Tankers and Knockback Resistance vs Knockback Protection

[CrimsonOne]

I have been running some tests on my Electric Armor/Energy Melee Tanker over the past few days and I have run across an issue I think should be looked into. 

 

As many of you might know Electric Armor comes with a power called Grounded that gives you Knockback Protection at a whopping Mag 15.6, and in most cases this is enough to get you through just about everything. Most people don't slot other AT's past a Mag 8 for Knockback. So, I figured this would be good enough for my Tank.

 

Then Lord Recluse happened ...

 

 

 

Old spider-butt couldn't hurt me, but he was bouncing me around like I was a basketball. So this got me wondering about how much KB Protection I would need to add to prevent him from knocking me down again.  However, slots are valuable so I had to be able to only alter one or two slots to add more KB to achieve this. So I added another Mag 4 KB enhancement to my build and increased my KB Protection to 19.6 and tried it again. 

 

 

And yet again, I was still knocked down!

So I took to Mid's and started looking at all the Tank Armor Sets and noticed something.  Three of the eleven Armors didn't have Knockback Resistance at all, which is something entirely different from Knockback Protection. Fire Armor, and Dark Armor, don't even have powers that give them KB protection of any kind, so they have to slot KB Protection into their builds, which seems odd for a Tank. 

 

The other eight Armor sets give an INSANE Knockback Resistance, AND Mag 10 Protection. 

 

Screenshot from my Super Strength/Invul Tanker

 

Knockback Protection 10.0
Knockback Resistance 1.00% Distance
(Unyielding -9900.00% distance from self) WTF???

 

Vs. what my Electric Armor Tank gets ... 

 

 

Knockback Protection 19.6

Knockback Resistance 100.00% distance

 

Following the logic from the screenshots above, KB Protection 10.0 + KB Resistance 1.0% is somehow greater than KB Protection 19.6 + KB Resistance 100% ... Weird! I know there is more going on here, but you see my point.

 

So, my recommendation is to level the playing field and make all Tanks equal in this area and give them all the same Knockback Resistance and Protection. I don't see anything special in their power sets that would make the other three any stronger if they could stand on their feet the whole time like the other Tanks.

 

• Fire Armor - Add it to Plasma Shield
• Dark Armor - Add it to Obsidian Shield
• Electric Armor - Add it to Grounded and balance the KB Protection to match the others. I would still leave the part of this power that requires you to remain on the ground for it to work. 😃

 

This would make Knockback Resistance exclusive to ALL Tanks, which makes them all tanky and stuff! Then all the Squishies of the world can have all the Knock Protection they want.

 

If you think adding this KB Resistance to these three Tank Armor types would be a mistake I would love to hear your reasoning. If you support this idea I would love to hear that as well.

 

Thanks for reading through all this!

 

 

[EverStryke]

Make tanks great again!!!

 

This definitely needs to be done asap!

[Hyperstrike]

Can you post your build here?
Need to see what could be contributing to this.

Dumb question.  Were you using Lightning Rod?
Remember that Grounded ONLY applies when you're ACTUALLY on the ground.
If you're hopping around, or use LR, you open yourself up to KB.

Edited September 3, 2019 by Hyperstrike

[EverStryke]

If he's got grounded and he's got four or five knock-back protection iOS...

 

There's nothing contributing to knock back. Simply put it's exactly the opposite which is what he was trying to say.

 

 

[CrimsonOne]

The only time my feet left the ground is when Recluse made them leave the ground. And since it is Energy melee, no I did not use Lightning Rod. 😃

[EverStryke]

Same exact problem happens on fire tankers every time you try to tank recluse.

[CrimsonOne]

On a side note. My team had a Kin who was hitting me with Increase Density as well, which also adds a Mag 10 KB for 60 seconds, which can stack, and I know they stacked that on me a few times, and yet I still got knocked on my butt. So it all boils down to that Knockback Resistance that is not attainable unless it is coded into the build.  

[macskull]

Fire and Dark don't have any inherent knockback protection ostensibly because they're more offense-oriented and trade that survivability for extra damage. Elec is also more offense-oriented (damage aura, basically) but it does get knockback protection that thematically fits within the set. "But there are other sets that have damage auras that also get knockback protection and resistance," you say, and you're right - the common theme of these three sets is that they're from the early days of the game when that sort of survivability compromise was considered okay. I don't think those three sets would have the knockback hole if they were added to the game today (or even at any time after Jack Emmert's departure from the development team) and there really isn't a reason for it to be there today.

[macskull]

10 minutes ago, CrimsonOne said:

On a side note. My team had a Kin who was hitting me with Increase Density as well, which also adds a Mag 10 KB for 60 seconds, which can stack, and I know they stacked that on me a few times, and yet I still got knocked on my butt. So it all boils down to that Knockback Resistance that is not attainable unless it is coded into the build.  

Was ID getting cast on you as the primary target or were you just in the AoE of the buff? ID is weird because while its smashing and energy resistance are given to every teammate hit by the AoE, only the target actually gets the status protection and KB protection.

[CrimsonOne]

1 minute ago, macskull said:

Was ID getting cast on you as the primary target or were you just in the AoE of the buff? ID is weird because while its smashing and energy resistance are given to every teammate hit by the AoE, only the target actually gets the status protection and KB protection.

I was the main target of the ID once I started the Recluse butt bounce. 😃

[EverStryke]

The problem should be fixed

[macskull]

Just now, CrimsonOne said:

I was the main target of the ID once I started the Recluse butt bounce. 😃

For what it's worth based on your screenshot it looks like you were getting hit by his Suppression power which does mag 40 knockback.

