Bill Z Bubba

Show me your Werner rules ITF runs with your brutes.

That is obviously what he wants everyone to ignore.

100 * 16 = 1600. 120 * 10 = 1200. Who is doing more raw damage again?

So the hell what? Its single target damage is still greater. Awesome. That means something ONLY against AVs, Pylons and GMs. For the rest of the time, read vastly more of the time, the tank is dishing out more. And that should NEVER be the case since the tank is running with vastly more damage mitigation 100% of the time.

Horse manure. It drastically increased the tank's raw damage output in every area of the game where the number of enemies around the player is greater than the brute's aoe cap. Edit: Ooops, also when more enemies could be fit into the tank's now larger range for its aoes.

Only because someone decided it to be without taking into consideration at ALL of the actual outcome of such a change and its affect on archetype balance.

Can always move it over to here: But really... any discussion of game balance needs to take into account the "balance philosophy" of those in control and problems with that philosophy need to be pointed out.

I'm not a fan of cheating. I don't leverage AAO with monkeys while I fight pylons. But I absolutely did attempt to remain at the aggro cap when possible during the test runs for both the brute and the tank. And I did have sprint on for both and I did fight the same way with the same tactics throughout.

I do love me some pylon killing.

And his damage output will suffer for it, dropping him below the tank.

But yea, sure, I'll go get some pylon times with this combo. Shouldn't take more than an hour or so. Since I don't feel like working today anyway. 🙂

But since folks have asked. Missing is Office Mission Simulator by Galaxy Brain on Beta. Ran at +4/x8, clearing everything. Here's the tank build. Only difference for the brute is using brute AT IOs instead of tank AT IOs. | Copy & Paste this data into Mids Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1510;687;1374;HEX;| |78DA6594596B13511886CF341363B6365DD3DA355D93493B4DD41B3704ED629740A| |1EA8520616CC73418D292B4602F05D75B05FD055E78E3CF71BDF017747145C13A7E| |99F7350E642079CEBCE7DB734E72776722AFE7EF5D545AE472C9AA56F357ADF21DB| |BE2CF5985E29A922770C3AA14ED921590753F36F333F66DBB5CB5CDD50DD959FFF7| |DAC3DD9C5DB26D73B66C570ABB7851E195CDCD9239572A1636B643EE7A75CBB6D72| |3EE72D9B6B68AE54214363513798BCF6E15D7CC4B959D6D3BBFBAB953CAE7ACEAB6| |5DD9ED96320CF9CC44E54BAB15E8F8D59C4FA96C50352D908BA0BE54A3AEF46FE0B| |1EFE0F190E2E3285554AE362BF134C6D3F6697F40FB43F23318FA427E25259E0FF1| |FCBEF126578B24C914D86C9069309617F3095DCD495E3FF3FA1734578B2D826DD73| |4D7B6ED3AD8619026382FBE01F611482BB7E7B008416AC15ED4372C5A1839B430ED| |BAC8058911E55EF4A8F61BEBAAAB13F123D2570B62E92D679A5CFBEEB3E439F0C47| |9F202FABA22F15ADD413AAA35811C3189D3CEF9B4DFD75DBBE907E443F211987D4C| |3E0117255E27EAF375C650575F1BD90E66596F97F419672FF19AADF432C0BD2589D| |3C35E7A7EA3D68123F20F38E4900A736B96BA7BE1A3F5725E43AF60A349AE7ECEB9| |9F676859720C521BDC438C35C1307B1F9E84EFB8494E931970224B4EC2B745F28FF| |16C8CBD8136F1164CBD23DF83C607F223E893FA92F44DF2FCA778FE8D9FE0E42FF2| |2419C7CC74F14D73E669CE7C8AB39EEA2039D7A0D89AECD9A4F629A254865A86672| |0A5D7EFABD3A77BEE9F238F5AF62AF458D1E9209AE65AED85EA77546953B0DAF76A| |496807FF355DEB436F89017064901C024713E061C873FF9FE277483C239F83232FC| |0D1439CCDD11FE04BA35EBD6334F4966950B20DCAA906E57483128CD5FF659C15A9| |36CB69DEF2AC2DCFFAA667FD17A304E15E| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|

You do get that the brute BARELY won doing something that is the most common behavior in the entirety of CoH, right? Defeating spawns in missions. To go further, this same brute walked into an ITF and faceplanted because its mitigation simply can NOT handle the incoming damage in there, regardless of its damage output. Could this be corrected? Sure. At the cost of other aspects of the build.

