Feedback: Testing Melee Set Performance

[Haijinx]

52 minutes ago, nihilii said:

It just so happens the current speed record for a solo apex TF is held by a TW/bio scrapper.

 

This is a useful anecdote at least.

 

I still haven't seen the awesome sustained ST promised damage at level 35, but i can see how it could happen once i get more slots and IOs

 

I do get annoyed every time i have to que up some slow af ST attack to deal with a half dead minion though.

 

Its to the point I'm thinking of throwing a couple slots in brawl.

[Zolgar]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This is a useful anecdote at least.

 

I still haven't seen the awesome sustained ST promised damage at level 35, but i can see how it could happen once i get more slots and IOs

 

I do get annoyed every time i have to que up some slow af ST attack to deal with a half dead minion though.

 

Its to the point I'm thinking of throwing a couple slots in brawl.

I solo GMs on my Titan/bio scrapper. It has great sustained single target DPS once you've got your build done enough to have a good recharge time on Build Momentum, and preferably also not need more than 3 or 4 powers in your chain.

 

For those nearly dead minions, honestly, I just throw daggers at them (since I keep a large stock of envenomed daggers on me at all times).

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

No. It isn't what "usually" happens. What usually happens is a handful of die-hard fans of the power or powerset being nerfed flock to the forums to defend it and 90% of the rest of the population doesn't care enough to wade into the forum and discuss it. Most of the time even the most severe nerf just puts the powerset back in-line with other powersets used by the same archetypes.

 

There have been a handful of situations where it was too extreme. Energy Melee being the most egregious one.

 

And no. I haven't played Titan Weapons to 50. But I also don't have to in order to tell you that it's outperforming at 22. Your maxed out Kin/Rad can destroy even con spawns at 50 but I'm doing it at 22. My other brutes (Superstrength, Kinetic Melee, Katana, Dark Melee, and yeah, even Energy Melee) didn't start wiping out even level spawns at the speed the TW character does until they were in their 30s or early 40s. Sooner if I started slotting them up before that point with attuned Sets.

 

Now tell me how fast an Empath/Energy wipes out spawns. Or FF/Dark. Your example of 'Anyone can wipe out even-con spawns!' relied on a major damage outlier for Defenders through Kin. It's a liiiiiiittle on the telling side!

 

Reducing the amount of DPS that TW does in their Momentum by .5 seconds worth of DPS spread wouldn't "DESTROY" them. That's a logical fallacy appeal to emotion. 

 

And Pylons aren't perfect. But they are the single best test we have to determine a powerset's single target DPS because they're tough, they don't fight back hard enough to waste time responding to the damage, and they don't try to run. Yeah, in a mission enemies run away, or reposition, or whatever to cost you maximum possible DPS. That affects -all- attack sets, though, and TW less than most because it has larger AoE to hit things in (Both in range and width).

 

 

To be fair to the die-hard defenders, those calling for nerfs tend to also be a small core of die-hards. 

 

The pylons become non linear as times get faster.  This is a huge issue.  

 

Then add in human error, build considerations etc.  

 

I have no doubt TW has the highest ST damage for melee based on the results.  The problem is assigning a value to it.  

[Hopeling]

One thing that nobody seems to have brought up yet is that TW outright does not follow the design formulas, and instead all the attacks deal more damage than they're "supposed to". For a Brute, here is how much damage the attacks "should" do for their recharge and area, versus what they actually do:

• Defensive Sweep: 25.7 formula, 30.4 actual (18% extra)
• Crushing Blow: 68.4 formula, 75.2 actual (10% extra)
• Titan Sweep: 50.5 formula, 59.6 actual (18% extra)
• Follow Through: 81.7 formula, 89.9 actual (10% extra)
• Rend Armor: 121.8 formula, 134 actual (10% extra)
• Whirling Smash: 33.4 formula, 48 actual (44% extra)
• Arc of Destruction: 91.6 formula, 108.3 actual (18% extra)

So by the game's own rules, every TW attack deals at least 10% more damage than it "should". Follow Through and Whirling Smash then get a DoT effect for free in addition to breaking the damage formula, and unlike Fire which gets DoTs instead of secondary effects, these powers also have a high chance for knockdown.

