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Glacier Peak
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Posts posted by Glacier Peak
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3 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:
I am confident I am not only speaking for myself when I read all this praise for being able to move SOOO much faster and I say... So? Do people really blow slots on travel to fly super fast with all of the tport options? The speed bump is nice, no doubt. But nice enough to redo a build or spend extra power slots on? Ehhhh.
You can answer your own question (and share it with us) by going on to the Beta server and test it out.
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5 minutes ago, Sovera said:
I may be missing something, but your costs seem different than what I have.
I've been saying that EM has too high a costs for something that is meant to be on all the time. Bopper said EM's costs will be lower but he probably has insider knowledge. I did notice there have been some small patches without patch notes, but this is from the PTS.
Thank you for checking my numbers! I fixed my post.
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3 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:
Endurance? You mean universal travel as that's what it takes as well as defensive and flight sets.
Yes, thank you for the correction.
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18 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:
KB protect is nice, but not for that high a cost, and it can be gained by IOs. Most ATs who are susceptible to immobilize don't care much about getting immobilized.
I'm mostly thinking of my blaster here. The minor save vs Hold in Acrobatics is useful to them. EM is not in its current form. Especially when I can't slot it with anything useful because I need to put two end reductions into it so I can keep it on... tho why would I? There are no flight control issues when hovering.
I am confused, are you comparing your current build on Live to one on Beta and finding these discrepancies? If you took Acrobatics on your blaster on Live, wouldn't you still have in on your character on the beta? Are you choosing between a power you have and a power you don't have?
As for slotting, it takes all defensive, flight, and universal travel sets.
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Masterminds are able to continue utilizing the Evasive Maneuvers defense buff even while in combat. As long as the player doesn't use their attacks (single target, cone, AoEs) and relies only on their Mastermind Pet commands, they can effectively keep the 17.72% defense buff to ALL (positional and typed) while in combat.
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38 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:
I am trying to understand the logic behind some of the new powers. On one level I appreciate making the pools a little more enticing, especially the speed buffs. But...
For such a high endo cost, why does Evasive Maneuvers only grant defense out of combat? Flight control is not a problem when you are hovering, so there's no real benefit here that I can see. I also would have figured it would include the minor +2 Hold protect like Acrobatics has (otherwise all my solo blasters must keep their Leaping powers). As it is now, I'm not sure why I would take EM.
Similarly with Infiltration... I understand why that one is out of combat only since it's the travel power, but then why take the new "Stealth" toggle on top of it for such savage endo cost without any in-combat bonuses? I would want it if I could switch between the two for combat purpoes.
For Evasive Maneuvers, you can reduce the endurance cost of the power if it's 0.52/s cost is too steep for your character. It provides some status protection to immobilize and knockup.
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2 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:
So... it's more niche combat power
While this is your opinion, the fact is that Evasive Maneuvers provides clear benefits for its selection that work seamlessly with the other powers in the flight travel pool. Hover is the entry level power in the flight travel pool and it exists for "hovering and aerial combat. This power is much slower than Fly, but provides some Defense to all attacks, offers good air control, costs little Endurance, and has none of the penalties associated with Fly" (Power Description quote). It is recommended for use when fighting other flying enemies. By the numbers it provides a 4.05 magnitude buff to Fly on self and a 2.95% strength to all defense on self, which is enhanceable and it costs 0.19/s endurance. Fly is the primary travel power in the flight travel pool and provides the highest freedom of movement among all travel powers contrasted against its low level of active management from the player. "Fly allows you to travel large distances quickly. If you attack a target while this power is on, your flight speed will be temporarily reduced to Hover speed. Fly also increases your maximum flying speed by 50% and gives you access to the Afterburner power whilst it is active." It offers a 1.00 magnitude buff to fly on self and costs .46/s endurance. Finally, Evasive Maneuvers "provides increased flight control and flight speed in combat, along with resistance to knockback and protection against -Fly and Immobilization. Evasive Maneuvers also provides a small amount of Defense whilst you are not engaged in combat", it costs .52/s endurance and provides both in combat and out of combat bonuses. It may be easy to dismiss it's benefits by simply reading the patch notes, but it is worth trying to fly through an enemy mob on the way to a mission with your added +17.72% boost to ALL DEFENSE (positional and typed) and see if you get hit. Or if you just want to speed to the end of a 'collect item' mission and not get hit a bunch. All this to say that Evasive Maneuvers adds tangible benefits to it's set and gives players added utility in both combat and non-combat situations. This is its niche, its function rather.
