FUBARczar

it's true, but for some reason I always thought that Barrier was kind of crazy with +Def and +Res in one, my first instinct is that those would have been separated.

yeah this week I've been running +4/8 TFs with the "AT Only Powers" setting. I think it works well. It requires more teamwork. You are still super yet vulnerable. If only they added a setting "No Incarnate Powers," or at the very least toned down Destiny and Judgement. And more settings in general would be nice.

um nope, not even close, what I said was that actually the ATs seem be decently balanced, except for Doms and Sentinels coming in behind Tanks.

IDK I thought held-agains were always a novelty. When SoAs came out, they were generally viewed as superior. Totally anecdotally, but given the choice I would much rather have an SoA join the team than a HEAT.

yeah the T1-3 control set powers need to be brought into alignment more, and it is pretty much just the animation times.

honestly curious, what are some of the extreme cases (besides TW/Bio)? Well the post that was linked listed the results for 4man, same AT runs, but the results are similar for Duos and Trios. To me the results show some concept of balance. 4-man Blasters, Corruptors, Defenders, Stalkers, Scrappers (non-TW), and Tanks all finish within a 2 minute 24 second window from 23:59 to 26:23. They are all capable of performing well. It is a setting where each AT performs to all of its own strengths and weaknesses, with out another AT covering its weaknesses.

Wow, just wow... I didn't say that Blasters have the ability to CC like a Dom, or anywhere close, I only said that they have such powers which can be proc'd the same as a Dom. It was about damage not about actual CC. It was about the ability to proc is a wash, is equal between the ATs, because you listed it as an advantage for Doms. As if doms are the onlu ATs that can proc their powers... What I said was one of the best Blapper sets (Temp. Manip.) is often played at range only, meaning players don't use the melee attacks. I said the set is strong for the Blapper playstyle and that people still don't utilize it's strengths, it's full potential, it's melee attacks. I did not say that blasters playing at range are Blappers. From my extensive in-game testing Doms clear more slowly than all but Sentinels (excluding MMs, cause I don't play them enough to make a proper somparison), using those real in-game tests Doms seem in need of a slight boost to catch up with the pack (every other AT (except Sents and MMs)). Also Corruptors in my experience are on par with Scrappers, and exceed every AT except Brutes and Blasters. I am not undervaluing the CC. CC is for staying alive not clearing. Doms can survive well enough for a squishy, I think everything is fine except slight underperformance in DPS whether that is because of lack of damage, lack of buffs or lack of debuffs. Considering those three options I think a modicum of damage would be the easiest. I only suggested a tiny bump of .075 in Melee and .05 in range damage. Now you are just being flippant and surly.

No I meant that Blasters sans their Nukes do more AoE damage than Dominators, it wasn't a typo. Procs work well for a lot of powers, and several blaster sets gave Holds, CC powers, and so on, so yes it is still a wash. Only certain sets have Max DPS including melee attacks, and many Blasters skip them for the safety of range w/o much of a hit. For instance I often see one of the best blapper secondaries (Temporal Manipulation) being played at range only. A blaster will still do significantly more damage than a Dominator if Dominators received the same damage modifiers (a small bump) in reverse as I said here

Not necessarily, but it is more than a coincidence when they came out with CoV that it had the exact same number of basic ATs. By process of elimination yes it does. That's why it has been explicitly stated elsewhere that MMs and Controllers are analogous, that they are interchangeable on a team, they serve the same role, that they have more similar playstyles to one another than to any other AT.

Blasters can also control the field a lot, certainly it's typically with softer controls such as slows, KDs, damage, etc. But don't sell Blasters short in their abilities. Even without the Nuke, blasters still have more AoE damage than Dominators. Blasters can Proc too, so that's a complete wash. Blasters are not Mez'd 100% of the time, and when they take damage they can rebound their health faster, and also maintain their attack longer, more aggressively. And have a full max DPS attack chain from range. This is also one reason Doms got mez protection, b/c for max effectiveness they need to play in melee range, which is riskier.