 

The numbers make it look like the devs thought the Momentum mechanic was going to be a drawback, so they gave it better raw numbers to compensate. I don't think this works out in practice; Momentum means TW is blazing fast for 4 attacks out of 5, which is a pretty major perk. It's only a serious drawback when you can't reliably land a hit, or when you have to move so often that you can't chain attacks together.

 

Now, in fairness, many attacks break the damage formula in some way. For example, Head Splitter is calculated as if it were a pure ST attack rather than a narrow cone, so its damage isn't reduced for being an AoE power; the ability to hit 2-3 targets occasionally is "free". Or for another example, Foot Stomp's damage matches what it would do if it had a 10-foot radius, when in fact it has a 15-foot radius, so it gets that increased radius "for free". Many sets have one or two powers that get free bonuses like this.

 

But TW is the only set I know of where all the attacks break the damage formula. Whirling Smash is especially egregious: it get its extra radius "for free" just like Foot Stomp, then gets the 10% TW bonus, then gets a DoT too! With the DoT, it deals as much average damage as Foot Stomp, in the same area, with nearly the same chance for knockdown (75% vs 80%), with a much shorter recharge and half the animation time - even though Foot Stomp is already an unusually good power!

 

So I think there is a real argument to be made that TW is overpowered in an absolute sense, because the original devs overcompensated for the Momentum mechanic. I don't want to see the set nerfed into the ground either; it's one of my favorite power sets and I've played it from 1 to 50 three times. But if nothing else, I think it would be very reasonable to just remove the DoT component of Follow Through and Whirling Smash; these are very good powers already, and there's no clear thematic reason they should have a DoT at all.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Hopeling

[Steampunkette]

Hopeling's got it in the Math.

 

If there's a nerf, I hope it'll be the one I suggested: A slight penalty to DPS without lowering the DPA or DPE.

[Snakebit]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah, I see you saying that yet it pops up EVERYWHERE as if a beacon for every pariah Set or AT with a cause to try to nerf something that's actually working well and as intended.  My fire tank sucks at pylon testing but can clear a mob as fast as my TW brute can.

 

I guess when the Rikti pylons grow legs and start spawning in mobs then it may matter to how 99 percent of the rest of the game is played.

Get over It.

[Haijinx]

My guess is those bigger numbers are there to compensate for the out of momentum DPA.

 

The set feels completely different when momentum is up, though I'm not sure 80% is the real uptime in actual play.  Doesn't feel that high.

 

Seems a hard mechanic to design around. 

 

The dots i have no idea tbh, dots tend to be better on paper though, since people don't usually let them tick out.  See the complaints about Savage underperforming.

 

 

[Infinitum]

27 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

One thing that nobody seems to have brought up yet is that TW outright does not follow the design formulas, and instead all the attacks deal more damage than they're "supposed to". For a Brute, here is how much damage the attacks "should" do for their recharge and area, versus what they actually do:

• Defensive Sweep: 25.7 formula, 30.4 actual (18% extra)
• Crushing Blow: 68.4 formula, 75.2 actual (10% extra)
• Titan Sweep: 50.5 formula, 59.6 actual (18% extra)
• Follow Through: 81.7 formula, 89.9 actual (10% extra)
• Rend Armor: 121.8 formula, 134 actual (10% extra)
• Whirling Smash: 33.4 formula, 48 actual (44% extra)
• Arc of Destruction: 91.6 formula, 108.3 actual (18% extra)

So by the game's own rules, every TW attack deals at least 10% more damage than it "should". Follow Through and Whirling Smash then get a DoT effect for free in addition to breaking the damage formula, and unlike Fire which gets DoTs instead of secondary effects, these powers also have a high chance for knockdown.

 

The numbers make it look like the devs though the Momentum mechanic was going to be a drawback, so they gave it better raw numbers to compensate. I don't think this works out in practice; Momentum means TW is blazing fast for 4 attacks out of 5, which is a pretty major perk. It's only a serious drawback when you can't reliably land a hit, or when you have to move so often that you can't chain attacks together.

 

Now, in fairness, many attacks break the damage formula in some way. For example, Head Splitter is calculated as if it were a pure ST attack rather than a narrow cone, so its damage isn't reduced for being an AoE power; the ability to hit 2-3 targets occasionally is "free". Or for another example, Foot Stomp's damage matches what it would do if it had a 10-foot radius, when in fact it has a 15-foot radius, so it gets that increased radius "for free". Many sets have one or two powers that get free bonuses like this.

