Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Haijinx]

How do we know WM is #2 for st damage? 

 

I do know its decent though.

 

 

[TheAdjustor]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I mean yeah, lets just go full Syndrome.

Looks up at the rest of this thread. Otay

[TheAdjustor]

10 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

How do we know WM is #2 for st damage? 

 

I do know its decent though.

 

 

We actually don't know that's just what was reported in the pylon thread which seems to be the basis of this thread.  And there is the fact that there is something like a 40% variance in the DPS output between TW players in that thread demonstrating once again its  numbers need to be taken with a reallllly big grain of salt.

Edited September 14, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Infinitum]

14 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

What is WM under?

 

Anyways, circling way back I feel Steampunkette had a good idea on page 1 where a side-grade would be nice. Something that, while it curtails TW's high end performance, makes it a bit easier to use or better on the low end.

Whats the point of ever doing anything high end if its always going to create a target for the set?

 

Who cares about the low end?  Thats just a stepping stone to get to the high end.

 

And IOs make a lot of this possible, they basically did GDN and ED just so we could work harder to break the system in many different and interesting ways in the future.

 

TW I think I read somewhere was the live teams consolation for craphammering EM and melee in general back in 2008.

 

So its a correction for melee and a good one that makes it more competitive with the rest of the game honestly.

 

You can also see cool design effects in psi melee with the insight mechanic, which when combined with buildup and Gaussian proc can do unheard of ST damage even by old EM standards.

 

Then the contaminated effect in rad melee is nice, it's just a tad slower feeling than psi melee that's why I switched my main from rad to psi, but rad is still very good.

 

Those 2 are a lot more fun to me than TW, the rest of the sets could be brought back up in a unique way to match these three in different ways.  Everyone wins there and melee is still viable and a valid part of the game.  You can see an extended effort by the dev team in the later melee sets.

 

Man if they only buff EM I have the melee trifecta then with my 3 main 50s.  I have 8 50s total but rad, psi, and hopefully EM will be what I play the most. Well melee play anyway. My grav time is OP feeling also, especially how I built it.

[Infinitum]

That's what psi melee is capable of when built right and setted out. add those three damages together and that off one attack - brute psi/Elec. I did even more damage than that another time on a purple fake nem boss but for some reason it won't lwt me upload that picture.

 

Theres a lot of good stuff out there, this one feels the best to me and i think only 200 people rolled one like it according to the FOTM graphs.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

My point is just because it isnt widely played isn't a good metric.  Because psi melee is what I use to get my old school EM fix in.

 

It reminds me a lot of that only with swords... From your mind.

[TheAdjustor]

10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

That's what psi melee is capable of when built right and setted out. add those three damages together and that off one attack - brute psi/Elec. I did even more damage than that another time on a purple fake nem boss but for some reason it won't lwt me upload that picture.

 

Theres a lot of good stuff out there, this one feels the best to me and i think only 200 people rolled one like it according to the FOTM graphs.

Raises a really good point. Sets like PSI, TW, and DB that require more attention and skill to play well should do much better when played well.  The 123,123,123,123 sets have their place but they shouldn't be top performers.

[Infinitum]

Just now, TheAdjustor said:

Raises a really good point. Sets like PSI, TW, and DB that require more attention and skill to play well should do much better when played well.  The 123,123,123,123 sets have their place but they shouldn't be top performers.

Yeah with psi you are always strategically seeking insight thats why you almost always need a mob to mass levitate to gaiin insight almost flawlessly then pop buildup and greater psi blade, psiblade sweep, then greater psiblade again.

[Hopeling]

Buffing powersets across the board amounts to making the game as a whole easier. This is not necessarily a popular thing to do. For example, see the power creep thread in the general forums right now, which is not the first of its kind and probably will not be the last. Homecoming has made the game easier-as-in-less-tedious in many ways, like reducing merit costs or allowing double XP, but they haven't literally made enemies easier to kill across the board. Such a change would be largely unprecedented.