I started playing before the CoV release. And have played stalkers since CoV went live. Hmm all of the Stalkers I have played to 50: (Live) EM/SR, Spines/WP, Elec/Ninja, Claws/EA, Spine/Elec, StJ/Ice, Staff/WP (HC) Rad/SD, Psi/Bio, Psi/Rad, Elec/Fire, DM/Ice, Staff/Ice, Staff/WP(2), Ice/Rad, Savage/DA, StJ/Inv, Rad/DA Thanks for being so dismissive, but what I said and what you said are not mutually exclusive. My SG and other SGs I played with regularly did not have players like you describe above. You are describing the low-end early stalker players, and I am describing mid to higher level players. I remember specifically many people saying wow, after teaming with my Spine/WP and my Elec/Ninja specifically, I didn't know Stalkers were that good, or that Stalkers could do AoE, etc. etc. LOL The only premise for this, is the comparison of AS and Snipes. Pretty much everything else is Scrapper. So 5% Blaster b/c of AS/Snipe, 15% unique b/c of Hide, 80% Scrapper. You realize that Scrappers are about Burst and sustained damage similar to Blasters right? A huge difference is the amount of damage that Stalkers and Scrappers can take compared to Blasters, and being melee, and basically sharing inherents, and sharing primaries, and sharing secondaries, and sharing similar capabilities, and similar roles, and so on. But Sure Stalkers really are villain Blasters, ok you are right. Wow I better quote and comment and every little thing you say, otherwise you'll accuse me of mincing words. Look here you say, "I didn't compare AS to a nuke" and the you say, "I labled it a SINGLE TARGET nuke" in the same sentence. So you didn't compare AS to a nuke (ST or not), but you did and even "labled it a SINGLE TARGET nuke." Honestly it's difficult to discuss things with you when you contradict yourself in the same sentence. But just to be clear you clearly did compare AS to a nuke, "One could also make the argument that Assassin's Strike is similar to a ST nuke, or a melee snipe..." So I guess you were also saying that a Blasters' Snipe is similar to an ST Nuke. I could be wrong, but I think you may be the first person to make such a comparison.

I think this has gotten away from what was said. No one has advocated Blaster level damage. Even if dominators received the same damage modifiers in reverse, so for Doms that would be 1.125 for melee and 1.0 for ranged (current modifiers 1.05 Melee and 0.95 Ranged), they would not do blaster level damage for several reasons: 1) Blaster's inherent Defiance adds significant damage boost. 2) Blasters get Build Up and Aim. 3) Dominators lack a full attack chain of melee attacks. 4) Dominators lack Nukes, and Blaster level AoE in general.

Stalkers have always played like scrappers, although many players got stuck in AS mode. Additionally, as development progressed the Devs continued to refine Stalkers. As they did so Stalkers performance and playstyle by design was compared to and became more Scrapperesque. I wasn't mincing words. I didn't have anything to say about about comparing AS to Snipe, or being described as a melee snipe. I can't comment line by line, word by word. But your other comparison of AS to Nuke, that was worthy of scrutiny so I commented on that. In fact, you throwing in a comment like, "One could also make the argument that Assassin's Strike is similar to a ST nuke," that's the real waste of time. Even back in the early days people realized that to stay up with teams it was best to lead with the auto-crit of the Heaviest Hitter than to start with AS. In fact, a trend of people skipping AS in their builds partially led to the changes of quick snipe, and Stalker 2.0. And how they play now is important because it highlights the direction of Stalkers' development, the intention of the AT.