 

But TW is the only set I know of where all the attacks break the damage formula. Whirling Smash is especially egregious: it get its extra radius "for free" just like Foot Stomp, then gets the 10% TW bonus, then gets a DoT too! With the DoT, it deals as much average damage as Foot Stomp, in the same area, with nearly the same chance for knockdown (75% vs 80%), with a much shorter recharge and half the animation time - even though Foot Stomp is already an unusually good power!

 

So I think there is a real argument to be made that TW is overpowered in an absolute sense, because the original devs overcompensated for the Momentum mechanic. I don't want to see the set nerfed into the ground either; it's one of my favorite power sets and I've played it from 1 to 50 three times. But if nothing else, I think it would be very reasonable to just remove the DoT component of Follow Through and Whirling Smash.

Nobody is running around screaming OMG the game is unplayable because TW has a schtick though.  Its fun, nobody cares that its fun and overpowered feeling, it really isnt any more overpowered than rad or psi from how it feels to me, in fact its way more of a challenge to play to capitalize on its niche. 

 

If you mess up you are done for a few seconds, nerf it it gets worse when you screw up.

[Infinitum]

21 minutes ago, cejmp said:

Get over It.

as a die hard /EM player from yore and now... No.  Why don't you nerf herders go away and stop trying to fix something that isnt broken.

[EyeLuvBooks]

'TW has at least 10% more damage than comparable sets.' That's nice...doesn't seem game-breaking though. Certainly not nerf-worthy.

 

'The record on Pylons runs is held by a TW/Bio Brute.' Also nice...but I don't see anyone screaming that Bio needs a nerf. There are TWO sets at play here so we have to consider BOTH.

 

Etc, etc, ad naseum.

 

Face it...TW was one of the last sets implemented on Live (along with or close to Staff and Street Fighting IIRC) so we have the least amount of data on it. So more people like to play it...so what? How much of that comes from 'I can have a weapon bigger than my whole body!'? How much of it is just for the cool factor (something which TW has a lot of, you must admit)?

 

Until we see a much larger gap in performance ACROSS THE BOARD (because some sets just perform better when fully IO'd out and that's as much the IO mechanics as the power set's) I'm dininclined to mess with something.

 

Good Lord, people...we JUST got our game back! Can we NOT mess it up for a while at least? Players are having fun. LET THEM HAVE THEIR FUN!

[Steampunkette]

27 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Nobody is running around screaming OMG the game is unplayable because TW has a schtick though.  Its fun, nobody cares that its fun and overpowered feeling, it really isnt any more overpowered than rad or psi from how it feels to me, in fact its way more of a challenge to play to capitalize on its niche. 

 

If you mess up you are done for a few seconds, nerf it it gets worse when you screw up.

This kind of tells me that you're not arguing in good faith, here, Infinitum. You've got the numbers presented to you showing that the set is OP and now you're moving the goalposts to deflect it. "Well no one is complaining!" in a thread where people are discussing appropriate ways to nerf it slightly.

 

But only slightly. "Slap on the Wrist" is the actual phrase used.

 

And now it's a 'challenging mechanic' that if you screw up you're done. And the nerf I offered would help make it slightly -less- challenging by extending the time you can queue powers by 0.1 seconds and the overall duration of Momentum by .5 seconds.

 

3 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

'TW has at least 10% more damage than comparable sets.' That's nice...doesn't seem game-breaking though. Certainly not nerf-worthy.

 

'The record on Pylons runs is held by a TW/Bio Brute.' Also nice...but I don't see anyone screaming that Bio needs a nerf. There are TWO sets at play here so we have to consider BOTH.

 

Etc, etc, ad naseum.

 

Face it...TW was one of the last sets implemented on Live (along with or close to Staff and Street Fighting IIRC) so we have the least amount of data on it. So more people like to play it...so what? How much of that comes from 'I can have a weapon bigger than my whole body!'? How much of it is just for the cool factor (something which TW has a lot of, you must admit)?

 

Until we see a much larger gap in performance ACROSS THE BOARD (because some sets just perform better when fully IO'd out and that's as much the IO mechanics as the power set's) I'm dininclined to mess with something.

 

Good Lord, people...we JUST got our game back! Can we NOT mess it up for a while at least? Players are having fun. LET THEM HAVE THEIR FUN!