Quotethat doesn't give you a buff to defense for reasons so that people can't stack it on top of existing defense buffs (because people would abuse it that way.)
Here is something of interest I found from testing - Masterminds are able to continue utilizing the Evasive Maneuvers defense buff even while in combat. As long as the player doesn't use their attacks (single target, cone, AoEs) and relies only on their Mastermind Pet commands, they can effectively keep the 17.72% defense buff to ALL (positional and typed) while in combat. To me, this appears unintentional - but by actually testing out a power in different use cases for reasons hopefully I provided input that the HC team can use to make the game better for everyone.
QuoteThis is (my opinion) a mostly useless change.
As @GM Impervium said so eloquently in another thread:
QuoteI'm sure they data mined that Afterburner wasn't being picked very often, but now they changed it to give benefits (but not the defense!) for anti-KB and rooting... which no one was actually asking for.
Evasive Maneuvers provides Res to (-Fly and Immobilize) and 138.40% resistance to knockup on self. That being said, absent of any evidence, I have to assume that you data mined player power choice in order to come up with your conclusion? Can you provide some of your data?
QuoteOh, and a bit of a +fly max speed buff, instead of the old always max speed ability it had.
Evasive Maneuvers applies a 14.32 MPH buff to Flight Speed.
QuoteThere is nothing compelling that would make me want to invest in another power choice here.
See comment above regarding opinions as feedback.
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6 minutes ago, Wavicle said:
A ring would be nice.
I want the beige?/yellow ring to change to the red ring we get from Long Range Teleport after a second use. 😁
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7 minutes ago, Troo said:
So would these powers not at their cap exceed 2 minutes?
Fly was at its speed cap and Fly with Afterburner was at its speed cap. There were separate entries in the table for both. Is that what you are asking?
Edit: I think I get what you were asking - I created three courses to illustrate routes that were outside the normal routines of players. They were meant to display outliers/extremes, meaning they are as far apart as feasible to show how even at extreme distance, it doesn't take very long to get there with the new speed caps.
As you pointed out, I said two minutes to travel anywhere, otherwise prove me wrong - so if you are asking to tailor your methodology to test, I would ask for proof that it takes longer than two minutes to travel to any mission objective or place of interest given all options on the table (in addition to the speed capped travel powers).
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35 minutes ago, Yuro said:
Don't have time to test right now, but has anyone tried Speed Phase with things like the vault doors in Safeguards and Mayhems, the destroyable wall in the Eden TF, and the destroyable wall in the 40+ villain mission (I think maybe this one?).
Yes, I have! Link to my findings below, but to answer your question it does not allow travel through vault doors or destroyable walls (prisoner walls even).
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2 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:
So you picked a distance that is only roughly 30 seconds away with flight's flaws maximize at 90s...
That's unbiased.
This forum poster’s opinion got me thinking how best to demonstrate speed similarities and disparities. I designed some simple testing to come up with evidence to do so, with a focus on extreme/outlier situations. I used the following methodology:
Three courses: Peregrine Island (Bottom to Top), Nerva Archipelago (Bottom to Top), Grandville (Blackline Helicopter to red windows at the top of W.E.B./Tangle Tower).
