Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Infinitum]

Just now, DSorrow said:

That would be a strawman [126].

It would be the truth. Indont want someones first time doing brain surgery doing it on me.

[DSorrow]

Just now, Infinitum said:

It would be the truth. Indont want someones first time doing brain surgery doing it on me.

So you're seriously saying that rebalancing Titan Weapons in the video game City of Heroes is an act comparable to brain surgery? This time, maybe false analogy [53]? Are we trying to check all the boxes on the list?

[Sniktch]

I think it would be an appropriate moment to once again say:

 

Don't bother arguing with Wally, it's a waste of your time; he's not interested in the subject, just 'winning'.

 

Or in older parlance: don't feed the troll.

[Steampunkette]

How can you be an Astrophysicist, Neil DeGrasse, Tyson, if you've never been to SPACE?!

 

'Cause the Numbers are there. And he knows the numbers.

 

Math. It's not that hard and it lines up in the game world pretty damned 

9 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I dont think good ST damage is the problem.  The stated problem is extreme ST damage, right?

 

So it makes sense to target the more extreme aspects first.  

 

ST was the current discussion point, whirling smash and defensive sweep would be part of an AOE point.

No. The stated problem is that the powerset is a bit OP and should be slapped on the wrist.

 

Then a lot of people trying to figure out how it was OP while a couple people declared, apropos of nothing but their own experiences, that it isn't OP at all and might be slightly underpowered and even if it was OP it's not a big deal blah blah blah LET PEOPLE HAVE THEIR FUN OP SETS!

 

The numbers that were brought forward show the set's OP out of the gate, before Momentum ever comes up. *shrugs*

 

Some people are discussing the ST capabilities of the set 'cause an attempt to "Disprove" the set was OP relied entirely on one person's very flawed ST chain (Made up of AoE) only being 10% more effective than Energy Melee's ST Chain.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

So you're seriously saying that rebalancing Titan Weapons in the video game City of Heroes is an act comparable to brain surgery? This time, maybe false analogy [53]? Are we trying to check all the boxes on the list?

Yeah thats exactly what I said there.

[Steampunkette]

3 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

So you're seriously saying that rebalancing Titan Weapons in the video game City of Heroes is an act comparable to brain surgery? This time, maybe false analogy [53]? Are we trying to check all the boxes on the list?

Also worth noting: All analogies are imperfect, but this one is just... *chef's kiss*

 

"You're not allowed to perform Brain Surgery until you've performed Brain Surgery! All the books that you've read, the cadavers you've worked with, and training you've undergone is irrelevant. You're not allowed to do brain surgery 'til you've done brain surgery!"

[DSorrow]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah thats exactly what I said there.

Well, in that case the only thing I can ask you to do is stop trolling because that doesn't help your argument nor does it help solve the potential issue of how to slightly tone down TW if it happens. Other than that, I think that wraps up any reason to continue discussing with you. Have a good one, partner.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Steampunkette said:

How can you be an Astrophysicist, Neil DeGrasse, Tyson, if you've never been to SPACE?!

 

'Cause the Numbers are there. And he knows the numbers.

 

Math. It's not that hard and it lines up in the game world pretty damned 

No. The stated problem is that the powerset is a bit OP and should be slapped on the wrist.

 

Then a lot of people trying to figure out how it was OP while a couple people declared, apropos of nothing but their own experiences, that it isn't OP at all and might be slightly underpowered and even if it was OP it's not a big deal blah blah blah LET PEOPLE HAVE THEIR FUN OP SETS!

 

The numbers that were brought forward show the set's OP out of the gate, before Momentum ever comes up. *shrugs*

The current point at that particular part of the thread was ST damage. 

 

If you are going to get people on board with nerfs, they will have to be extremely carefully considered, and targeted.

 

Otherwise you are just going to get a lot of /jrangers.

 

This set is live, not beta, the bar for nerfing is consequently higher. 

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

How can you be an Astrophysicist, Neil DeGrasse, Tyson, if you've never been to SPACE?!

 

'Cause the Numbers are there. And he knows the numbers.

Yeah cause astrophysics hasnt been wrong or changed ever has it?  Its always static, right?

