siolfir

This really belongs in the other thread, but since it was brought up here and I was doing multiple replies to posts in this thread, I'll just reply here. The crash - when it happens - is only lessened for defense sets, it's worse for builds that have resistance to go with their defense. As you mentioned, the crash (if it happens) is worse for Brutes than Tankers due to having the same defense and resistance penalty applied to an AT with lower modifiers for defense and resistance; Brutes also get less effect from Rage (lower AT modifier, now much lower, combined with an inherent that provides them more +damage much easier). I'm one of the first people to post a mild agreement with the nerf, and I'm one of the people in the other thread arguing how it's not that hard at all to cap damage with a Kinetic on the team - I teamed with one on my Rad/Elec Brute last week, and between Fury, Fulcrum Shift, and slotting, I spent about 80% of each mission at the damage cap. I agree that it's a nerf, and not one that's so rarely encountered that you'll never notice (especially since I monitor my +dam on my Brutes in the combat attributes window). But there is a logic to it, and the number chosen makes sense for reasons that I posted earlier that weren't just the "90% damage/survivability ratio" for Tankers and Brutes. That's why I said it probably should have happened when they were "changing" (read: nerfing) Fury to make it +2% damage instead of +3% years ago, which is also when they adjusted the decay rate to make it easier to maintain between spawns.

On the old servers, Assault Rifle had the same base recharge (60 seconds). On Homecoming, Rain of Arrows has a 65 second base recharge for Blasters, Corruptors, and Defenders, and Full Auto has a 60 second recharge. Both of those sets also have the slowest animations for their nukes (4 seconds, with most being 3). For Sentinels, Archery has the slowest recharging nuke (95 seconds), and every other "nuke" was normalized to 90 seconds.

If you're talking about recharge times, they're all fairly easy to get animation-limited in single-target chains, and if you're trying to create a straight AoE chain you want a set with a lot of AoEs, all of which have similar base recharges (cones are usually 8-10 seconds, targeted AoEs are 16-20). So to answer the last question you asked first, it really doesn't matter. If you're talking about animation times, the t1 and t2 animations were normalized when Paragon Studios redid Defiance for Blasters (1.0 second animation for t1, 1.67 seconds for t2). So that means you should look for sets with fast t3s or fast AoEs. Fire Blast has both (Blaze: 1s, Fire Ball: 1s), Ice Blast has a fast t3 (Bitter Ice Blast: 1.07s) and can proc Freeze Ray (1s) for a lot of damage, but the AoEs are all fairly slow (2 seconds+). Electric Blast has Ball Lightning with a 1.07s animation, but no t3 single target blast (if that matters to you). If you're just looking at fastest animations for nukes, Psychic Wail and Dreadful Wail are the only t9 "nukes" with animation times under 2 seconds; Blizzard is 2.03 and is great for Corruptors for all the changes to Scourge but otherwise it's a DoT and a lot of people don't like that.

I haven't made (or checked) these, but as modifications to the above, Add Nauseum sounds like a punny Poison character and Hellephino would be a demonic cross between an elephant and rhino?

I guess the good news is that with Bruising gone (need to edit my post earlier to include that), there's no longer any conceivable reason to even include it in your tray? Silver lining? Yeah, didn't think so.

If I had to guess, that magic 90% again. .75 * 7 = 5.25 .95 * 5 = 4.75 4.75 / 5.25 = .905 Basically, "if Tankers aren't getting 550%, then Brutes aren't keeping 775%"; it also strictly puts Scrappers in the lead for base damage at the cap (5.625 without criticals). That said, it probably should have been done when Fury was changed years ago (see my earlier feedback).

