justicebeliever

That's pretty close, but they aren't providing software to the general public, rather to other non-profits...you have to be a certified 501(c)3 to work with them (I've used them several times and I've donated software to them as well, they are a great group)

Would that sandwich have egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam; spam bacon sausage and spam; spam egg spam spam bacon and spam; or spam sausage spam spam bacon spam tomato and spam?

Not sure I follow... I appreciate the optimism Abraxus, and I am sharing it as well...But it's human nature to fill in the blanks when we are missing information and I think while the information was shared in good intent, it shouldn't be unexpected for people to speculate on possible outcomes...It's the same curiosity that fuels scientific discovery... However, you are correct, we shouldn't be taking actions, like leaving the game, until we have more data. And I liked your earlier post that people should stay in the present and play now while we have the game and enjoy what we have now instead of spending too much time fretting about what is out of our control...

You sir, definitely win...I'll speculate southern France? Now I have to go back and edit all my posts...

Sadly, it's not genuine - a lot of us got these yesterday.

I like most of this. I'm all in favor of making DO's and SO's more accessible to lower level players... Let's allow DO's to drop starting at lvl 5 (enhancement lvl, not security level) to anyone for completing a mission Let's allow SO's to drop starting at lvl 5 to anyone completing a story arc Let's allow you to purchase SO's at any level from a merit vendor (currently you can only get them at lvl 25) You don't have retweak the entire enhancement infrastructure to get away with this... And as DO's/SO's do become more commonplace, then the prices on the market will drop considerably...

That just links to @Number Six's profile...

We are going round and round...I'll just repeat the following: 1.) I'm going to assume Homecoming is NOT a tax-exempt or registered non-profit since they have yet to provide those details...Saying you are going to do a thing doesn't make it so until you've done it...So far, there is no Homecoming Server registered with the IRS as Tax Exempt...nor are they registered as a non-profit in my state... 2.) Nothing they are doing with NCSoft will change their legal status...thus they are staying a for-profit SMLLC until stated otherwise The IRS Tax Code doesn't support HC's mission to become Tax Exempt as they currently operate. You cannot have a Tax Exempt organization for the sole purpose of provide software to a player base...If you disagree, please provide an example... I am less familiar with all software licensing models, however, I am unfamiliar with any per-user model, where someone who is not an agent of the IP holder can just grant access to the IP willy nilly. Again, if you disagree, please provide an example... They can keep going I suppose as they have been seeking gifts from the playerbase while become an agent of NCSoft who provides them the licensing rights for free... Also becoming an agent of NCSoft, doesn't mean that they are owned or controlled by NCSoft...just that NCSoft has control over how their IP is deployed and has delegated the operations of that to a separate entity... It's fine to just "disagree with me" or make suppositions about my experience with non-profits or software licensing, but if want to have a conversation, please provide evidence...If you like, I can point you to the IRS Tax Code, it's surprisingly easy to understand when it comes to non-profits... If you just want to disagree without provide an actual counterpoint (like an example), then I'm out...Knock yourself silly getting the last word...

If we have no idea what they are going to do, then I'm not sure why we have a back and forth...I agree, who knows what they are going to do, and I have stated so myself...

Who said otherwise? Homecoming is not a registered non-profit, nor is it a tax-exempt organization...I don't think either of those will change...

Yes...well, unfortunately CoH isn't a SSAS, it is a client/server application with end users and the licensing agreement has always been between the end user and the IP holder...So it's not the same...You can say it is all you want, but it's not a per-user application...And I am really not sure what you are debating here @ShardWarriorI'm thinking you are just stirring the pot...Do you believe that NCSoft is going to allow HC to not have end user licensing? Rather than just rebut my own statements, what are your thoughts?

It's the mission that defines a non-profit...It's pretty clear and well settled IRS law...otherwise it's for-profit. So yes, anyone can provide a service...but only if that service meets one of the IRS definitions for Tax Exempt, can it get what most of us call a non-profit...Technically, a non-profit can be any entity that is registered in every state that it solicits funds from...You can be a non-profit and still be a fully taxable organization according to the IRS... SQL server (at the enterprise level) isn't licensed according to users, so it's irrelevant...please provide a per-user example...

That SQL example is not the same and you know it...They license by the processing power not the user...so it's irrelevant the # of users...that's an apples to pizza comparison...

I've worked both angles for many years... But please, enlighten me, since we are going down the path of clarifying each other's understandings... Regarding Non-Profits: What other Non-Profit's mission is to deliver a video game to regular joes? I'm curious as to your experience... Regarding Enterprise Licensing - Please name a situation where MS allow people outside of the licensed entity, permission to use their software? Again, please explain?