"10% more damage" on three powers. Almost 20% on two others. And 44% on a third. And that's not including the two DoT effects tacked on in addition. In fact going over the numbers the average overage is 18%. The set, on the whole, is 18% more damaging before you even add on the free damage from the dots...

 

Eh. Seems pretty cut and dried to me that TW overperforms. My suggestion would narrow the overperforming gap by 10% during Momentum Windows... That's not -so- bad...

[EyeLuvBooks]

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

This kind of tells me that you're not arguing in good faith, here, Infinitum. You've got the numbers presented to you showing that the set is OP and now you're moving the goalposts to deflect it. "Well no one is complaining!" in a thread where people are discussing appropriate ways to nerf it slightly.

 

But only slightly. "Slap on the Wrist" is the actual phrase used.

 

And now it's a 'challenging mechanic' that if you screw up you're done. And the nerf I offered would help make it slightly -less- challenging by extending the time you can queue powers by 0.1 seconds and the overall duration of Momentum by .5 seconds.

 

"10% more damage" on three powers. Almost 20% on two others. And 44% on a third. And that's not including the two DoT effects tacked on in addition. In fact going over the numbers the average overage is 18%. The set, on the whole, is 18% more damaging before you even add on the free damage from the dots...

 

Eh. Seems pretty cut and dried to me that TW overperforms. My suggestion would narrow the overperforming gap by 10% during Momentum Windows... That's not -so- bad...

I have to agree that the most popular suggestion for a fix seems the least invasive which is a good thing. I'm simply not convinced that the change is necessary. Yes, changing ALL the other sets to bring them up to par is more work but as JFK once said 'We choose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard.'

 

We shouldn't shy away from the RIGHT choice simply because it's the hardest one. That's laziness

[Steampunkette]

2 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

I have to agree that the most popular suggestion for a fix seems the least invasive which is a good thing. I'm simply not convinced that the change is necessary. Yes, changing ALL the other sets to bring them up to par is more work but as JFK once said 'We choose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard.'

 

We shouldn't shy away from the RIGHT choice simply because it's the hardest one. That's laziness

Bringing all the other sets up means further trivializing all the content for everyone. Unless we're going to also increase the HP of all NPCs across the board by 18%?

 

That's not the Right Choice. It's just the one that feels 'good' because Power Creep.

[Corruption]

Have any of you even played TW on an end game team? It's great for sustained ST damage against tough targets. It can be a downright chore for everything else when you don't have momentum. Mobs often melt before you even get off a single attack. Not to mention the set has only one good AoE attack, which requires momentum. 

 

If Pylon times are being used to justify a nerf, then TW shouldn't be the only powerset in the conversation. 

[EyeLuvBooks]

3 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Bringing all the other sets up means further trivializing all the content for everyone. Unless we're going to also increase the HP of all NPCs across the board by 18%?

 

That's not the Right Choice. It's just the one that feels 'good' because Power Creep.

I'm willing to see ideas on Test because more data is almost always useful. However, how about we split the difference? Cut the DPS for the most egregious powers in TW first and test it before making gross changes. If that brings the performance more into line without angering thousands of players it might be enough

[nihilii]

13 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

Also nice...but I don't see anyone screaming that Bio needs a nerf.

There is no worse blind man than the one who doesn't want to see. 😉 I think you'll find there's no shortage of people who think /bio is top dog by a wide margin (especially on scrappers, due to combining an aggro aura with a damage aura and a -res aura).

As for theme arguments, I think it's pretty cool 277 players made the concept of having a badass weapon while covered in gunk work for them (that's the number of titan/bio scrapper taken to lvl 50). Kinda strange it's more popular than Wolverine (108 claws/regen scrappers), or indeed any other scrapper combo save for Elec/Shield by a factor of two, but what do you know. I'm no comic book expert. 😛

[EyeLuvBooks]

4 minutes ago, nihilii said:

There is no worse blind man than the one who doesn't want to see. 😉 I think you'll find there's no shortage of people who think /bio is top dog by a wide margin (especially on scrappers, due to combining an aggro aura with a damage aura and a -res aura).