These locations were selected due to their simplicity, extreme distance, and direction – no missions take you to these locations, no badges to go to or from, no enemies to fight, and in the case of the Grandville course, no reason to get to the red window near the top of the tower (unless you want to jump off maybe?) – all that to say that they are outliers because the way this game exists on Homecoming, with the combination of using travel powers, tram lines or ferries, super group bases or long range teleport, LFG tab, or my favorite, either of the two mission teleporter powers – players ***are given the ability*** to get to anywhere in such a short amount of time that it doesn’t require more than two minutes to go from one place in the game, to anywhere else. I dare you to prove me wrong! (And please post your methodology so I can verify your results, just like you can test mine!). It is important to add that not all players are capable of utilizing the mechanics of the game to the fullest extent possible, due to any number of reasons, therefore, these numbers should be understood to be outliers, extreme examples, not examples of routine gameplay.
Each course is run three times with each power for an average. Course layouts are posted as images below. Each run is done with only the specific travel power active; i.e., Super Speed only, Super Jump only, Fly only. Results posted in the table below. Each power is at its cap during testing. For the Grandville course, the routes for Super Speed and Super Jump use whichever structure allows for quickest ascent – (north ward entrance to north ward lift 1, to the cabling all the way up was my fastest method for SS at least). One interesting thing on the Peregrine Island with Afterburner runs, I was able to activate Afterburner TWICE during these journeys.
If anything, this data should indicate how speed is just one aspect of travel utility – verticality is also an aspect that, in the case of the Grandville course, makes a lot of difference.
Power/Course
Peregrine Island (2.72 miles)
Nerva Archipelago (1.96 miles)
Grandville (0.83 miles)
Super Speed
1 minute, 22 seconds
59 seconds
1 minute, 35 seconds
Super Jump
1 minute, 36 seconds
1 minute, 10 seconds
58 seconds
Fly
1 minute, 50 seconds
1 minute, 20 seconds
34 seconds
Fly w/Afterburner
1 minute, 41 seconds
1 minute, 15 seconds
28 seconds
Spoiler
Lastly, this testing required approximately two hours of investment on the beta server to conduct. The next time a forum poster complains about someone’s testing, I strongly recommend they replicate the testing to see if their results are different (instead of just complaining about their testing). As an aside, during this testing I discovered that if you fly to the bottom of the map in Peregrine Island, it teleports you to the top of the northern islands in Talos Island, I had no idea it did that! Is that even intentional?
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I'm anxious to reproduce this myself, especially considering the implications if this bug can cause duplication. Hope we can nip it in the butt before the next build!
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46 minutes ago, Ifrits said:
Null the Gull doesn't give you the option to disable the pop up tray for Speed Phase like it does for Mystic Flight.
The shapeshift option for now.
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4 minutes ago, QuiJon said:
No, it depends on what you choose to look at as important.
Okay, this seems to me like an internal bias that prevents objective observation. I could just as easily choose to believe I live in the Matrix or that I am made of jelly beans. The point of this beta feedback thread is to provide the HC team with analysis based on actual testing. **Focused feedback**
Here is the link to General Feedback for the proposed changes from Issue 27, Page 2:
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6 minutes ago, QuiJon said:
A limitation that was always easily overcome by taking CJ, or getting free jump packs, or cheap jet packs. Face it the "vertical" limitations of SS were negated long ago this new mechanic just even further makes this "limitation" moot.
It is slower then SS and still even against Fly+AB currently on our servers normally would rank you second to the door behind speedsters on any given team. It has more then enough vertical to be useful on its own and over come most any limitations of maps and more then enough speed to beat fly+ab to a door. And on beta its speed has also been increased with ours so it likely will stay second no matter what.
Speed and leaping are getting perma buffs to their abilities and some utilities built in to make them even easier. Afterburner was provided to fliers because fly was considered to slow in comparison to the other travel powers. I do agree the investment to get the benefit was to high and love the more trim lined means to achieving the cap. However in raising the caps, and making it just as easy for speedsters and jumpers to reach their caps on a perma level, leaving afterburner as a click instead of the toggle it was is as a result pushing fly back down from what it originally gained when afterburner was added. Essentially your giving us afterburner for free (sort of) but making the existance of it moot by boosting everyone else back to the levels they used to exceed fly by before AB was added. Its a net nerf to fly.