There's a few more Minions and LTs in missions than AVs and Pylons. But sure. I already know that my claws tank is 30 seconds behind my claws brute. A whole whopping 30 seconds while still have 20something % more mitigation. (Which is probably not an accurate number since we all know that mitigation truth comes from damage taken.)

Shield depends on how many targets are in range. Bio doesn't care.

Some numbers.

Shield/EM tank vs EM/Shield Brute 5 runs each. Average clear all time for tank 502 seconds. Average clear all time for brute 462 seconds. So the brute is what? A whopping 8% faster? While the tank has: 21% more HP 24% more melee defense 26% more range and aoe defense 20% more SL DR 14% more FC DR 16% more EN DR But hey... the brute gets an extra .5% base damage thanks to the AT IO difference. Edit: Oh yea... and a bunch less DDR when both doublestack AD. 21% more mitigation vs 8% higher kill speed for this particular combo. And this is parity? Balance? Ok with the rest of yall? Cuz I think it's crap.

We've all said this for a long time. I no longer accept it without evidence.

I'm surprised by this whole post. If tanks were dead, why were there so many of them around compared to so many other ATs when they did the big data dump here on HC? It's not a "right set" issue. It's a "yes, it matters if an AT is made superfluous" issue. At least it matters to me. I'll have some numbers soon from the shield/em vs em/shield test. I'm sure there's some combo out there, maybe stone/staff, where the brute might win on mission clearing, but I'd put good money on that it's going to be within the same margin as the difference between the shield/em test and the claws/sr test. But I absolutely refuse to test with SOs. I don't have a SO on a single level 50 in my stable. Every last one of them is full of set IOs or basics where that would apply. And since I won't even play the game with SOs past lvl 32, maybe I could be talked into a nothing but basic IOs run for some combo. It's been mentioned before and it would be nice to find out... what percentage of level 50 characters have SOs slotted? Any SOs at all. I think we need this info.

I won't say why, but this makes sense to me as well. <.< >.>

Form of the body is a damage buff. Why wouldn't you use it, or buildup, or followup or rage when testing a set?

I, of course, agree but was told by quite of few fellow beta testers that not only was my test invalid because the builds were NOT identical but that it was also invalid because I was using an "outlier-edge-case" like claws.

My spreadsheet says I have 61 but I'm planning another great purge. On the plus side, I'm just about to crack 2000 vet lvls total and that doesn't include all the incarnated 50s I've already purged over time.

But here's the question that's gonna really bug me: Which is the more valid test? Using identical builds between ATs, or leveraging what one can per AT per build? For the claws/sr test, I intentionally lowered the tank's mitigation down to the brute's lvl which freed up room for other things as mentioned above. Or am I going about it all wrong and I should be testing at +0/x1 with nothing but SOs?

But an inv brute on SOs isn't nearly as tanky as an inv tank on SOs. And a properly IOed tank will have to use less slots/bonuses to achieve the same def/dr stats as the fully IOed brute while having more HP and able to convert the excess into damage output. Example: For testing purposes, I created an em/shield brute that has the exact same build as my shield/em tank here on live. (Swapping AT IOs, of course.) Sure, damage is nice, but the tank can handle max diff and buffed Cimerorans while the brute folded in the first large room at standard max diff because it's not even softcapped to melee. The changes necessary to get that brute to at least the softcap is going to mean less damres to go with its lower HP and no clue what kind of damage hit it will take. Here's the really sad part... initial testing between the two on beta with Galaxy Brain's Office Mission Sim is showing nearly identical clear-all times at max diff. Which, I guess, is better than when I did this test with my claws/sr scrapper-brute-tank and the tank did better than the brute.