[CrimsonOne]

5 minutes ago, macskull said:

For what it's worth based on your screenshot it looks like you were getting hit by his Suppression power which does mag 40 knockback.

If only I had resistance 😃

[Hyperstrike]

13 hours ago, EverStryke said:

If he's got grounded and he's got four or five knock-back protection iOS...

 

There's nothing contributing to knock back. Simply put it's exactly the opposite which is what he was trying to say.

Read Grounded's description again.

The protection ONLY applies when fully planeted on the ground.

So, during things like Spring Attack or Lightning Rod, you effectively have NO KB protection whatsoever.

[EverStryke]

5 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Read Grounded's description again.

The protection ONLY applies when fully planeted on the ground.

So, during things like Spring Attack or Lightning Rod, you effectively have NO KB protection whatsoever.

He's aware. And also clearly stated neither of those things were being used while being mindful of staying firmly planted to the ground.

[Hyperstrike]

Also please remember that, at least while the Red Tower is up, his KB ability is buffed.
I'd have to use a power scanner in-game, but it may be that he's exceeding your KB Protection.
Not by a lot.  But even a little is going to send you flying.
And since you have no KB Resistance...

It's kinda like the difference between Defense and Damage Resistance.

One basically sets a bar that you have to surpass.  If it's surpassed, you get it ALL in the teeth.
The other basically reduces anything that gets past the first stat.
 

[EverStryke]

Just now, Hyperstrike said:

Also please remember that, at least while the Red Tower is up, his KB ability is buffed.
I'd have to use a power scanner in-game, but it may be that he's exceeding your KB Protection.
Not by a lot.  But even a little is going to send you flying.
And since you have no KB Resistance...

It's kinda like the difference between Defense and Damage Resistance.

One basically sets a bar that you have to surpass.  If it's surpassed, you get it ALL in the teeth.
The other basically reduces anything that gets past the first stat.
 

The red tower does act as a knock-back for recluse.

 

During testing when you exceeded 40 you tended to stay on the ground.

 

Which means if you want to tank him like a normal tank with electric dark or fire tankers you need to almost have a dedicated kin spamming increase density.

 

This is generally not something that you're going to have happened.

 

It would be nice.

[Hyperstrike]

Just now, EverStryke said:

The red tower does act as a knock-back for recluse.

 

During testing when you exceeded 40 you tended to stay on the ground.

 

Which means if you want to tank him like a normal tank with electric dark or fire tankers you need to almost have a dedicated kin spamming increase density.

 

This is generally not something that you're going to have happened.

 

It would be nice.

Sounds like a job for HoverTank or JetpackTank then.

 

[EverStryke]

5 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Sounds like a job for HoverTank or JetpackTank then.

 

That s*** is not tanking. You should be able to stand there. Hover tanking is for pussies.

[Steampunkette]

Just now, EverStryke said:

That s*** is not tanking. You should be able to stand there. Hover tanking is for pussies.

Good thing a pussy can take a pounding, then!

[DSorrow]

16 hours ago, CrimsonOne said:

Following the logic from the screenshots above, KB Protection 10.0 + KB Resistance 1.0% is somehow greater than KB Protection 19.6 + KB Resistance 100% ... Weird! I know there is more going on here, but you see my point.

If I'm not all wrong, KB works according to the following formula:

KB_Prot - (1 - KB_Res) * KB_Mag

If the value becomes negative, you'll be knocked down or back depending on how far into the negatives you go. With 99% KB Resistance, basically any attempt to KB you is negated with negligible protection needed as the KB_Mag of incoming attacks is barely higher than 0. Note that the number displayed in Combat Attributes is not Knockback Resistance, but Knockback distance (= 100% - Knockback Resistance), .

 

In the specific case of Lord Recluse and Suppression (KB_Mag = 40, it seems), substitute the following values into the formula:

• KB_Prot = 19.6
• KB_Res = 0
• KB_Mag = 40

And you get your KB value 19.6 - (1 - 0) * 40 = -20.4, enough to send you bouncing around like a basket ball. For an Invulnerability Tanker with the same KB_Prot, you'd be looking at 19.6 - (1 - 0.99) * 40 = 19.2 or nowhere near the negatives.

[EverStryke]

22 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Good thing a pussy can take a pounding, then!

Actually can't beat that logic

[EverStryke]

Some alternative solutions to the issue regarding our beloved fire, dark and electric armor sets are the following...

 

1 (and the simplest solution)

 

Reduce Lord Recluses Suppression, or base KB/KD value to only 20.

 

This allows players to be capable of designing a tank that at least has the ability to not get knocked around like a tennis ball, if they are dedicated enough.

 

2.

 

Add KB Resistance to the energy shielding of the armor sets we are discussing.

 

3.

 

Add KB resistance to support shielding (Thermal, Ice Dom, Sonic, Force Field, Increase Density)

 

This allows for players to combat the issue in a smart and effective way.

 

4.

 

Add KB resistance to acrobatics.

 

With KB Protection IOs, no one uses Acrobatics anyways. So adding this value highlights this power as a game changer for fire, dark and electric tanks in a big way.

 

In closing, simply doing a combination of some/all of the discussed things will allow for a better quality of life for our tanks/brutes/scrappers.

 

Happy Tanks = Happy Teams!!!

 

Make tanks great again!

Edited September 4, 2019 by EverStryke

[GM Tempest]

Keep it civil, people. 

[EverStryke]

Just now, CR Tempest said:

Keep it civil, people. 

No one is being Uncivil...

 

Actually having. Nice open conversation.

 

Glad you dropped in.

 

I sent GM Jimmy a message to see if we can escalate some of these ideas up to the dev team for review for future updates.

 

These are issues long overdue for changes.

 

Thanks for dropping in!