Off the top of my head as a comparison to live (feel free to add/correct these, since I didn't look up everything in the other thread and/or log on to beta for the actual numbers): Tankers Melee damage modifier: 0.80 -> 0.95 Epic pool powers correctly using ranged damage modifier, which is now 0.8 (don't remember old value; it wasn't used until Sorcery, so buff to 1 power, lack of buff for epic ranged powers); melee set ranged powers (Hurl, Hurl Boulder, Focus, Impale, Focused Burst) continue to use the melee modifier. Damage cap: 400% -> 500% (same as most other damage ATs, +400% in enhancements/buffs) AoE geometry buffs as part of inherent (does not show for in-game information, doubled arc width or +60% radius for most AoEs - but not all) Target cap increases on melee powersets Better leadership buffs (don't have exact numbers, someone else fill in please?) Removal of Bruising effect from T1 secondary powers Brutes Epic ranged powers correctly using ranged damage modifier, which is now 0.75 (IIRC it was 0.55? Again... it wasn't used until Sorcery, so it's a buff to 1 power, no change to any others); melee set ranged powers (Hurl, Hurl Boulder, Focus, Impale, Focused Burst) continue to use the melee modifier. Damage cap: 775% -> 700% Personal opinion/feedback: I agree with the removal of the +20 endurance; the melee modifier increase no longer makes Tankers a "low damage" AT, so the reason for providing it was suspect. While the patch includes a "nerf" to Brutes, it's one that I think should have been done when Fury was reduced from +3% per point to +2% per point; this means that a Brute at max Fury (+200%, which is impossible to sustain for any length of time) will have the same buff capacity (+400%, taking the Brute to +600% total) as the other "damage AT" which get +400%. I hope that some of the worst T1 powers that were prompting the T1/T2 swaps (*coughJabcough*) get looked at in a separate pass for all of the ATs sharing the powersets.

Several posts in the Tanker feedback thread stated that the aggro cap is the same across all ATs due to being tied to critter (mob) AI, so there isn't an easy way to have separate caps by AT. The aggro cap (number of things that will attack you) is 17 for everyone. This has nothing to do directly with how many things you hit, but threat generation for both Tankers and Brutes means that if they hit something, it will be taunted. The target cap (number of things you can hit with a power in a single activation) is increasing from 5 to 10 for the Taunt power, for Tankers. The target cap (again, the number of things you can hit with a power in a single activation) for many Tanker AoEs is going from 5 to 10 (for cones) and 10 to 16 (for PB/TAoEs). Not all of the AoEs are being changed. (and, 2 replies came in while I was typing this - hopefully it explains the differences enough that other people don't get confused)

If you're talking strictly based on modifiers, then it's Brutes, then Tankers. Even without the changes on beta, which push the Tanker damage modifier to just shy of the Stalker one (0.95 vs 1.0), Brutes have a lower modifier (0.75) than Tanker (0.80). Tankers get helped by Bruising currently, but that's only if they use their t1 attack.

I think it seems unimpressive, but I only took it as a thematic power on my (catgirl) sentinel, Bad Cliche.

With all of the talk about min/max this, min/max that, the stated premise of the buffs was due to a min/max team building concept: a second Tanker is the least valuable member to a team.

Opponents of the damage cap increase.

I'm perfectly aware of that. I also noticed that you ignored Stalkers (5.0) and Corruptors (3.75), and realistically I just wanted my feedback to be heard by the dev team - that's the point of this thread, after all. And the initial +200% bump has been lowered (some), the reason for doing so was explained (as a straight damage-vs-survivability comparison to Brutes), so now the point of the post was more of a "how about these ATs"? Again, to get the thought in place that a damage-secondary AT has a higher cap than damage-primary ATs.

The part where you mentioned that people were "Basically people consciously or unconsciously mad that the brutes toes were getting stepped on. " You're putting words into people's mouths and then reacting to that, which is practically the definition of a strawman argument. Like I said, for me the problem with a 600% cap was the other ATs that got leapfrogged.

Actually, I was more upset that it was higher than the Scrapper, Stalker, Blaster, and Corruptor caps - you know, damage primary ATs? It still is, and Blasters should really have the biggest complaint here since Defiance allows them to get a stacking +damage buff for attacking and the other ATs I mention have some form of criticals that allows them to bypass it under certain conditions. Contrary to your strawman, it's not all about Brutes vs Tankers. My main posts about the cap were in response to claims that it's nigh-impossible for a single Kinetic to keep someone at it, which is blatantly false and misleading on top-end performance, if that's something that this dev team wants to try to balance around (which seems to be the case, given that it was set to provide 90% of top-end Brute damage ignoring -resistance modifiers). I'd be in favor of this. I'd even be in favor of moving all ATs to the Brute cap, but that's a power creep at the top end that is generally a bad idea and would push the game even more into easy mode. What I don't like seeing is a seemingly arbitrary change just for one AT, which just underscores how the cap affects all of them.

/altinvite - no need for a second account.