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Well, in that case the only thing I can ask you to do is stop trolling because that doesn't help your argument nor does it help solve the potential issue of how to slightly tone down TW if it happens. Other than that, I think that wraps up any reason to continue discussing with you. Have a good one, partner.

Im not trolling, but ok.

[Infinitum]

6 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Also worth noting: All analogies are imperfect, but this one is just... *chef's kiss*

 

"You're not allowed to perform Brain Surgery until you've performed Brain Surgery! All the books that you've read, the cadavers you've worked with, and training you've undergone is irrelevant. You're not allowed to do brain surgery 'til you've done brain surgery!"

I wouldnt want to be the learning experience.  If you do hey, have at it.

[Steampunkette]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The current point at that particular part of the thread was ST damage. 

 

If you are going to get people on board with nerfs, they will have to be extremely carefully considered, and targeted.

 

Otherwise you are just going to get a lot of /jrangers.

 

This set is live, not beta, the bar for nerfing is consequently higher. 

Then the answer to the current point is:

 

Infinitum's data was severely flawed by his decision to build a Single Target Chain from an AoE chain to compare it to a Single Target Chain used by another set and thus should be disregarded.

 

And now that -that's- cleared up...

[DSorrow]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

If you are going to get people on board with nerfs, they will have to be extremely carefully considered, and targeted.

Definitely. The data indicates that TW is in need of some down tuning, but I'd hate to see it go the way of EM because I genuinely like the set. That's why I'd like to move the discussion from "is TW OP" to "how it should be tuned", unless someone can provide evidence that would contradict the currently well argued position that TW is at least slightly too good.

[Infinitum]

15 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Definitely. The data indicates that TW is in need of some down tuning, but I'd hate to see it go the way of EM because I genuinely like the set. That's why I'd like to move the discussion from "is TW OP" to "how it should be tuned", unless someone can provide evidence that would contradict the currently well argued position that TW is at least slightly too good.

I think a lot more testing needs to be done, build variables, enhancement variables by a qualified team then tested by the community.

 

Its pretty much the way Homecoming does things, so I have faith they will do a good job here.

[MunkiLord]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

5. We are comparing it to EM which is slow and broken, if TW was as OP as you guys arr claiming the average user shouldnt miss a beat in any build they put together.

This is the sticking point. This claim makes no sense. Any set can become sub par or get passed by other sets in certain circumstances. And for an AoE chain, that is excellent ST damage.

 

On the facts, you're wrong. It's been demonstrated time and time again. The claim that TW isn't overperforming compared to other sets is proven to be wrong. But that's ok. I know it over performs, I just don't care and I don't want it to be nerfed. You don't need to have any other reason than that.

 

But sticking to a factually incorrect position is hurting your credibility on the topic. You don't want it nerfed because you like it as is? Cool, stick with that, it's more than enough reason. And you don't have to explain your position further than that. I'm certainly not going to explain my preference beyond that.

[Sniktch]

On that particular subject, I have to point out:  Titan actually got buffed either just before or shortly after its release.  During its beta run, Build Momentum only had a 5-second uptime and did not overwrite current Momentum - it acted entirely like what you got off scoring a hit, and the damage/ToHit buff was also just as brief.  This got changed because people kvetched about it being 'different' than every other build-up.

 

I think this was a fairly bad mistake, and possibly a big component of why Titan is over-the-top right now.  It either permits 15-ish seconds of continuous sped-up attacks via slow-hit, pop Build as the standard falls off, keep murdering, or 10 seconds of lead-off time.  Both of these turbocharge the set - and while it's not gonna be common, if you CAN hit the Recharge cap, Build Momentum's recharge is 18 seconds.  Even if not, you're still looking at an uptime cycle of 10/35 via SOs, and the 35 is best thought of as 5 'attack cycles' consisting of 1 slow and 4 fast.  And the fast is REALLY fast - the posted numbers for Momentum attack times looks like Claws without Eviscerate.

 

Overall, the set needs most of its freebies taken away OR its very large baseline damage buffs to be scaled back universally OR its Momentum time messed with, whether via returning Build Momentum to 5 seconds or via Steampunkette's suggested tweak.  Note those are OR, not AND - any one of those could put it strong but not completely fucking broken.  All of them would be an EM-grade clusterbomb. 

