patch enables the 'other' form of damage mitigation: knock down.   Unlike regen/healing/resists/defense, this relies on the time an enemy is incapacitated (knocked down then getting up).     With chilling embrace -recharge, you can greatly reduce the incoming MELEE damage (does nothing for range damage).

 

Freezing touch - A good hold, and does damage.   Best paired with a hold APP, you can even hold bosses and elite bosses (again if memory serves).   Add a few attacks with a proc %chance to hold, and you are holding the baddest of the bad (you wont hold entire groups like controllers, but you are far more survivable than them).

 

Taunt - many forget, it also has a -range component.   VERY useful to bringing in those outside your aura's, inside your aura.

 

frost - gives -recharge and -slow, doing haymaker (pure cold!) damage in a cone!   Works well with chilling embrace.   To get the MOST out of it, pop in 2-3 hami dam/range.   From experience, the default range is too small to be effective beyond a single target.   I popped 2 in there, and was surprised at how many more are affected by the cone.    Best use of hami damage/range is melee cones, imho.   Go around a corner when herding, and give them a frost blast for fun and giggles.

 

app: hold (discussed), range, shiver (-recharge, -speed!).

 

Strengths:

1.   Defense can be capped, easily (sans psi/toxic)

2.  Hoarfrost can be perma, allowing massive regen/HP.

3.  Lots and lots of -recharge, slow effects

4.  Some -damage.

5.  Can perma-hold bosses (singular).

 

Weakness:

1.  Not good at mass herding.  the -slow will make it painful to herd them doggies!  Hint: make it a habit to turn off chilling embrace then on.    This will help, but other powers will cause slows.

2.  Not good at burst damage.   I HIGHLY recommend tough and the 2 +resistance IO's (should put you around 32%).   Lots of IO's have +SL resistance (I have an SR tank near 75% SL resistance, but I build for that).

3.  Damage is not great

 

 

I recommend going dual build for ice/ice/ice (doesnt have to be expensive).

build 1: group tank (add recharge, keep hoarfrost perma, and add +SL resists, and feel free to add some hold procs).  Get tough.  Feel free to get weave, since it will only cost 1 power anyways (tough requires kick/boxing).

build 2: more damage!

But, you can do both, with some compromises.

 

Depending on how you play, ice tanks can be surprisingly fun.   As a group tank, you wont have massive damage, but you will reduce most attack rates to zero, keep them close to you, and hold any big bosses from hitting you (in case of freaks, ice patch is the great equalizer).   I prefer going with the tanktroller role.   Its unique, novel and more active in tanking.  Plus, your damage is pure cold, not smashing.   You will do better damage than a rage-less super-strength tank (rage makes SS great), have LOTS of control, and options to survive, while keeping your team alive.

 

 

 

 

[Nemesis18]

A bit late, but was asked to post my Ice/Ice build.  Here are the key stats:

 

RES:

• S/L: 44%
• Fire: 71%
• Cold: 90%
• E/NE: 17%
• P/T: 37%

DEF (w/o energy absorption):

• S/L: 55%
• F/C: 38%
• E/NE: 50%
• P: 17%

Recharge: +62.50%

When I jump into a mob, I'll taunt the bosses.  Next, I'll pop energy absorption (if its up) and follow with ice storm and then ice patch.  The knockdown in ice patch, icicles, and ice storm (the latter two due to procs) keep many foes incapacitated while the team finishes them off.  I'll use hoarfrost and hibernate as necessary.

 

With the buffs to freezing touch and frozen aura, damage isn't as bad as it once was.  I have to pay more attention to my health but I like the set.  Definitely not as sturdy as my Shield or Stone tanks, but fun to play.

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Winter Tide: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Ice Melee
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Arctic Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- GifoftheA-Def/EndRdx(A), GifoftheA-Def/Rchg(3), GifoftheA-EndRdx/Rchg(3), GifoftheA-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(5), GifoftheA-Def(5), GifoftheA-Run+(7)
Level 1: Frozen Fists -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(17), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(25), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(27)
Level 2: Hoarfrost -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(7), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(9), Prv-Heal/Rchg(9), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(11), Prv-Absorb%(11)
Level 4: Frost -- SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(A), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(46), SprFrzBls-Rchg/ImmobProc(50)
Level 6: Chilling Embrace -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Taunt -- PrfZng-Taunt/Rng(A), PrfZng-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(42), PrfZng-Taunt/Rchg(42)
Level 12: Icicles -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(13), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(17)
Level 14: Fly -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Glacial Armor -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(19), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(19), Rct-Def/Rchg(21), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(21), Rct-ResDam%(23)
Level 20: Ice Patch -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 22: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(27)
Level 26: Energy Absorption -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(A), LucoftheG-EndRdx/Rchg(29), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(29), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(33), LucoftheG-Def(33), LucoftheG-Rchg+(33)
Level 28: Freezing Touch -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(34), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(40)
Level 30: Weave -- ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(A), LucoftheG-Def(31), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(31), LucoftheG-Rchg+(31)
Level 32: Hibernate -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A)
Level 35: Greater Ice Sword -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(36), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(37), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(37)
Level 38: Frozen Aura -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(39), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Arm-Acc/Rchg(39), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(40), Arm-Dam%(40)
Level 41: Block of Ice -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Ice Blast -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg(45), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(46), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc(46)
Level 47: Ice Storm -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(48), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(50), Rgn-Knock%(50)
Level 49: Permafrost -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(42)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
Level 50: Cryonic Core Final Judgement 
Level 50: Diamagnetic Core Flawless Interface 
Level 50: Polar Lights Core Superior Ally 
Level 50: Rebirth Core Epiphany 
Level 50: Melee Radial Embodiment 
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 0: Task Force Commander 
------------

Edited August 25, 2019 by Nemesis18

[Rylas]

1 hour ago, Nemesis18 said:

A bit late, but was asked to post my Ice/Ice build.  Here are the key stats:

 

That was me. Thanks! Can't wait to take a look at it!

