nzer

The quoted patch notes seem to indicate the bug is that certain abilities with enhanceable resists were being affected by outside buffs when they shouldn't, not that damage buffs were improving resists. Is that a thing that was happening?

Uhm, no. Night widow can get it with 5 LotGs, a full Reactive Defense set in mind link, and three recharge IOs in hasten, whereas a fort gets it at roughly the same time as perma hasten. One takes ~50 mil, the other takes 500+ mil. They both get it, but one gets it at level ~32 with minimal investment, and the other only gets it with a fully purpled endgame build. What you're suggesting, on the other hand, would allow night widows to get it with a standard endgame build, but prevent forts from ever getting it. Something's definitely unintended here, but I don't think it's that defense/tohit IO sets with recharge reduction affect the recharge of mind link. Again, IOs were added in issue 9, VEATs were added in issue 12, and the game shut down during issue 23. What you're calling an "oversight" could have been fixed before VEATs shipped or at any point in the four years after they shipped, and it wasn't. Frankly, there's no reason for mind link not to take recharge enhancements directly. Farsight, the exact same buff but stronger, can be perma'd without any global recharge at all.

If you mean forts and night widows, the difference in base recharge makes it significantly easier to perma on a night widow than on a fort. IOs predate VEATs, so I'm not sure why you think this.

As far as I know recharge enhancements do affect Mind Link, you just can't directly slot recharge IOs. Defense sets with recharge and hami-Os will both work. Edit: It just occurred to me you probably want it "fixed" so recharge from enhancements doesn't affect it at all. Personally, I don't see a lot of value in restricting perma Mind Link to 800+ mil builds.

You and @Vanden have made a pretty convincing case for recovery set bonuses being undertuned, so I think the logical next step here is making some proof of concept builds to explore exactly how larger recovery set bonuses would be leveraged. In addition to @MunkiLord's questions, I would ask: Are there common slotting patterns that can be easily modified to grab additional recovery, and what are the tradeoffs? In what situations, if any, would stacking recovery set bonuses become a viable replacement for Ageless? Does an across the board gain in recovery meaningfully affect the player's resilience to end/rec debuffs? (This is actually a valid concern @Infinitum, though I expect the answer is no)

I'm trying to get you to make a more substantive argument than "buffing recovery set bonuses breaks the endurance economy because I say so," because you don't seem to realize that isn't compelling to anyone who doesn't already agree with you. God forbid we actually, you know, discuss, rather than just shouting at each other.

Good, keep going. How does the ~0.3 end/sec most builds would gain from this change break the gameplay dynamic of end/rec debuffs?

Uh... you realize there's no functional difference between the blue bar barely moving and the blue bar not moving, right? Adding recovery to a build that's already self-sufficient doesn't change its effectiveness at all.

Nowhere in this thread has anyone provided an example of how the extra recovery would allow them to slot differently. What you quoted doesn't say endurance issues should just go away, but I understand how you could misinterpret it as saying that.

Your "explanations" have consisted of nothing more than you saying "this will break things" over and over, without explaining precisely how it breaks things. All endgame builds, per you, currently build to be self-sustainable. If recovery set bonuses were to double, what adjustments could the average endgame build make to take advantage of that? Specifically, the Warshade build you mentioned would gain 0.375 end/sec from the proposed buff. What changes would you be able to make in that build to take advantage of that extra endurance, and how would those changes cause the build to be broken? I'd bet all it allows you to do is drop a slot or two from health/stamina, or swap out a recovery set bonus for something slightly better, neither of which seems broken to me. The absolute most I could see these changes doing is making a build more able to exemplar by allowing it to replace Ageless with recovery set bonuses, which actually sounds like an improvement over what we have now. If you want to make the case that this buff would break something, you have to actually make the case.

By all means, explain how. Explain in more detail than "it breaks the game," because that's all you've said so far. What builds would suddenly become broken if recovery set bonuses were twice as powerful as they are now?

You should go back and reread, because that's not what was said.

Recovery set bonuses are an almost negligibly small part of that picture, and thinking buffing them to the level suggested would somehow render the entire endurance system meaningless requires complete ignorance of exactly how small the numbers in question are. You think an extra ~0.2 end/sec on builds that don't specifically slot for it is somehow game breaking? I don't really know how else to say it, except to point out that the panacea proc, itself not a large portion of a full build's recovery, is worth more than five instances of the largest recovery set bonus. For comparison, five instances of the largest recharge set bonus is nearly equivalent to a 50+5 recharge IO in every single power.

I'm noticing a trend in this thread of posting cute pictures in lieu of substantive arguments. Curious that it's only happening on one side of the discussion.

No, you're mistakenly conflating distinct points. Recovery set bonuses are undertuned, and because of that they are never a consideration in the build process. That's something that could reasonably be considered a problem. If increasing recovery set bonuses such that they're not undertuned causes an overabundance of endurance generation, that's something that could also reasonably be considered a problem. The fact that solving the first problem causes another doesn't mean the first problem isn't a problem, it means there are two distinct problems, one of which is hiding the other. In a properly balanced system we would neither have undertuned recovery set bonuses nor an overabundance of endurance generation. Are you trying to argue that scenario is fundamentally impossible? Because you'd be wrong.