This is a sound a logical thing to do, but I think you'll find that at low levels it will seem like a nerf because the damage scales for the ATs aren't really finalized at that level. That's what I was referencing earlier - at very low levels all of the ATs are roughly (but not exactly) equal on damage modifiers, and the differences get sorted out through the teen levels. To demonstrate, let's about Stalkers (1.0 melee) vs Tankers (0.8 melee), using Energy Punch because it's a scale 1 attack: Stalker, level 1: 10 damage. Tanker (live servers), level 1: 9.60 damage (Tankers already have scale 0.96 damage! 0.95 scale is a nerf! What are these buffs doing?!) Tanker (beta), level 1: 9.90 damage (oh, wait... that is a little higher...) Stalker, level 20: 28.39 damage. Tanker (live servers), level 20: 22.71 damage... which is 80% of the Stalker damage. (phew, sanity is restored) Tanker (beta), level 20: 26.97 damage, which is 95% of the Stalker damage - exactly where it should be. It's not unique to melee, either: Blasters have a 1.125 scale ranged modifer and Defenders have a 0.65 modifier, right? So you would expect a Defender to hit for 57.8% of the damage of a Blaster, and Corruptors (0.75) to hit for 66.67% of the Blaster using the same power. So let's look at Ice Bolt at level 1: Blaster: 10.25 damage. 57.78% of that is 5.92. But... Defender: 9.30 damage. That's 90.7% of a Blaster's damage. Corruptor: 9.50 damage. Just ignore the fact that it's showing damage as if Scourge was always hitting (no idea when that bug cropped up, I remember seeing "if Scourge" before the shutdown). So let's adjust the slider to level 20: Blaster: 31.94 damage. Defender: 18.45 damage. That's 57.76% of the Blaster's damage, which is close to where we would expect it to be. Corruptor: 21.29 damage, which is 66.66% of the Blaster's damage. So testing these buffs isn't going to be overly useful at low levels because all you'll be noticing is that you lost Bruising, because the modifiers don't take effect at the levels you're testing at. As for trying to get a live tanker to sufficient level to do a direct before-and-after comparison... it's not that hard to get to level 20+ in a farm. Sadly you can't copy to beta, because this is where having it would shine, giving you the exact same character with only the code changes differentiating them.

I just cheated it on Reunion by making a base with a portal to Echo: Galaxy City at level 2, and using the tram to get to Ouroboros. There's no minlevel to get in coming from the echo. You still need to be trained to level 14 to use the portal, though.

You are aware that the damage modifiers aren't effective from level 1 to level 50, right? Try comparing the numbers with the slider at a level above 20, which IIRC is where all of the numbers end up a the final scales they stay at until level 50.

The point was to show whether or not Super Strength is balanced around Rage, but I edited that line out before posting because I considered it to be a leading statement. I just wanted to show the numbers and let people draw their own conclusions. Also, the effect of Rage is diminished as +damage is increased, making the power proportionally weaker on Brutes due to Fury, or with armor sets that provide additional +damage (Shield, Bio); I didn't include a calculation for the proportional bonus from Build Up compared to Rage because those are build-specific and playstyle-specific issues, but I think that (with Rage always crashing damage when it wears off as it currently does) Stone Melee wins in an over-time comparison, because double-stacking leads to crashes twice as often and it can't make up the difference in not having Seismic Smash's animation time and base recharge advantages, and not having Heavy Mallet. Not having a crash shifts it back to Super Strength, as you mention above.

