summers

I agree, but I think the whole IO discussion (and its accompanying Incarnate talk) are perhaps outside of the purview of this thread. If it helps, my quick comment on that is that Force Field is the iconic set for needing help; it's a one trick pony powerset and something like adding a bit of absorb to their shields would go a long way. For other sets that provide shields they generally provide a package of benefits which combined are almost universally loved on teams.

I should add that if this change goes through, I'm not going to be personally upset, I'll just quietly roll all of my new characters as Tanks, and Brutes will be a distant memory. Tankers are going to deal only slightly less single target damage than Brutes, but more importantly in AOE (which most of the game is), they will deal more due to much larger AOEs and target caps. They will have a big boost to the leveling experience - more damage, better AOEs and 120 endurance goes a long way. They're also a heap tougher at low levels. I am not going to expend a lot of time in here since it seems that my vision of a Tanker isn't shared by development, I am just sad to see that the two ATs are very much being rolled together and the pendulum is, with current proposals, completely in the Tankers favour.

Protecting them from the enemy of course 🙂 If the Brute can adequately protect the team, that also makes all the defence/resist shields from support classes useless, doesn't it? But, they aren't useless, just like a SR giving extra defence to the team, or Invulnerability giving resistance, isn't useless. When those become meaningless, so do support. As for bigger AOEs, I like the idea of a bigger taunt aura as that fits the vision of protecting the team. As for gigantic cone attacks, I just see this trampling over the damage that a Brute has. Ultimately, convergence along a damage axis just reduces the individuality of ATs, and I think there's a point where you could simply delete one and call it a day. I'd much rather we collectively find a point of difference between ATs instead of making Tankers more like Brutes.

I think they are doing it the wrong way - they are converging the two ATs on the wrong axis (damage). I'd much rather see the Tanker become better at what the AT is all about - protecting the team. Ideas would be that they provide some kind of support based on their primary - an invulnerability Tanker increases resistances, Willpower regeneration, etc. Those suggestions are more about vision, not strictly that it has to be this way, but that it maintains the Tankers concept without just blending them with Brute until you might as well delete one of the two ATs.

In my opinion, if you wanted a Tanker that does more damage, play a Brute. These changes just converge the two ATs until Tanker is probably better at almost everything.

Will taunt auras get their target caps upped? What will happen, for instance, to Against All Odds or Rise To The Challenge? Will they go up to 16 targets?

What happens to procs with the +range buff? Is it like global recharge which doesn't affect their proc rate, and it could turn Tankers into AOE proc monsters?