Hold my beer, I'm going in: Recovery set bonuses are currently undertuned relative to similar set bonuses, and because of that are never a consideration in the build process. Nope, looks like I can talk about recovery bonuses and their effects without mentioning other methods of gaining endurance.

Did I say end management is hard? Why on earth are you talking about Panacea and Performance Shifter when the discussion is about recovery set bonuses? You do realize that of the 2.02 net end/sec this build generates only 0.15 of it comes from recovery set bonuses, right? I'm not even taking a side, I don't care about recovery set bonuses. I came to this thread to reword an obtuse analogy, and then to ask for clarification on the numbers you posted because they seemed to agree with @Vanden's assessment that recovery set bonuses are undertuned rather than refute it, and now you're ranting at me about how much end your build generates as if I've taken a side in some holy war. Is completely ignoring what people say fun for you? Combat Jumping isn't a good example of a cheap toggle in the context of this discussion, as at 0.07 end/sec it is almost always the cheapest toggle in a build by a significant margin. Hover, which is also usually the cheapest toggle in a build, costs nearly three times as much, and at 0.19 end/sec it is, in fact, not fully paid for by the 0.15 end/sec your MM build gets from recovery set bonuses. Tell me, is Hover not considered a cheap toggle?

I'm confused, why would the total ever be different? Killing things slower doesn't mean you're killing fewer things, you should be getting exactly the same inf from a 10 minute clear as a 4 minute clear.

@Redlynne, maybe I'm misreading something, but those numbers seem almost comically small to me. 5.85% max end and 0.15 end/sec doesn't offset even a single cheap toggle.

I think a better way to say this is that after two minutes the largest recovery set bonus won't even have paid for a single use of a T2 blast, which with a proper build can be cast something like 15 times a minute.

2915 +4x8 should be ~50 mil per run IIRC. Not sure why you're coming away with less than that. Also just FYI, the other level shifts only apply in incarnate content, they won't work in AE. The +1 from alpha is all you get.

This is my thugs/storm build. Not exactly what you're looking for, but hopefully a good starting point; you should really only have to modify the pet slotting. Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.1 https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer Click this DataLink to open the build! Static Shot: Level 50 Natural Mastermind Primary Power Set: Thugs Secondary Power Set: Storm Summoning Power Pool: Flight Power Pool: Leadership Power Pool: Speed Power Pool: Fighting Ancillary Pool: Heat Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Call Thugs -- SprMarofS-Acc/EndRdx(A), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(3), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg(5), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7) Level 1: Gale -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A) Level 2: O2 Boost -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(7), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(9), Prv-Heal/Rchg(9), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(11), Prv-Absorb%(11) Level 4: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(15) Level 6: Equip Thugs -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 8: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(15) Level 10: Steamy Mist -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(17), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(17), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(19), RedFrt-EndRdx(19), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(21) Level 12: Call Enforcer -- SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprMarofS-Dmg(21), Empty(23), Empty(23), Empty(25), TchofLadG-%Dam(25) Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27) Level 16: Freezing Rain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27), Ann-ResDeb%(29) Level 18: Gang War -- ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(A), SvrRgh-PetResDam(29), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(31), EdcoftheM-PetDef(31) Level 20: Kick -- Empty(A) Level 22: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(31) Level 24: Weave -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(33), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(33), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(33), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(34), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(34) Level 26: Call Bruiser -- SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMarofS-Dmg/EndRdx(34), SlbAll-Dmg/EndRdx(36), SlbAll-Build%(36), ExpStr-Dam%(36), SlbAll-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37) Level 28: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 30: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(37), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(37), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(39), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(39), GssSynFr--Build%(39) Level 32: Upgrade Equipment -- EndRdx-I(A) Level 35: Tornado -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), SlbAll-Dmg/Rchg(40), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), AchHee-ResDeb%(42), FrcFdb-Rechg%(42) Level 38: Lightning Storm -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Apc-Acc/Rchg(43), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(43), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(45) Level 41: Fire Blast -- EntChs-Acc/Dmg(A), EntChs-Dmg/EndRdx(45), EntChs-Dmg/Rchg(45), EntChs-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), EntChs-Heal%(46) Level 44: Fire Ball -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Rgn-Dmg(46), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(48), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(50) Level 47: Bonfire -- OvrFrc-Dam/KB(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(50), RechRdx-I(50) Level 49: Vengeance -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A) Level 1: Supremacy Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I(A) Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(13) Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(13) Level 0: Portal Jockey Level 0: The Atlas Medallion Level 0: Task Force Commander Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve Level 50: Musculature Radial Paragon ------------

Not proccing a 5 second BU when summoning one of your pets is a huge nerf to MMs in PvP? If it was the intended effect, why didn't the enhancement text reflect that?

That's exactly what they're doing, a dev announced it in the thread TheSpiritFox linked and it's now up on the beta server. Follow forces henchmen to not attack for 10 seconds, so yes, the follow is the problem.

I don't think they mean more than one copy of the proc, just other knockback enhancements. Then this conversation is a non-starter.