As for theme arguments, I think it's pretty cool 277 players made the concept of having a badass weapon while covered in gunk work for them (that's the number of titan/bio scrapper taken to lvl 50). Kinda strange it's more popular than Wolverine (108 claws/regen scrappers), or indeed any other scrapper combo save for Elec/Shield by a factor of two, but what do you know. I'm no comic book expert. 😛

Bio and TW are two of the newest sets. Old veterans (like me) who played on Live likely had a Claws/Regen and played them to death (I know I did). Water is also likely a popular set for the same reason. How many Nature toons out there right now? Same thing. The oldest are less popular because they've been played and to death (plus Wolverine isn't nearly as popular as he was 15 years ago).

[Steampunkette]

5 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

I'm willing to see ideas on Test because more data is almost always useful. However, how about we split the difference? Cut the DPS for the most egregious powers in TW first and test it before making gross changes. If that brings the performance more into line without angering thousands of players it might be enough

I think my nerf would be more effective... You'd retain the abnormally high DPA and DPE, the weight and impact of the different attacks, but the overall dps during the Momentum would drop by 10%. Leaving the set 8% above most others by the game's balancing mechanics.

 

It would still be an outlier, that way, but one that is a bit less outlying. It would essentially reduce 3 of the powers from 'Too High' damage to on-scale, but leave the set with a couple nice hitters and one big hitter to give it character. Hits harder overall, but not by as much.

 

8 minutes ago, nihilii said:

There is no worse blind man than the one who doesn't want to see. 😉 I think you'll find there's no shortage of people who think /bio is top dog by a wide margin (especially on scrappers, due to combining an aggro aura with a damage aura and a -res aura).

As for theme arguments, I think it's pretty cool 277 players made the concept of having a badass weapon while covered in gunk work for them (that's the number of titan/bio scrapper taken to lvl 50). Kinda strange it's more popular than Wolverine (108 claws/regen scrappers), or indeed any other scrapper combo save for Elec/Shield by a factor of two, but what do you know. I'm no comic book expert. 😛

I have a Kin/Bio who uses Minimal FX on Bio to be a "Wind" brute. Obviously I didn't take Ablative Carapace for her, and though I do use the life-steal powers I don't really acknowledge them in-character.

 

I imagine there are a lot of people who break off the big chunks with minimal FX and RP things like Parasites.

[Hopeling]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

My guess is those bigger numbers are there to compensate for the out of momentum DPA.

 

The set feels completely different when momentum is up, though I'm not sure 80% is the real uptime in actual play.  Doesn't feel that high.

Right, that was my guess too.

 

I didn't say it has 80% uptime, I said that 4 attacks out of 5 are fast. I mean that literally: one Momentum window is long enough to use 4 attacks if you line them all up gapless, eg Rend-FT-Arc-CB-FT-repeat. Accounting for movement and imperfect timing and misses, it's still at least 2-3 fast attacks for every slow attack. The DPA is unusually bad outside Momentum, but unusually good inside Momentum; in practice, I think it's wrong to treat that as a net drawback.

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Nobody is running around screaming OMG the game is unplayable because TW has a schtick though.

TW would still have a schtick without DoTs, or with a slightly shorter Momentum window, or even if its damage was just nerfed across the board. "Dealing bonus damage for free" isn't a schtick.

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

If you mess up you are done for a few seconds

Of course you're done for a few seconds if you miss an attack. That's how every power set works. The TW animations feel very slow without Momentum, which is a credit to the animators, but in reality they are merely about as fast as most heavy-hitters in other sets.

 

Without Momentum, TW powers have animation times in the 2.2-2.9s range. For example, Rend Armor has a 2.508s animation time, which means a slow-cast Rend Armor is exactly as slow as Head Splitter or Greater Fire Sword, and also does more damage than either. Few people seem to think that Head Splitter or GFS are inherently terrible attacks. Arc of Destruction with its slow animation has the same DPA as Shatter, and hits a much larger area. Rend Armor with its slow animation has higher DPA than every single Broadsword power. Crushing Blow with its slow animation has DPA that puts it in about the middle of the pack for a t2 attack.

 

Momentum is a perk, but even without it, TW attacks are pretty good. The fact that you sometimes don't get Momentum is not much of a penalty.

1 hour ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

'TW has at least 10% more damage than comparable sets.' That's nice...doesn't seem game-breaking though. Certainly not nerf-worthy.