 

If the difficulty scale went higher, this would be less worrisome. And maybe I'm overestimating the impact of buffing melee sets. But it is at least a potential concern.

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Does every TW attack have a chance to crit? And every TW air have a chance to crit multiples?

Since nobody ever answered this: yes, every TW attack has a chance to crit, and the area attacks get a separate chance to crit on each target. This part works the same as any other scrapper set. Like most sets, it has one power with an increased crit chance (15% instead of 10%), in this case Arc of Destruction.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Going High end is great because its fun, and you push the meta. But like... being the only thing to hit 40% more than everything else gets suspect even if a few people are reporting it. On top of the metric of TW/Bio being very popular on Scrappers despite it not necessarily being the thematic pairing you'd expect to be popular like Claws/Regen, Inv/SS, and such.

 

We really don't have much data on the basic performance of the melee sets outside of high-end builds people gravitate towards The thread has given me a lot of feedback both ways depending on the build that TW has massive swings in performance which makes me think more and more it's a catalyst for over performance rather than an over performer itself, though there is something at work when even among the top performers it has amazing results. But as mentioned, Psy and Rad don't have many data points either....

 

I really think we need some way to look at a gambit of tests to compare sets in different areas at a basic level to get a good feel for how they perform in general. IOs / etc would just be outside sources and are too varied to consider without getting the baselines IMO.

 

 

 

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Buffing powersets across the board amounts to making the game as a whole easier. This is not necessarily a popular thing to do. For example, see the power creep thread in the general forums right now, which is not the first of its kind and probably will not be the last. Homecoming has made the game easier-as-in-less-tedious in many ways, like reducing merit costs or allowing double XP, but they haven't literally made enemies easier to kill across the board. Such a change would be largely unprecedented.

 

If the difficulty scale went higher, this would be less worrisome. And maybe I'm overestimating the impact of buffing melee sets. But it is at least a potential concern.

Since nobody ever answered this: yes, every TW attack has a chance to crit, and the area attacks get a separate chance to crit on each target. This part works the same as any other scrapper set. Like most sets, it has one power with an increased crit chance (15% instead of 10%), in this case Arc of Destruction.

 

I dont see the power creep problem either honestly, back during and around the EM nerf IMO the game was too hard, you couldnt hardly get through any AV content effectively without a rad present or something like it.  Now you can, IMO the current power level you actually feel like a super hero instead of too weak to take out an AV in less than 45 min.

 

Eh, incarnate content isnt what you would call easy, it's not mindnumbingly difficult either, but you have to stay on your toes or you will end up faceplanting a lot.

 

Even maria jenkins missions can be challenging, set to max, unless you have good controller types.  Thats what really makes the game easy, it isnt nor has it ever been melee. 

 

Melee to be effective doesnt need another round of nerfs.

 

My group plays every night - competing dual task force runs etc all fun stuff but we are never bored or not challengef enough, and most of us are like me setted out to the gills.

[Galaxy Brain]

I do feel that is part of the problem. Back in the day, the content was designed for support to be needed to boost the non supports as a feedback loop. You needed to debuff the enemy, then buff the damage dealers to take them down. Now that it isn't necessary, the supports are still at the same relative strength... but that is a massive can of worms

[Hopeling]

11 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I dont see the power creep problem either honestly,

That does not seem to prevent other people from having problems with it.

 

Like I said, if the difficulty settings went higher, this would not be an issue. Game too easy, just turn up the difficulty. But we're currently at a point where at least some decent fraction of the playerbase finds that turning it up all the way is still easier than they want. Across-the-board buffs amount to reducing the difficulty further, in a way they can't opt out of. Meanwhile, if you feel that current difficulty levels are fun and challenging, why exactly do you want to reduce them?