It's about their Playstyle and their ROLES. It is not about their powers, nor is it about their whole secondary basically being a blaster rolled up into one Assault set. You are defining Dominators by powers that have recharges between 60-240 seconds. Dominators spend most of their time dealing damage, that is the play style, blast and melee like Blappers and Blasttrollers. And they are glass canons just like Blasters, without all the self/team buff, self/team heals, enemy debuffing like controllers. Now Controllers (except Kins, which are nothing like playing a Dominator) almost exclusively play at range, just like a MM, and buffing/debuffing, healing and then spamming anything they can proc out. Role-wise Controllers and MMs are 100% interchangeable on a team, as are Doms and Blasters. If a team had one buffer/debuffer, say a Controller, it would be a largely different team if it was replaced with a Dom, whereas it would be nigh identical if replaced by an MM. Oh you are one of those that hit AoE Immob or Hold leaving enemy spawns all spread out reducing the effectiveness of the teams' AoEs. for the rest see the above text. Bruh, what? It is about Roles and playstyle. Blasters and Stalkers play nothing alike, nor are their builds anything alike. BUT, wow Scrappers and Stalkers play very much alike and their builds are soooooo very similar as well. The overlap is like 90% on playstyle and builds. It's not exactly rocket science these characteristics seem pretty self-evident. c'mon really comparing AS to a nuke... Anyone else want to second this?

I will, you are totally trolling with this comment. MMs and Controllers damage comes primarily from their pets, and spend a lot of their time buffing/debuffing. Controllers do a little CC then buff/debuff, while Doms may open with CC but then it's attack, attack, attack. So yes Doms play a lot more like Blasters, and Controllers more like MMs.

I know we differ, but honestly I think 4 Fire/Psi would have the best time b/c of the -regen and lots of AoE damage with hot feet, bonfire, and PSW.

It's a good measuring stick b/c there are varied enemies, varied objectives, etc., varied lvls (minions, LTs, Bosses, EBs, AVs) and so on. You could play it on easy street and have as many deaths as you want and run at +0, I don't think the order of the standings will change much. I see similar results whether it is running MLTF, TinPex, Kahn, PI missions or whatever.

lol but hey there is an /SR in there! I think it looks pretty good overall except Dominators and Sentinels, they are fighting for who will be last.

Yes they said that in some interview way later as they laughed about it. But no one recognized that from the get go, and all the live development was in the direction of Brutes = Tanks: Brutes = Tanks - (This was obvious to everyone see as they have taunt, hold aggro, and identical powersets in reverse order.) MMs = Controllers - (when teams look to fill roles, they dan't say hay I need a pet class, the say I need a buff/debuff and look for Def/Cor/Cont/Def.) Stalkers = Scrapper - (geez almost every power and inherents are the same.) Corruptors = Defenders - (this one is as obvious as Brutes and Tanks) Dominators = Blasters - (These two classes are both glass canons. Both have limited access to buff/debuff, to heals, etc. That leaves Damage as the primary goal for both, and their playstyles are remarkably similar. ) ROFL when have you ever seen a team say we need a "tank" and then they grab a MM? Never because they have no aggro control. MMs play the roll of buff/debuff. By that logic Brutes (and Sentinels) should have the same defense numbers as scrappers/stalkers because they are all secondary armor sets. And corruptors blast sets should be on the same level as Blasters, b/c they are both primary blast sets. Primary/Secondary is really neither here nor there. That view is too narrow, not giving flexibility to design. One set simply has to be first and one second. A Doms role on a team is primarily to add damage to the team, CC is a side thing. Same for Controllers, CC is a side thing, on a team it's their buffs/debuffs that matter most despite that being their secondary as well. Whoa now you have gone too far. Blasters aren't way ahead by a wide margin. If they were they would be 1st on MoITF w/o inspirations +4/8 4-man challenge. All TW/BIO SCRAPPERS 14:45 @Acidalia @Mr.FUBAR @lucas @Raw (ROFL) e/ ducks here comes the nerf bat! 1ST 22:54 BRUTES @EV(Rad/Fire) @Impedix(Spines/Fire) @lucas(SS/Fire) @Sparta(Staff/SR) 2ND 23:59 BLASTERS @Acidalia(Fire/TA) @dayday(Fire/Temp) @FUBAR(Fire/Temp) @Raw(BR/TA) 3RD 25:09 CORRUPTORS @dayday(Fire/Time) @Midnight2(Fire/Dark) @FUBAR(Fire/Kin) @Stubb(Fire/Time) 4TH 25:28 SCRAPPERS (Non-TW) @dayday(Elec/Fire) @FUBAR(WM/SD) @Gio(Psi/EA) @lucas(Spines/Bio) 5TH 26:18 STALKERS @dayday(StJ/DA) @EV(Fire/SR) @FUBAR(Psi/Rad) @lucas(Elec/SD) 6TH 26:21 DEFENDERS @dayday(Cold/Dark) @FUBAR(Dark/Fire) @Midnight2(Time/Ice) @Stubb(Kin/Elec) 7TH 26:23 TANKS @DaCrusha(Rad/DM) @dayday(Elec/SS) @FUBAR(Bio/TW) @Turtumos(Fire/Fire) Best Dom run is 29 mins, but it had 1 death.