All this talk about comparing Super Strength to other sets, but nobody is posting comparisons. So let's compare to something similar: Stone Melee. It does the same damage type, has similar crowd control abilities, and many similar/comparable powers. It was also designed at around the same time. So let's see what's similar: Punch animates slower, but otherwise is Stone Fist. Advantage Stone Melee for DPA. Haymaker animates slightly faster, but otherwise is Stone Mallet. Advantage Super Strength for DPA. <--- I done goofed! Mallet animates slower! Hurl and Hurl Boulder are the same power with two names. It's a wash. Taunt is the same power across all the powersets. Stone Melee gets Heavy Mallet. Super Strength gets Jab. Stone Melee wins this one in a landslide, as there's nothing positive to say about Jab beyond "at least Brutes don't have to take it". Seismic Smash is a 9.536 second mag 4 hold doing scale 3.56 damage for 18.512 endurance with a 20 second recharge. Knockout Blow is an 11.92 second mag 3 hold doing scale 3.56 damage for 18.512 endurance with a 25 second recharge. Stone Melee wins this one for higher magnitude and shorter recharge: KOB has a longer hold duration, but a shorter animation and lower recharge are both much better for your heavy hitters. Fault and Hand Clap have the same radius and Stun (duration, magnitude, and chance for bonus magnitude); Hand Clap does not have the Smashing damage type (only AoE). Fault has a 20' range to the target, Hand Clap is PBAoE. Fault has a 20 second recharge, mag 0.67 knockback (knockdown), and costs 10.192 endurance. Hand Clap has a 30 second recharge, mag 5.193 knockback (sends thing flying), and costs 13 endurance. Stone Melee wins this one, too. Tremor's animation is horribly slow. But it does scale 1 damage to a 15' radius for 13.52 endurance on a 14 second recharge, and has an 80% chance to knockdown (mag 0.67 knockback). Foot Stomp animates a lot faster, does scale 1.42 damage to a 15' radius for 18.512 endurance on a 20 second recharge, and has an 80% chance to knockdown (mag 0.67 knockback). Super Strength wins this one, but if Tremor got the Dominator 2.5 second animation across all ATs it would be much closer. Then there's Build Up vs Rage. With no crash (ie, single-stack beta version) Rage is far superior, no question. So with 9 powers, the score is Stone Melee, 4-3-2, with Super Strength winning only on Rage and Foot Stomp.

This has to be a troll job, but I'll take it as an honest question. Brutes get less actual damage increase than the other melee ATs because they have the lowest modifier. They have more +damage on a constant basis due to their inherent, so that smaller increase applies to a number that's already inflated due to Fury's +damage, resulting in a very small increase. Take a scale 1 attack (55.61 damage) with 95% slotting (rounding to second decimal place). Here are the base numbers. Brute (no Fury): 55.61 * 1.95 * 0.75 = 81.33 damage Tanker (no changes): 55.61 * 1.95 * 0.8 = 86.75 damage Tanker (beta): 55.61 * 1.95 * 0.95 = 103.02 damage Stalker (no critical): 55.61 * 1.95 = 108.44 damage Scrapper (no critical): 55.61 * 1.95 * 1.125 = 121.99 damage Brute (70 Fury): 55.61 * 3.35 * 0.75 = 139.72 damage Add a small red (+25% damage), which at 95% slotting provides a 12.8% increase (1.95 + 0.25 buffed damage / 1.95 original damage) in overall damage in the absence of other damage buffs: Brute (no Fury): 55.61 * 2.20 * 0.75 = 91.76 damage (10.43 damage more) Tanker (no changes): 55.61 * 2.20 * 0.8 = 97.87 damage (11.12 damage more) Tanker (beta): 55.61 * 2.20 * 0.95 = 116.22 damage (13.20 damage more) Stalker (no critical): 55.61 * 2.20 = 122.34 damage (13.9 damage more) Scrapper (no critical): 55.61 * 2.20 * 1.125 = 137.63 damage (15.64 damage more) Brute (70 Fury): 55.61 * 3.60 * 0.75 = 150.15 damage (10.43 damage more, a 7.5% increase in overall damage because Fury provides so much +damage already) So the Brute gains the smallest amount of actual damage increase, as well as a smaller benefit from any +damage buff relative to what they had without it, simply due to how Fury drowns it out. If your goal is to kill things faster, you're better off buffing someone else until they hit the damage cap. True, but Bruising is more consistent than Melt Armor or Anguishing Cry due to the long cooldowns on those powers compared to a Tanker's tier 1 attack. Enervating Field is by far the most reliable of those, being an autohit 15' AoE with an 8 second recharge, especially now that it will anchor on the corpse, but it doesn't debuff defense (and Radiation Infection has a much longer cast time, during which the anchor often dies). Off-topic, but I personally think that the recharge on Melt Armor is too high (15' AoE, 150 sec recharge, 18.2 end), and the numbers for similar powers are all over the place - just look at Sleet/Freezing Rain (60 seconds, 18.2 end), Anguishing Cry (25', 120 sec, 13 end), and Slowed Response (25', 90 sec, 15.6 end). It's one of the reasons I never made a Thermal once Homecoming went public. Relative to this thread, I'm not saying to keep or remove Bruising, but I am saying that single-target or not, it was readily available every fight and some of the AoEs you were comparing it to aren't, outside of high global recharge builds.