Let's go for an attention grabbing headline. Super Strength: Brutes need not apply. This post incorporates information from both the Tanker experimental updates and the Rage experimental updates. Disclosure: My conflict of interest is that I play a SS/Fire Brute, who doesn't farm. She has almost precisely 90% resistance to Smashing/Lethal, and not only is this a straight up nerf to her, but the Tanker proposals means you should just not play Super Strength on a Brute. You should reroll. Damage Taken Let's start with how tough my Super Strength/Fire Brute is going to be post crash. I'll assume double stacked Rage of course, since this is now the only crash effect, and if I don't double stack Rage, her damage is much lower. Presently, she runs at about 40% melee defence and 90% Smashing/Lethal resists. The below table shows what this changes to during a crash: Status Defence Resist % taken No Crash 40% 90% 1.00% Live - Crash 20% 90% 3.00% Proposed - Crash 30% 70% 6.00% From this chart I was taking triple damage in a crash from the -20% defence, and the proposed changes show I'll instead be taking six times the amount of damage. The crash is twice as bad for my survivability as before. So, why should Brutes not apply? Tankers have some big numbers - really big. It's very feasibly for Tankers (especially Invulnerability) to build to 110% Smashing/Lethal resists on a resistance based set and feel pretty good about it. Likewise, a Super Reflex Tanker can get to 55% defence and shrug off the -defence crash. All in all, this feels like it's going to hurt Brutes more than Tankers. There's also a second, minor note: It's more expensive for inspirations to cover the crash. Previously, two Luck (12.5% defence each) inspirations more than covered the defence crash, while now you'll need 1 Luck (12.5% defence)and two Sturdy (10% resistance each). Damage Dealt This is going to be more about the Tanker changes, but it all falls under the heading of why Super Strength is going to be much, much worse for Brutes than it will be for Tankers. I'll consider the capstone power, Foot Stomp, which I feel is a fair power to consider as it is so key to Super Strength's viability. I've made the following assumptions: The Brute is at 70% Fury (140% damage bonus). Both parties have 100% damage enhancements. The comparison considers 1 enemy, 10 enemies, and 16 enemies. Some differences in the powers, per the Tanker proposals, will be: The Brute Foot Stomp hits 10 opponents maximum, while Tankers hit 16. The Brute Foot Stomp has a radius of 15', while Tankers radius is 20'. The difference means the Tanker's Foot Stomp hits 60% more enemies and has a 78% larger area of effect. One Stack of Rage: Status Base Damage Multiplier 1 enemy 10 enemies 16+ enemies Brute, One Rage Stack 59.22 4.20 248.72 2487.24 2487.24 Tanker, One Rage Stack 75.01 2.80 210.03 2100.28 3360.45 The Brute deals 18% more damage until they hit the 10 person cap. After that, it's quickly the Tankers game. The 5' radius increase shouldn't be underestimated - as above, it's a 78% increase in area of effect, and makes the target cap much more plausible. At the target cap for Tankers, they are dealing 35% more damage than the Brute. Two Stacks of Rage: Status Base Damage Multiplier 1 enemy 10 enemies 16+ enemies Brute, Two Rage Stacks 59.22 5.00 296.10 2961.00 2961.00 Tanker, Two Rage Stacks 75.01 3.60 270.04 2700.36 4320.58 Now, the difference is just under 10% more damage until they hit the target cap. At the target cap for Tankers, they are dealing 46% more damage than the Brute. Damage capped: ie: what if you travel with a Kinetics support character? The Brutes damage cap is 775%, or, +675% damage. The proposed Tanker damage cap is 600%, or, +500% damage. Status Base Damage Multiplier 1 enemy 10 enemies 16+ enemies Brute, damage capped 59.22 6.75 399.74 3997.35 3997.35 Tanker, damage capped 75.01 5.00 375.05 3750.50 6000.80 Now the difference shrinks even further. The Brute is only dealing about 6.5% more damage than the Tanker up until the target cap, and above this, the Tanker pulls ahead to be dealing 50% more damage than the Brute. Summary Personally, this is a straight up nerf to my Super Strength / Fiery Aura Brute. I get the choice of losing 80% damage/20% to hit by only running a single stack of Rage, or I my Rage crash is 6x worse instead of 3x worse. My Brute is not a fire farmer, she does standard content, and this dramatically lowers her survivability. For broader comparisons between Brutes and Tankers, the Brutes are much more adversely affected by the debuffs since they are far less capable of 'overcapping' the figures. A defence or resistance sufficiently overcapped can outright ignore the crash, and this is not a luxury many Brutes can have. But some Tankers do. As for damage? The higher base damage, radius and damage cap combined feels a bit overwhelming. The damage numbers between Brutes and Tankers tighten up a lot, with the Brutes slightly ahead until the target cap before the Tanker blasts ahead afterwards. On top of this, the radius means the level of control the Tanker exerts over the battlefield is dramatically better - their taunt auras are doubled in radius (+300% area), and their Foot Stomp knockdown is +5 feet (+78% area). This increased radius means their effects are simply more likely to hit more enemies, since a distant enemy might be missed by the Brute but hit by the Tanker - this once more pushes things in favour of the Tanker. My suggestion? If these go live, roll Tanker.