10% more damage per hit, much more for some powers, especially once you count the DoTs. But then TW is also, in practice, able to pump out more attacks per minute than most other sets thanks to Momentum - it hits faster AND it hits harder. And it gets lots of knockdown, it's good at both ST and AoE, and it has -res and even +def if you want it.

 

39 minutes ago, EyeLuvBooks said:

The oldest are less popular because they've been played and to death

This is mostly false. Theme pairings are still wildly popular, especially when they involve launch sets: for example, the top two most popular blasters are Fire/Fire and Energy/Energy; the most popular tanker is Inv/SS; the most popular Mastermind is Bots/FF. In fact, /Regen is still the most popular Scrapper secondary overall. /Bio is only the third-most popular Scrapper secondary, yet TW/Bio is the second-most popular scrapper combo, above anything involving Regen. Other new combinations like TW/Rad or Psi/Bio or Rad/Bio or even new theme pairings like Rad/Rad are much much less popular than TW/Bio is. The popularity of TW/Bio cannot be attributed to just the fact that it's two new sets; it's that that specific combo is extremely strong.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Hopeling

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

This kind of tells me that you're not arguing in good faith, here, Infinitum. You've got the numbers presented to you showing that the set is OP and now you're moving the goalposts to deflect it. "Well no one is complaining!" in a thread where people are discussing appropriate ways to nerf it slightly.

 

But only slightly. "Slap on the Wrist" is the actual phrase used.

 

And now it's a 'challenging mechanic' that if you screw up you're done. And the nerf I offered would help make it slightly -less- challenging by extending the time you can queue powers by 0.1 seconds and the overall duration of Momentum by .5 seconds.

 

"10% more damage" on three powers. Almost 20% on two others. And 44% on a third. And that's not including the two DoT effects tacked on in addition. In fact going over the numbers the average overage is 18%. The set, on the whole, is 18% more damaging before you even add on the free damage from the dots...

 

Eh. Seems pretty cut and dried to me that TW overperforms. My suggestion would narrow the overperforming gap by 10% during Momentum Windows... That's not -so- bad...

Thats not at all what I did, I'm simply stating that TW isnt any more OP than rad or psi melee, or contollers IOd out and a lot more.  In fact TW is a trick to play and if you mess up its way more unforgiving than other sets.

 

I am talking normal average joe gameplay.  Nerfing it would screw with it too much and honestly its ignorant to suggest a nerf on a set that plays well just to satisfy sets that don't.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Infinitum

[Haijinx]

How does TW perform with other sets relatively.

 

Mine is WP, not bio.

 

Also I think the IO vs SO problem is being glossed over by detractors.

[Infinitum]

58 minutes ago, Corruption said:

Have any of you even played TW on an end game team? It's great for sustained ST damage against tough targets. It can be a downright chore for everything else when you don't have momentum. Mobs often melt before you even get off a single attack. Not to mention the set has only one good AoE attack, which requires momentum. 

 

If Pylon times are being used to justify a nerf, then TW shouldn't be the only powerset in the conversation. 

This right here, that gets it.

[Haijinx]

Actually i disagree.  It has 2 good cones and a great pbaoe.  

 

Saying it only has one good aoe is disingenuous.  

 

The pbaoe only works with momentum though, which should be kept in mind.

 

 

 

 

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Thats not at all what I did, I'm simply stating that TW isnt any more OP than rad or psi melee, or contollers IOd out and a lot more.  In fact TW is a trick to play and if you mess up its way more unforgiving than other sets.

 

I am talking normal average joe gameplay.  Beefing it would screw with it too much and honestly its ignorant to suggest a nerf on a set that plays well just to satisfy sets that don't.

Normal Average Joe Gameplay or IOd to the 9s doesn't matter when the BASELINE POWERS are between 10% and 44% more damaging -outside- of Momentum than similar powers would be.

 

And momentum makes them attack (but not recharge) roughly twice as fast.

 

":It's not more powerful than Rad or Psi!" well then fucking nerf them back toward the level of other sets, too. 

 

You just keep moving the goalposts and coming up with other excuses or comparisons or whatever. Now you're comparing a Baseline Titan Weapons damage value to 'IOd out' Controllers... Dude...

 

C'mon. Just acknowledge that they dish out more damage than other powersets by 18%. The values are right there. It won't hurt.

[Haijinx]

I don't think he compared baseline powers to controllers.  He was comparing fast pylon times.