Please, please, please just get on the beta server and test out your hypothesis. Run a mission using Super Speed, try a task force with a couple team mates and see how Fly with Afterburner works, try out Double Jump when moving across the Shadow Shard. You will most certainly change your beliefs/assumptions/opinions after trying out the changes.
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34 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:
I'm not missing that fact. But the new Afterburner will not be a permanent toggle, and the net result of all these changes has effectively widened the speed gap to where it was before Afterburner was initially created to mitigate it. I'm suggesting a compromise for it to be permanently toggleable if we have Hover, Fly, and Evasive Maneuvers in our builds. Speed and Leaping are going to be even faster than Flight than they already are without requiring a deep investment in their pools. It seems fair to me that people who do choose to invest in Flight should be able to narrow that gap even a little bit.
Looking at travel power speed caps, let me lay out the numbers:
On Live (MPH):
Running: 92.50
Leaping: 78.18 (92.50 using Take-off in conjunction with Mighty Leap)
Flying: 87.95
Teleport: ???
On Beta (MPH):
Running: 120.24
Leaping: 101.80 (110.39 using Take-off in conjunction with Mighty Leap)
Flying: 102.27 (using Afterburner)
Teleport: ???
As you can see, each travel power increased its speed cap with these proposed changes. If anyone has distance over time numbers for teleport, I would appreciate them.
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1 minute ago, QuiJon said:
Well this is where we disagree then. First off i am not sure i have ever had a door at the top of a building, accept maybe grandville and lets face it, SS have easy to get jet packs and such for those places anyway. But 99 percent of the doors in this game are at easily reachable locations in the maps it is just a matter of going from point a to b.
On live currently, even with AB running and hitting maybe 84-85mph i am routinely beat to doors by runners and jumpers. Just right now not by alot. Run speed is capped at 92.5 mph i am not sure on jump speed or how it is measured in its leaping mechanic. But they do beat fly still right now for sure even with AB running. The raise in speed caps takes making a huge investment in flight to keep up and lose, into a smaller investment in flight to not keep up and lose by ALOT more.
I can handle saying "oh well your 5 or 10 mph slower because you can just hit auto run" or whatever. It at least leaves a bit of flavor to the travel pools, but no i dont think that a 20-32 mph difference is fair. You are getting to the point where people will pick a travel power based on how it works vs what they want to use.
Example hero side of vertically located mission: Mission 7 (the finale) to the Graveyard Shift Story Arc provides players the option to enter the mission either through the ground floor or through the rooftop access. Yes, you can take the stairs.
Example red side of vertically located mission: well, probably half of all contact missions I would say...
Example gold side... you get the picture?
But I agree with your first point - all mission entrances are accessible.
As for your selection of travel power on Live, that is your discretion so I don't see a point in arguing one way or another. You can choose to take a power or not, boost set bonuses or not, get beat to the door or not, care about how fast you get to a mission or not... but your incorrect that it takes a huge investment to make the Flight changes on beta occur. It is not hard, you must see this if you got on the beta server and tested this.
And finally, you are right to assume that people will pick a travel power based on their preference. They may think about how the power works, they may compare and contrast the benefits versus the costs, they may even make a handy table to explain to folks who aren't willing or able to go to the beta server to test out the proposed changes to see how great these changes really are, but still provide their input on those changes...
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13 minutes ago, QuiJon said:
That is about what i cam out with on live as well. Right now live caps run speed at 92.5 percent. Meaning that even with all the investment required to cap fly speed currently, you really cant get closer then being 5mph slower then what is essentially no investment on a speedster. The new system might make it much easier to reach fly cap, which i am fine with. However essentially with the increase in run cap a speedster now achieves 120mph all the time with 1 run IO in swift, sprint, and 2 run IOs +5s in SS. So basicly the investment of 1 power choice and 1 additional slot when you figure swift and sprint and inherent. So now every flier will always be atleast 18 mph behind a speedster and on longer trips part of the way up to 32 mph behind. So these changes put us right back to being the slow asses we were when the game launched before they added AB to begin with.