Licenses are for a specific # of users...and those licensed to a non-profit are typically only for users who are in the employ or volunteer with that non-profit. So for example...I give to both the United Way and the Salvation army...I am a donor, but I am not a user of any of the software that has been licensed to the United Way or to the Salvation Army...If the Salvation Army said, "Hey Justice, thanks for the $50, would you like to use MS Office?" that would breach their licensing agreement with Microsoft... In this case, we are the end users, not the entity...so in truth. HC would become an agent of NCSoft, giving HC permission to manage their software for them. And, it's hard to make a case, that your Non-profit's reason for existence to is to manage software licensing for another company...It doesn't meet any of the definitions of an IRS Tax Exempt Organization...

HC isn't sharing their MS license with us...they aren't giving me SQL server...It's for their own use...This would be giving an entity a license for the express purposes of sharing that license with it's community, and that's entity sole purpose for existing is to share that license... It's not the definition of a non-profit by any stretch That being said, I told @TonyV I'd give him the chance to show us how this can be done...so I'm not saying they can't find a way...

I truly don't believe that anyone who has advocated for this change wants the enemies to be rebalanced...they want to feel more powerful in the lower levels...

Technically, this is true, and I have mistated this myself... But there are definitive fiduciary duties that corporate officers have to their stockholders, and it is to ensure that the best interests of the stockholders are met...

I slept poorly last night. It's possible, probable even, I am carrying in some frustration from that into this discussion. As I am really tired, I'm not sure that's the case, but I'm sure on reflection I will see that is so, so I will apologize if I have been a little too...abrupt here... I want to be clear, TO/DO's are not a sacred cow to me...I joined in on this conversation because I don't think the effort's described in this thread are as limited in scope as suggested, are fixing a problem that needs correcting, and are worth the development time involved (regardless of size). If we are in agreement on all 3 of those, then really, I'm finished here, and don't really want to continue this discussion...If not, help me out, and let me know what you are saying, because I feel we are going round and round here...

I hear you Widower...and I am genuinely excited for you guys...but seriously, what did you all expect? When you give vague information, almost universally, people (not Clockwork) tend to fill in the gaps themselves, and almost universally, people (not Nemesis Automatons) tend to fill them in based on their own personal experiences, which include a lot of bad situations...Usually, (not always), vagueness is used to buy someone time to share/dispense bad information...I honestly don't think that's the case here, but it's still to be expected So I would agree that the Clockwork and Automatons should only react logically, I would hope the people here react with emotion...some with joy, but because it's vague, many with FUD...

It's an SMLLC, (single member llc), so there is only ONE person that is technically HC at this point...not sure who... And it's legal protection for bootlegging are probably more sparse than they would like...They are well protected from us...just not NCSoft...

I heard your disclaimer, so it wasn't pointless...shame on me a little for not calling that out...sorry My point is that it sounds like your bottom line is wanting the game to go on forever...and I get that... My point is that it's pointless (many of my points are pointless, I suppose), it's pointless to worry about which is the more likely outcome...Because in this case there are just too many variables...So I wouldn't worry about NCSoft being the more likely culprit to pull the rug out from underneath you...Enjoy it while you can

Look, we need to separate DFB from this conversation...If you are running DFB, you already ONLY get SO's and this whole exercise is just a point in you and I repeating yourself. But regardless, let's say we make this change. I run DFB for 10 lvls...I have 19 slots, and I walk away with 10 SO's...Now those 10 SO's are going to be worth less than the going rate of SO's (because know I just buy SO's at Atlas or run missions, right?) So I can sell the 10 SO's for the equivalent of 8 SO's. So now I have the money to buy 8 new SO's...but I have 19 slots to fill...how I am better off? Guess I better go run DFB some more, and guess what, now I am lvl 22, and this conversation is pointless... And new players can't afford SO's in the marketplace...they are hardly commonplace (there are only 23 Damage SO's on the market across all shards, under lvl 10, and zero accuracy, recharge rate, or endurace reduction...Currently all are selling on average for 10K or more) The premise of DFB was to give people a way to lvl fast and get some cool rewards and avoid the low level grind...If we go this route, and SO's do become commonplace...how soon before we hear cries that we need better rewards for DFB... Then why are we having this discussion? Why do we need to improve something that is NOT broken...Just a debate exercise??? That's great, but then just say so, so you don't waste other people's time with pointless discussions....

Yes, but apart from an experiment, it would be unethical (like, you would lose your license to practice medicine, and/or sued) to prescribe one...I'm not suggesting it would or wouldn't work (it wouldn't, and you know it, because you've met the min/max'ers on these boards). Just that it would be unethical...

I mean with sarcasm or condescension, but only naivety or insincerity would have someone state that there wouldn't be a long thread on the very 1st day this change took place that would say, "we need to rebalance IO's to make them more like SO's at the lower levels"...The promise of the IO is that is a.) more expensive than a DO or SO at the same level, b.) doesn't need to be replaced every level, and c.) about as effective as as the normal enhancement you would get at that same level...There wouldn't be debate back and forth like this thread, just a bunch of mad people, and they would be right... So seriously, that is part of my argument. Feel free to read my entire posts for the rest of it... Note: I am not claiming you have said these things...but there is little point in further discussing this unless you are going to take into account IO's