Edited September 14, 2019 by Hopeling

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I do feel that is part of the problem. Back in the day, the content was designed for support to be needed to boost the non supports as a feedback loop. You needed to debuff the enemy, then buff the damage dealers to take them down. Now that it isn't necessary, the supports are still at the same relative strength... but that is a massive can of worms

Lol thats coh in a nutshell, always has been.  Its still awesomely fun though.

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

That does not seem to prevent other people from having problems with it.

 

Like I said, if the difficulty settings went higher, this would not be an issue. Game too easy, just turn up the difficulty. But we're currently at a point where at least some decent fraction of the playerbase finds that turning it up all the way is still easier than they want. Across-the-board buffs amount to reducing the difficulty in a way they can't opt out of. Meanwhile, if you feel that current difficulty levels are fun and challenging, why exactly do you want to reduce them?

It literally never comes up in game and there are hundreds of us in coalition.

 

It won't change it for me or anyone else because like I said we are already OP and setted out.  I'm one of the few tank types that plays in my group, the rest are blasters and controller types.

 

They are the OP ones truly but its still fun.

 

Making other melee sets stonger wont affect our difficulty level at all.

 

If the game is too easy dont use IOs. That will fix it.

 

The difficulty of the game has Nothing to do with melee. Not directly anyway.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Infinitum

[Galaxy Brain]

I feel like the genie is out of the bottle with IO's though. 

 

I mentioned it earlier, but I think it would be fascinating to get data on IO use like we did AT stats, would be an interesting metric to see how common it is.

[Hopeling]

It's great that your coalition is having a good time, but again, that doesn't seem to stop it from bothering other people. It's great that making melee sets stronger won't affect your friends, but of course it won't if they don't even play melee.

 

I've pointed directly to threads full of people that such changes would upset. When the proposal was changes to TW, you (very reasonably)  insisted that the burden of proof was on me to justify why a change should be made; it's not enough for me to say that I personally don't mind a reduction. That still applies the other way around: if all melee sets should get buffed, that still needs to be justified. It's not enough to say that you personally wouldn't mind it.

[Indystruck]

People who don't want TW changing seem to demand numbers, but different, theoretical numbers pulled from the Cleft of Dimension, rather than the numbers they're being presented with.

 

As someone with a few TW at 50, I can safely say that 1) they do deal an absurd amount of damage in comparison to other melee classes, and 2) if they were to suddenly deal less damage, it's still a fun set to play.

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

It's great that your coalition is having a good time, but again, that doesn't seem to stop it from bothering other people. It's great that making melee sets stronger won't affect your friends, but of course it won't if they don't even play melee.

 

I've pointed directly to threads full of people that such changes would upset. When the proposal was changes to TW, you (very reasonably)  insisted that the burden of proof was on me to justify why a change should be made; it's not enough for me to say that I personally don't mind a reduction. That still applies the other way around: if all melee sets should get buffed, that still needs to be justified. It's not enough to say that you personally wouldn't mind it.

I'm not the one that said they needed a buff - well aside from EM but that's a no brainer, I'm going off of what I'm being told in here.  Clearly there are underperforming sets though.  I think a combination of buffs through various mechanics like insight would bring them up without breaking anything.

 

Like I said earlier, 

I still don't see how it is currently unhealthy for the game to boost the underperforming sets while leaving TW alone.

 

There is nothing in my experience in the game currently that screamed its diseased with imbalance stemming from TW.

 

In fact that never comes up.

 

Your experience may be different, i concede that, but how do you determine what is necessary vs what is right, vs what is desired?

[Infinitum]

20 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I feel like the genie is out of the bottle with IO's though. 

 

I mentioned it earlier, but I think it would be fascinating to get data on IO use like we did AT stats, would be an interesting metric to see how common it is.

genie is out of the bottle and it's hot just like christina Aguilera, I get with them all the time.

[Morgrum]

Jesus Christ this trend is still going?

Ok ya'll know what I am to old to care about what anyone thinks about me so let me tell it to you straight.

You are a bunch of children crying because you think someone else's toy is better.