The numbers I provided were from the Beta server. And your analysis of travel power parities are in line with what I have seen described by our HC team (though I strongly disagree with your conclusion, as myself and others have stated many times in this thread). SS is fastest, followed by SJ, the Fly. In the middle (or fastest) you have Teleport. They all come with different levels of investment to reach their maximum potential, but the powers themselves have inherent benefits and trade offs. Super Speed is the fastest in a straight line, SJ can come out on top (literally) if there is vertically in your direction of travel, Fly may even beat both of them if the destination is located at the top of a building. Teleport can do all the things with enough slotting and point and click action.
The speed caps for all travel powers have increased (Jump height remains the same, albeit double jump makes this moot). So how you came to conclude that these changes "brought us right back to being slow", I am at a loss.
Edit:
Further cost/benefit analysis on travel powers:
Super Speed has the highest cap (reached easily with minimum investment). It's trade off as a travel power is that it cannot travel vertically (short of the jump boost you get after 4 seconds of travel).
Super Jump allows for very fast horizontal and vertical travel, but slower than SS and it's verticality is limited to Double Jump's 30 second timer (though hitting a zone ceiling can be achieved with proper positioning).
Fly is third in terms of speed cap, but again, as a power it allows a player maximum freedom of movement. You can literally go anywhere with fly - the trade off is it not as fast as SS or SJ. UNLESS you activate the 30 second Afterburner ability, which then gives a player a faster than Super Jump speed cap level of movement.
Teleport is the fastest in my opinion and in terms of distance traveled over time, but it requires a player actively engage in the movement by clicking the location of the next jaunt.
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1 minute ago, GM Lines said:
It would be good to have testers keep hurling themselves at odd objects to see if anything behaves strangely.
One of my favorite pass times!
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Just now, Troo said:
got it.
..but can the train run through you? And if so, can you see inside the train?!
I did NPCs and cars but must have missed trying parked vehicles.
You can run through the train, and metaphysically speaking, yes the train can move through you.
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Just now, Troo said:
are you on live or beta? (so hoping this is it)
I updated my post to better explain, but yes Beta testing the new power Speed Phase.
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A Crash Course in Collison Detection!
Objects Speed Phase allows travel through:
Enemy targets
NPC targets
Friendly targets
Moving vehicles
Atlas Park Blimp
Paragon City Tram/Rail Car
Objects Speed Phase does not allow travel through:
Traffic Lights, Benches, Newspaper Stands, Light Poles, Bus Stops, cars, trees, fences (wooden and metal), ladders, dumpsters, fountains, information kiosks, rocks, bushes/shrubs, pallets, oil drums, shipping containers, City of Heroes pinball machine, forklift, blue box, desk, fire extinguisher, gargoyle, police cruiser, elevator doors, ferries, black market semi-truck, Mayhem or Safeguard Mission Vault door, any destructible objects in mayhem/safeguard missions, prisoner doors (oh man!), Blackline helicopters, Rikti mothership shield in RWZ/Echo: RCS, or the Rikti ships outside Pocket D,
Edit: Created list for reference from testing.
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1 minute ago, chi1701 said:
I play triform, meaning im mainly in either nova or dwarf form only
Ah, well then you would normally just use those human-form shields for slot mules anyways. And you can still do so!
So it may not be a change you take advantage of with your described build, but perhaps you second or third build on your character can be human-form only and utilize the great resistance buffs from Light Form in conjunction with the shields and def boosts from Quantum Maneuvers.
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Just now, chi1701 said:
Shame, trying to pick interesting unique abilities for triform is becoming a joke, way to man wasted fillers.
Quantum Maneuvers still provides additional HUGE (13.04% def boost to ALL unenhanced!!!) defense and great air maneuverability for when you're in your Human form. What is not to like?
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Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)
in [Open Beta] Focused Feedback
Posted
Evasive Maneuvers can be used as a LotG slot mule. And Maneuvers is going to cost more endurance than EM based on what Jimmy said higher up in the thread. If you want active defense comparable to Maneuvers, just throw on a +def unique IO in to EM and call it a day.