Thanks Cipher! And since I can't help myself, here's a few observations I found interesting... Most desirable T9 (Primary or Secondary) These are the least skippable T9s according to how people select their powers, and I've picked those >98%. Special note to Pendulum for Battle Axe which appeared twice; once for Brutes and again for Scrappers. Least desirable T9 (Primary or Secondary) These are the most skipped T9s out of the level 50s; for this selection, I'm showing those powers which were picked less than half of the time. Special note goes to Time Bomb which is the bottom three, claiming that spot with every support archetype that can play Traps: Defenders, Controllers and Corruptors! Least popular anywhere Here's the list of all powers taken less than 15% of the time. There's quite a few named Confront, and a few others that do the same thing but with different names. I think it's broken badge Has two eligible: 1. Martial Combat - Reach For The Limit, with 990 examples of it and 193.74% of all Blasters taking it! Assuming that it grants the power twice (per the customisation screen), there's more like 96.87%. 2. Secondaries, in general. Somehow, not all level 50s have their Level 1 Secondary. For instance, there's a Tactical Arrow Blaster without their T1. Your guess is as good as mine... You might be doing it wrong badge... A tongue in cheek poke at the 'When you think someone is playing their AT wrong' thread located here... (caution, it's flamey) ...there's just a few Stalkers who somehow missed taking their assassinate power at level 50. There are: These aren't the only exceptions though. Here's the list of Tanker Defence powers that were taken 100% of the time - if it's not on the list, there's someone at 50 without it. That means there's Willpower Tankers without Rise to the Challenge (98.65%), or Invulnerability Tankers without Invincibility (98.25%) Blaster Quirks... Here's some unusual observations: There's not a single Blaster primary power taken 100% of the time. The closest is Disintegrate, with 99.1% of Blasters taking it. The least popular Blaster primary power is Scramble Thoughts, with a mere 18.61% of level 50 Blasters taking it. As per the earlier note, there are some T1 secondaries that were somehow skipped. I don't know how 100% of the Blasters don't have their T1 secondary. The least popular secondary power is Devices - Taser, which has a mere 15.03% of level 50 Blasters taking it. I wonder if the buffs will change this! Petless Masterminds... Just how many out there are skipping their T1, T2 or T3? Unfortunately we can't tell how many are skipping all of them, only how many skip them individually. T1: T2: T3: Most and least popular buff effects Here's the least popular (taken by less than 15%) of all Corruptors, Defenders, Controllers or Masterminds: And the most popular taken (100%, excluding forced choices which are the T1 secondary buffs from Corruptors, Controllers or Masterminds) It's interesting to note that not a single Corruptor power outside of their requisite T1s is seen on 100% of Corruptors at 50. And that's it! I hope you've enjoyed reading as much as I enjoyed looking through random facts! If you have any requests or queries please let me know!

Thanks for this great data! Here's some more analysis, and I hope it is correct as there are a number of small naming conventions that I've found which I am hoping I have resolved. Also, I apologise for the awful table, if a moderator knows how to stretch those columns out nicely please do so 🙂 The Wooden Spoon badge I have some good news if you want to make a 50 that no-one else has - there's quite a few choices! Since not a single one of these combinations have made it to 50, they each have a 0% success rate. I give the wooden spoon badge to Beast Mastery/Traps MM, since it has had the most attempts to get it started and therefore failed the most number of times. The Stand Alone badge This one I'm giving to the combination of powers that just a single person has hit 50 on, and it will be granted to the combination that has the most attempts to get there. Congratulations to Tanker: Bio Organic Armor / Broad Sword, who has a single level 50 out of 247 attempts! Runners up were: Blaster - Psychic Blast / Darkness Manipulation and Scrapper - Broad Sword - Fiery Aura The Not Stopping badge This one is a category I'm reserving for the archetypes that have the highest percentage likelihood of going all the way to 50. In a very tight race, congratulations to Brute - Radiation Melee / Fiery Aura, where 48.4% of all characters created hit the magical 50! A very close runner up was its fellow farming companion, Brute - Spines / Fiery Aura, where 48.0% of all characters created hit the 50! A good argument could be made that the total number of Spines/Fiery Aura characters means it should be #1. Here's the top 20:

Here's another interesting quirk Street Justice appears to be internally called "Brawling" for Brutes, while on Scrappers it is "Street Justice"

Here's some breakdowns you might find interesting: /Regeneration is the most popular secondary, with 41625 characters having this secondary. Fire Blast/ is the most popular Primary set, with 30219 carrying it as their primary. The most popular powerset of all, regardless of being primary or secondary, is Willpower, with 47913. The four most popular powersets (either primary or secondary) of all are: Willpower - 47913 Fiery Aura - 44945 Time Manipulation - 41731 Regeneration - 41625 The four least popular powersets (either primary or secondary) of all are: Plant Manipulation - 2464 Radioactive Assault - 2511 Icy Assault - 2680 Martial Assault - 2855 The four least popular primary powersets of all are: Traps - 881 Trick Arrow - 1138 Poison - 1542 Thermal Radiation - 1984 The four least popular secondary powersets of all are: Katana - 951 (Tankers only) Claws - 1186 (Tankers only) Sonic Debuff - 1276 (Controllers only) Martial Arts - 1370 (Tankers only) If you are looking to be a special snowflake, you can pick one of these and go from there, or you can aim for the rare unique combinations, which are: Defender - Trick Arrow/Rad - 3 Corruptor - Psychic Blast/Trick Arrow - 4 Defender - Trick Arrow/Energy Blast - 4 Corruptor - Dark Balast/Trick Arrow - 5 Defender - Trick Arrow/Electrical Blast - 5 The most popular combinations of powers are: Luminous Blast/Luminous Aura - 14452 Arachnos Soldier/Training and Gadgets - 14421 Umbral Blast/Umbral Aura - 13423 Brute - Spines/Fiery Aura - 12769 If you think Spines is popular, it might be interesting to know it is heavily concentrated in a single build: 12,769 Spines/Fire Brutes out of a total 24,083 Spines characters. Amongst Brutes, that's 12769 out of 17211 Spiney Brutes, with there being only 1027 Spines/Firey Aura Scrappers and a meager 60 Spines/Fiery Aura Stalkers.