- A blaster can still fight with it's T1 powers while mezzed. A Blaster can run Clarion for mez protection, a Dominator needs to choose between Ageless or Rebirth. A Blaster can take more hits than a Dom because of a higher base HP and it's sustain powers. - The window at which pets are "incredible" is very narrow. Like if the settings are -1/+0/+1, and you are fighting an isolated foe, otherwise they are like "squirrel" - A blaster doesn't necessarily have fewer holds. My Ice/Plant has 4, most Doms have 2. - I am not saying that the game should be balanced around +4/8 content, but it does reveal some things. And I am not looking for blaster level damage overall. If you look back I only suggested a smidgen of a bump, some poetic symmetry if you will. The idea I was striving for was to get counter-ATs aligned. Such as Tanks to Brutes as were rebalanced at the beginning of the year. Maybe you hate that, but now I don't feel like I am costing the team for inviting me on a Tank, or inviting a second tank to the team. As I tank I don't feel like I am being used for my body anymore, lol. I think Corruptors vs Defenders are on a good level. I think that Scrappers vs Stalkers compare well. MMs and Controllers (which I play the least) IDK so someone else needs to make that case.

It's not just mixing in a low damage hold. When I run shortman +4/8 MoITFs w/o inspirations I am playing like a blapper, looking for DPS for the best time. And I have completed a 4-man +4/8 MoITF w/o inspirations with enemies buffed on my Fire/Psi (46:36 Blaster @EV(BR/Dev) Controller @Raw(Dark/Rad) Defender @dayday(Time/Fire) Dominator @Mr.FUBAR(Fire/Psi)). It's alsonot about perma holding, b/c even with 4 Doms on +4/8 the AVs don't stay held. And there are lots of mobs around the AV. Also the hold doesn't have to be low damage, because the Holds proc really well. 😜

yeah there is a point, just because they can do the same thing doesn't mean they are equal. A dom can solo an AV sure, but it will take so much longer to do it. You keep saying this... can you please share what we are getting wrong? Do you have some data? Some anecdotes at least?

this started with a poster stating, "For many reasons, I would love it if IO sets were simply removed from the game. " not that they are good but presented new imbalances or whatever but you didn't bother to go back and read what was said before apparently. It's not that their differing viewpoint was silly because I think differently. Fretting over IOs which are not mandatory is silly. It's silly because a player can opt out. I have even seen people like T the Tank on Excel Vet lvl 100 with ZERO IO bonuses. Play the game how ever you want. Corruptors do completely outpace Doms as I and many others have observed over and over again here. Sentinels on the other hand...there's your bottom feeder.

pet damage is highly unreliable. Except for Poo and the Hound they die too easily. They also get distracted on minor targets. And as the difficulty increases their effectiveness greatly diminishes. On the teams that I run on pets are pointless because the pets can't keep up, and if they do they die. Add to that they are hard to keep track, idk know what their health is, how many are alive if any, etc.

It's not that it can't be done (that is not in question), a Smart car can get you from point A to point B but not in a similar fashion as a Tesla model S P100D. And also, what are you playing at +0/1?