[Hopeling]

1 hour ago, DSorrow said:

I just tested this with my TW/Elec. 161.25% Global recharge, T3 Agility, purple sets (without the straight Damage enhancement) in AoD / RA and a full set of Obliteration in Whirling Smash. I'm getting something under 1.5 seconds gap with this chain. It's significant enough that it's definitely over 1 second, but I can't be bothered to take a video and analyze the frames to say exactly how long the gap is.

 

Paying some  more attention into my attacks, what I think happens with TW attack recharges is that they start recharging when their Momentum animation time is over.

On further testing, I think you're right. I have two big gaps trying to run Rend-Arc-Whirl-Rend-Arc-Whirl during BM - one gap between Whirl and Rend, a second gap between the second Rend and Arc. Build Momentum actually expires before I get through it. With more global recharge (I already have +156%), I'd believe you can get through all six attacks, but it doesn't look plausible to get it gapless.

 

I had thought that FT seemed to start recharging before its animation was done, but it must have been in my head, because it lines up just about perfectly now when I'm trying to replicate it.

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

I think if the double follow through is the big offender maybe that is what should be looked at first, instead of more sweeping changes set wide.

Double FT is not the big offender. Every attack in the set overperforms, even with lower amounts of recharge or in AoE situations. You to run a chain like SlowCB-Rend-FT-Arc-TS-SlowCB-Rend-FT-Whirl-TS with just Hasten and SOs, which only does about 6% less DPS than Rend-FT-Arc-CB-FT. Gaining 6% DPS going from SOs to a purpled-out build is not at all unreasonable.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Hopeling

[Steampunkette]

16 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Definitely. The data indicates that TW is in need of some down tuning, but I'd hate to see it go the way of EM because I genuinely like the set. That's why I'd like to move the discussion from "is TW OP" to "how it should be tuned", unless someone can provide evidence that would contradict the currently well argued position that TW is at least slightly too good.

Yay! Progress! 

 

I think the initial suggestion I made on page 1 is a good step. I don't think it's -enough-, based on the raw numbers that have been provided since then, but I'd prefer to nerf it not enough than too much. Bringing it down a tiny bit (10% DPS during Momentum which covers about 75-85% of it's overall DPS) would at least reign it in as an outlier while still leaving it ahead.

 

Other steps could be more targeted on specific powers. Like removing the DoT from both Follow Through and Whirling Strike. But I -kind- of feel like it should maybe remain on Follow Through? DoTs only 'really' help on hard Targets like Elite Bosses and AVs, enemies with enough hit points to survive to the end of multiple DoTs. There's just not enough AoE Hard Target situations to warrant giving Whirling Strike a DoT on top of all it's other benefits.

 

But I'd rather see these changes in a vacuum rather than all together. A step by step process with one little change, a monitoring of the result, and then another small change. Just so we don't wind up overnerfing.

[Hopeling]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

I think a lot more testing needs to be done, build variables, enhancement variables by a qualified team then tested by the community.

Again, what kind of testing? I really don't know what kind of data you would consider worthwhile here. Any plausible data is either going to be in a sterile testing environment like a pylon, or heavily confounded by other effects like the powers of your teammates.

 

So far, the evidence we have is:

• TW is the most popular scrapper set at 50, and disproportionately popular for Tankers/Brutes once you get past the iconic pairings (Inv/SS) and farm builds (Spines/Fire).
• TW consistently posts top times on pylons, TF solo runs, and other metrics of solo performance.
• TW attacks numerically outperform other sets across the board.

I would say that gets the "sterile testing environemnt" side pretty well covered. I agree that some kind of data for performance in a team environement would help, but I really don't know what kind of metric to even use for that. Do you have any ideas?

[Infinitum]

21 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

On further testing, I think you're right. I have two big gaps trying to run Rend-Arc-Whirl-Rend-Arc-Whirl during BM - one gap between Whirl and Rend, a second gap between the second Rend and Arc. Build Momentum actually expires before I get through it. With more global recharge (I already have +156%), I'd believe you can get through all six attacks, but it doesn't look plausible to get it gapless.

 

I had thought that FT seemed to start recharging before its animation was done, but it must have been in my head, because it lines up just about perfectly now when I'm trying to replicate it.