[Nemesis18]

Awesome!  Any feedback is appreciated, always looking to improve.

[Ekimmak]

About the only thing on that build that bugs me is that it skips Frozen Sword. I dunno, I think if there's something I'd want to skip in Ice Melee, it's Ice Patch. Using that when you have a level advantage could end up scattering them away from icicles.

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, Ekimmak said:

About the only thing on that build that bugs me is that it skips Frozen Sword. I dunno, I think if there's something I'd want to skip in Ice Melee, it's Ice Patch. Using that when you have a level advantage could end up scattering them away from icicles.

The thing is, Ice Patch is KD.  Intentionally.
Granted, SOME enemies are susceptible to KD/KB and will ALWAYS react as KB.
But that's relatively few.

[Nemesis18]

3 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

The thing is, Ice Patch is KD.  Intentionally.
Granted, SOME enemies are susceptible to KD/KB and will ALWAYS react as KB.
But that's relatively few.

Right.  In my experience, it's mostly been Clockwork.  If you slot a KB proc in a KD power, you will KB more foes (which is why I avoid that!).  😀

[Generator]

On 8/25/2019 at 6:56 PM, Nemesis18 said:

A bit late, but was asked to post my Ice/Ice build.  Here are the key stats:

 

That's a really nice-looking build, I might crib some pieces from that.  🙂  I'm of a similar mind as the guy who thought ditching Ice Sword wasn't a great idea.  IMO, the real dog of the set is Greater Ice Sword.  Its animation time can be measured in hours...

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

Generator

[Hyperstrike]

All of the "sword" powers in Ice generally suck on a DPA basis.

[Redlynne]

9 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

All of the "sword" powers in Ice generally suck on a DPA basis.

Frozen Fists "does more damage" thanks to the Bruising debuff effect.

[Generator]

7 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

All of the "sword" powers in Ice generally suck on a DPA basis.

Even so, among a pack of dogs, GIS is a real woofer.

 

I remember doing some quick napkin math back in the day, comparing the various high DMG ST attacks of various Tanker sets, comparing them by DPA.  GIS was just way the hell down there, last by a mile.  IIRC, I calculated it would need about a 90% boost to its base damage to get to the median DPA value of that set of attacks.  If at the same time, you shortened its animation to use the one from Icy Assault's "Ice Slash" (that set's unique replacement of GIS), the mount you have to buff by drops to about 45%.

 

(Don't hold me to those numbers, that's to the best of my recollection of some Excel doodling I did 7-8 years ago while bored at work.  🙂 )

[Redlynne]

12 hours ago, Generator said:

GIS was just way the hell down there, last by a mile.  IIRC, I calculated it would need about a 90% boost to its base damage to get to the median DPA value of that set of attacks.  If at the same time, you shortened its animation to use the one from Icy Assault's "Ice Slash" (that set's unique replacement of GIS), the mount you have to buff by drops to about 45%.

[Justaris]

Call of the Sandman also has a heal proc which you may want to consider, can be significant in powers hitting multiple targets

[Generator]

@Redlynne, that's great, but as I said, what I was aiming for when I looked at that was comparing GIS to its comparable powers in other Tanker Secondaries.  KO Blow, Greater Fire Sword, Shatter, and so on.

[Redlynne]

Let's just settle for the notion that a T8 attack has a LOWER Damage Per Animation (second) than the T2 attack in the same powerset ... and also notice it it barely (just barely!) exceeds the same metric with respect to the T1 attack ... and just leave it at that.

 

Greater Ice Sword ... NOT better than nothing!

[Ekimmak]

Either way, I'm not 100% convinced that going without a second single target attack power for so long is a good choice.

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, Ekimmak said:

Either way, I'm not 100% convinced that going without a second single target attack power for so long is a good choice.

Why?

Frozen Fists (ST) ... Frost (Cone) ... Freezing Touch (ST) ... and Frozen Aura (PBAoE) ... are all of the attack chain you "need" out of Ice Melee.  If you take Ice Sword, it ironically winds up being a "filler" attack, in my experience ... and Greater Ice Sword just wastes space on the powertrays.

[Ekimmak]

 

13 hours ago, Redlynne said:

Why?

Frozen Fists (ST) ... Frost (Cone) ... Freezing Touch (ST) ... and Frozen Aura (PBAoE) ... are all of the attack chain you "need" out of Ice Melee.  If you take Ice Sword, it ironically winds up being a "filler" attack, in my experience ... and Greater Ice Sword just wastes space on the powertrays.

No, I agree that's a proper attack chain.

 

I'm saying that levelling it will be a right pain, because all you have is Brawl, Mutagen, and Frozen fists. As someone who *is* trying to level a double ice tanker at the moment, going without an extra attack that long would be a right slog.

[Redlynne]

P2W vendor will give you access to the Origin attack power of your choice (I like either Amulet for Resist debuffing, Taser for Hold or Throwing Knives for additional DoT) along with Ghost Slaying Axe/Sands of Mu and Nemesis Staff/Blackwand as additional fillers for your attack chain.  It's not the fastest way to defeat $Targets ... but it's adequate to the job.

 

Mind you, as an Ice/Ice Tanker a significant portion of your damage production will come from Icicles, while a big boost to your survivability will come from Chilling Embrace.  Draw stuff in and help them "exist to defeat" around you (so to speak).  Use Frost via Hop 'n' Pop move to defeat them wholesale, rather than retail.