Thank you for reconsidering some of the Martial Assault changes, I love that there is a set with kicks where the kicks are useful and it isn't just shuriken assault 🙂

Just some food for thought about soft capped defences and their effective equivalent resistances. The assumption is that there is no defence in the resistance set, and no resistance in the defence set. Some rounding occurs in the below: 45% defence, +0 enemies Chance to hit: 5% Effective resistance level: 90% (50% chance to hit, 90% resistance) 45% defence, +4 enemies Chance to hit: 7% Effective resistance level: 90% (70% chance to hit, 90% resistance) 45% defence, +4 AV Chance to hit: 10.5% Effective resistance level: 88.95% (95% chance to hit, 88.95% resistance) So far the ratio of effectiveness at damage mitigation has kept pace with the resistance set. What if we go to incarnate content at the soft cap? 45% defence, +0 enemies (incarnate) Chance to hit: 19% Effective resistance level: 70.31% (64% chance to hit, 70.31% resistance) 45% defence, +4 enemies (incarnate) Chance to hit: 26.6% Effective resistance level: 70.3% (89.6% chance to hit, 70.3% resistance) 45% defence, +4 AV (incarnate) Chance to hit: 39.9% Effective resistance level: 58% (95% chance to hit, 58% resistance) Whats the take away from this? At +0 minions, each point of defence below 45% is equivalent to dropping 2% resistance. At +4 Incarnate, each point of defence below 59% is equivalent to dropping 1.56% resistance. At +4 Incarnate AVs, each point of defence below 59% is equivalent to dropping 2.21% resistance. Since a lot of builds don't reach for the incarnate cap, I hope some of these numbers might assist in getting a better understanding of where things compare. A few other observations is that because the chance to hit is capped at each stage, there's only so bad that a defence can be before it no longer matters - it will always protect you against 5% of hits. Resistance for all practical purposes never stops getting worse. Additionally, against very challenging content, DDR and the soft cap is very important. If you have IOd your defences to 45%, 14% of white minion attacks will hit you in incarnate content and almost 20% of attacks will hit you from purple minions. If any of these have defence debuffs, you will crash quickly and hard. YMMV in groups, since you are probably buffed by party members, but solo it's just you.

I'm a bit sad that the martial set, which was only flimsily melee to begin with, is becoming even less so. I really hope you reconsider this, an okay ST attack is not breaking anything, while other sets seem to be getting this or even more?

Hello! Consume should be granting endurance drain protection however it isn't. It seems like this might have been a relatively recent change/bug as well. In the past, hitting multiple foes with Consume meant you were completely immune to drain, and could not be drained by Sappers and other nasties, but now that doesn't work anymore. Could you please look into this as it turned some missions from easy to very frustrating overnight! Thanks :)

Some of the hardest things for people to do is to resist putting 'their mark' on things. Super Strength is perhaps the iconic superhero set and the people that enjoy it like it the way it is. Any change to the set should be very critically reviewed as to whether it needs this change or whether someone just wants to tweak it to suit their own vision. I'm all in favour of dropping -defence (why does it even need this?) but I am not in favour of widespread changes to a set just because you can. Small adjustments here or there? Okay. Powerset redefining changes? No. Full disclosure: SS if my main and I do not want any significant changes.

I just wanted to thank the whole team who are tirelessly working to let us play our dream game. Thank you! You are all amazing :)

Hi GM ArachnosPhobia You don't know me, but you helped me with an enquiry today and you were excellent. Thank you to you and the team who are volunteering their time to make the experience the best it can be for the rest of us!

I... really like i25, and I'd rather stay on a server hosting this version