Double FT is not the big offender. Every attack in the set overperforms, even with lower amounts of recharge or in AoE situations. It takes very little global recharge (~20%, plus Hasten) to run a chain like CB-Rend-FT-Arc-TS-Cb-Rend-FT-Whirl-TS, which only does about 6% less DPS than Rend-FT-Arc-CB-FT. Gaining 6% DPS from an extra 70% recharge is not at all unreasonable.

Wait what?  If lack of FT invalidates my test because it is the best ST?  Why wouldnt it be the culprit when the rest of the set couldnt pull it off?  If thats the only power I need to validate my test?

 

What would my dps be if you take out whirling smash and just run FT AoD and RA?  Can you figure that up?

Edited September 13, 2019 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

11 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Again, what kind of testing? I really don't know what kind of data you would consider worthwhile here. Any plausible data is either going to be in a sterile testing environment like a pylon, or heavily confounded by other effects like the powers of your teammates.

 

So far, the evidence we have is:

• TW is the most popular scrapper set at 50, and disproportionately popular for Tankers/Brutes once you get past the iconic pairings (Inv/SS) and farm builds (Spines/Fire).
• TW consistently posts top times on pylons, TF solo runs, and other metrics of solo performance.
• TW attacks numerically outperform other sets across the board.

I would say that gets the "sterile testing environemnt" side pretty well covered. I agree that some kind of data for performance in a team environement would help, but I really don't know what kind of metric to even use for that. Do you have any ideas?

So, we are back on pylon data and scrapper popularity as the metrics for proving the actual performances in game are OP?

 

That doesnt have it covered.  The drawbacks to the set cant be measured by any of that, im not sure they can be.  But they do exist.

[Hopeling]

Just now, Infinitum said:

Wait what?  If lack of FT invalidates my test because it is the best ST?  Why wouldnt it be the culprit when the rest of the set couldnt pull it off?  If thats the only power I need to validate my test?

 

What would my dps be if you take out whirling smash and just run FT Aid and RA?  Can you figure that up?

I'm saying there are chains that use FT only once per cycle and do almost as well as running it twice per cycle. I don't think there are any chains that don't use FT at all and do very well, certainly not while also skipping CB and TS.

 

I honestly don't see how to make a gapless attack chain using just FT, Arc, and RA, so I don't think I can answer your question directly. But for comparison, using your previous chain Rend-Arc-Whirl-Rend-Arc-Whirl, you do 598 damage base during Build Momentum. If your Build Momentum chain is Rend-FT-CB-Arc-FT-Rend-CB-FT, you deal 731 damage in the same time period. So if the same proportions hold, your 295 DPS would turn into about 400 DPS.

[Hopeling]

15 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

So, we are back on pylon data and scrapper popularity as the metrics for proving the actual performances in game are OP?

 

That doesnt have it covered.  The drawbacks to the set cant be measured by any of that, im not sure they can be.  But they do exist.

Yes, I agree that doesn't have it covered. That was the point of that comment you quoted. I'm asking you to help me come up with ideas for what kind of data would cover it. I honestly don't know what metric to use for performance in regular team play; I have my own subjective feelings about it, but yours are different, and there's no clear way to reconcile them. If you feel that it's fine in regular play, by what measure are you saying that? How could that be made objective?

Edited September 13, 2019 by Hopeling

[Heraclea]

It will be a sad day for me if I have to strip and delete my TW/WP scrapper.  But she's sitting on IOs my other characters could use, and will never be played again.  I may try and start over on a different set of servers. 

 

I'm for a blanket ban on this sort of busybody thread.  Bad enough when it's the PvP crowd. 

[Galaxy Brain]

29 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

It will be a sad day for me if I have to strip and delete my TW/WP scrapper.  But she's sitting on IOs my other characters could use, and will never be played again.  I may try and start over on a different set of servers. 

 

I'm for a blanket ban on this sort of busybody thread.  Bad enough when it's the PvP crowd. 

Would you rather we buff all other sets by 20% damage across the board and make the game even more trivial?

 

Edit: Sorry if I came off as crass, but what we are talking about it to keep TW as a top tier set but just reel it in slightly out of the "S" tier it stands alone on.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Galaxy Brain