You could instead of going hey lets help out the rest of the sets and bring them up to a better standard.

But nope you try to common core everything down then you cry that that makes the game to easy if it isnt.

No it does not IO's and Incarnate levels make the game easier.

If you do not want the game to be easy don't use them then increase your level and team size and stop trying to punish the rest of us.

I for one play this game as a fun experience I do not want this game to go back to what it was at release because that was a miserable experience.

The devs do not want us to grind through that type of experience either because we get double experience if we want and we aren't forced to go on miserable raid after miserable raid to unlock our incarnate levels.

 

I am not built to do the insane things some folks have done since I am a Tanker and I enjoy grouping with my Coalition.

Guess what those few folks who build those extreme builds might just enjoy doing what they are doing.

Instead of going wow that's cool but not for me you point fingers and cry foul foul foul!

You haven't once spoken about the Blasters who Solo master ITF's, or the Masterminds/Controllers who go around ruining GM's and task forces by themselves. 

This is exactly the same type of conversations that happened which killed EM.

You folks are exactly the type of folks who kept posting numbers because they were not happy that others were happy.

It is nothing but vindictive jealousy on what a few folks have done so you want to blanket punish everyone who uses a set.

 

So how about you play the game as you want and leave the rest of us alone.

How about you start new postings such as Dual Blades how can we help the set or Katana needs these improvements

Because if you had your way and the game became an unfun experience again myself and other casual players like myself who are vast amount of players btw will leave.

This is an old game with a nostalgic feeling to it but I for one will drop it immediately if the Dev's go your route and try to make a second job again; and you can bet others would do the same.

Then you can enjoy trying desperately to run the content that you wanted to be harder in leagues you cannot fill.

 

Infinitum stop posting man just let them continue here on their own and beat their chest until the get TW's nerfed into oblivion.

After which they will start on the next set which they do not like and push for nerfs on them and continue on until they are the only ones left on these servers.

They are miserable people let them be miserable without your comments to give them a chance to beat their chest and act superior to you in replies because they do not like something.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Morgrum

[Indystruck]

The only miserable person here seems to be you, mate.

[Megajoule]

EM was overnerfed.  I don't think anyone here disputes that.

That does not mean that no powers can ever be nerfed ever again, for any reason.

It's also disingenous, IMO, to claim that just because it's not a literal I Win button, or that other powers can - under very particular circumstances - also do broken things, that TW does not deserve a closer look and perhaps some adjustments to bring it in line with other melee sets.

And above all, "lol whatever I'm having fun wrecking everything with it" is NOT the endorsement or justification you think it is.  Of course you like the set like it is; you've found easymode.   I'm asking you to think about people other than yourself.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Megajoule

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

EM was overnerfed.  I don't think anyone here disputes that.

That does not mean that no powers can ever be nerfed ever again, for any reason.

It's also disingenous, IMO, to claim that just because it's not a literal I Win button, or that other powers can - under very particular circumstances - also do broken things, that TW does not deserve a closer look and perhaps some adjustments to bring it in line with other melee sets.

And above all, "lol whatever I'm having fun wrecking everything with it" is NOT the endorsement or justification you think it is.  Of course you like the set like it is; you've found easymode.   I'm asking you to think about people other than yourself.

Thats kinda what we are asking also, because... AGAIN the game isnt rotting from within from the "cancer" that is TW.  just leave people alone and try to buff the other sets. then everyone wins, and everyone is happy.

 

Its not easymode either, none of it is, its a Super Hero Game that makes you feel super, melee was lacking for a long time and with Sets like TW for some - not me even but some, and Rad, Psi, melee has found parity with the other ATs that have been stuck in godmode for over 11 years.

 

I have never seen anyone leave disgusted because someone played TW, but that will happen if it gets nerfed. I can almost promise you that.

[Megajoule]

No, raising the other sets to match is NOT the same thing.  It leads to power creep.  Are you familiar with the term?