copyrighted chars and npcs in game

[Abraxus]

Too much thinkin', and not enough playin'! 😉

If there is a problem, when/if it actually becomes a problem, they'll let ya know, and it would likely be a name change, or a reset to generic costume pieces.  But, likely not without notice of some kind.  I think we are still a long way from that becoming an issue on anyone's actual radar.  So, have fun, and stop worrying! 🙂

[Ya'dig]

22 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

Green Hungarian Spinach

My new band name. Called it.

[jubakumbi]

13 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

Too much thinkin', and not enough playin'! 😉

If there is a problem, when/if it actually becomes a problem, they'll let ya know, and it would likely be a name change, or a reset to generic costume pieces.  But, likely not without notice of some kind.  I think we are still a long way from that becoming an issue on anyone's actual radar.  So, have fun, and stop worrying! 🙂

I know you mean well, but some people worry, it is thier nature, they cannot change it.

The 'stop worrying' thing may as well be like yelling at a child to stop crying.

No such thing in my own worlrd as 'too much thinking', I find that to be a terribly negative PoV, personally.

 

The real fear being shown around this is the loss of the game itself.

Some people fear big companies with IP enough that they really think using thier IP will cause the game to be lawered into the ground.

 

IMO, the only way to combat that fear is with facts that condridict the reason for it to be feared.

 

All of the precendents we have right now in modern geeldom, from my PoV, would equate this game, like all the others with homages and clones, as cosplay.

HC is apparently in wide communication with NCSoft, based on Tony V's goodbye message, so I think we would have already been told if this was a sticking point for anyone.

There is no rule.

 

So right now, other than the vague fear of 'wht if', there are no real facts that support the reason to fear homages and clones, because no one is doing anything different than other games, other IPs, etc. here.

Edited September 12, 2019 by jubakumbi
speeling

[Rodumas]

1 minute ago, jubakumbi said:

I know you mean well, but some people worry, it is thier nature, they cannot change it.

The 'stop worrying' thing may as well be like yelling at a child to stop crying.

No such thing in my ownrd as 'too much thinking', I find that to be a terribly negative PoV, personally.

 

The real fear being shown around this is the loss of the game itself.

Some people fear big companies with IP enough that they really think using thier IP will cause the game to be lawered into the ground.

 

IMO, the only way to combat that fear is with facts that condridict the reason for it to be feared.

 

All of the precendents we have right now in modern geeldom, from my PoV, would equate this game, like all the others with homages and clones, as cosplay.

HC is apparently in wide communication with NCSoft, based on Tony V's goodbye message, so I think we would have already been told if this was a sticking point for anyone.

There is no rule.

 

So right now, other than the vague fear of 'wht if', there are no real facts that support the reason to fear homages and clones, because no one is doing anything different than other games, other IPs, etc. here.

So...stirring up hatred based out of fear? Pompous accusations and demeaning rhetoric  towards other players based out of fear? Well......that seems to be the winning ticket these days, I suppose.

[Abraxus]

4 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

I know you mean well, but some people worry, it is thier nature, they cannot change it.

The 'stop worrying' thing may as well be like yelling at a child to stop crying.

No such thing in my ownrd as 'too much thinking', I find that to be a terribly negative PoV, personally.

 

The real fear being shown around this is the loss of the game itself.

Some people fear big companies with IP enough that they really think using thier IP will cause the game to be lawered into the ground.

 

IMO, the only way to combat that fear is with facts that condridict the reason for it to be feared.

 

All of the precendents we have right now in modern geeldom, from my PoV, would equate this game, like all the others with homages and clones, as cosplay.

HC is apparently in wide communication with NCSoft, based on Tony V's goodbye message, so I think we would have already been told if this was a sticking point for anyone.

There is no rule.

 

So right now, other than the vague fear of 'wht if', there are no real facts that support the reason to fear homages and clones, because no one is doing anything different than other games, other IPs, etc. here.

 

My comments were more directed at the concern over the copyrighted characters, as opposed to the game itself.  There is currently no policing of this, and unless there is a problem from an IP holder, there likely won't be.  So, in my facetious way, I was encouraging folks to play as they have been, without so much regard for who their toon might bear a remote, or striking resemblance to in the real world. 

There are other threads to express concern for the future of the game itself. 🙂

 

[jubakumbi]

Just now, Rodumas said:

So...stirring up hatred based out of fear? Pompous accusations and demeaning rhetoric  towards other players based out of fear? Well......that seems to be the winning ticket these days, I suppose.

There are the creatives that just attack others for not being 'good enough' to come up with new ideas, yes.

Most of these threads trying to get clones/homages to stop though are based around the idea Disney will sue HC into irrelevance for 'allowing' players to make homages and clones, IMO.

The IP holders would have to go after every single MMO and they know it.

There is no reason to do this.

So many poeple forget Marvel made it's attack at a time it was almost dead in the water, but still habor hate toward some big company for having sued someone, somwwhere, of an IP issue.

[Abraxus]

Yeah.  I doubt even if Marvel knew of this new instance of CoH, they would have much less concern about it than they did back in the day.  I think they are much too big to be concerned about a big green fellow, with black hair, and purple pants, named "The Incredible Bulk" in a 15 year old game. 😉

Edited September 12, 2019 by Abraxus

[Rodumas]

5 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

There are the creatives that just attack others for not being 'good enough' to come up with new ideas, yes.

Most of these threads trying to get clones/homages to stop though are based around the idea Disney will sue HC into irrelevance for 'allowing' players to make homages and clones, IMO.

The IP holders would have to go after every single MMO and they know it.

There is no reason to do this.

So many poeple forget Marvel made it's attack at a time it was almost dead in the water, but still habor hate toward some big company for having sued someone, somwwhere, of an IP issue.

I just saw a Captain James T. Kirk running around Ap. Shiver me timbers CBS GON GET US NOW!

This is, of course not directed towards you, just a general comment on the futility of making posts that serve no one except to say: 

"I am Annointed, I am Saved. The rest of you heathens are going straight to Homage Hell!!!!!!"

Edited September 12, 2019 by Rodumas

[Abraxus]

Yup.  If I made a small character, and named him Will Robinson, and dressed him in old sci-fi garb; that who the heck ever owns the IP for Lost in Space would ever know, let alone give a flying crud! They'd probably be happy just to be thought of in the first place!🤣

Edited September 12, 2019 by Abraxus

[jubakumbi]

2 minutes ago, Rodumas said:

I just saw a Captain James T. Kirk running around Ap. Shiver me timbers CBS GON GET US NOW!

This is, of course not directed towards you, just a general comment on the futility of making posts that serve no one except to say: 

"I am Annointed, I am Saved. The rest of you heathens are going straight to Homage Hell!!!!!!"

Yeah.

Also funny....

 

So, at the same time we have people advocating we do not make clones and homages, we have people that want to remove the unique name restriction....allowing for more reuse of all names...this community does not speak in a single voice, no where close...

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, jubakumbi said:

There are the creatives that just attack others for not being 'good enough' to come up with new ideas, yes.

Most of these threads trying to get clones/homages to stop though are based around the idea Disney will sue HC into irrelevance for 'allowing' players to make homages and clones, IMO.

The IP holders would have to go after every single MMO and they know it.

There is no reason to do this.

So many poeple forget Marvel made it's attack at a time it was almost dead in the water, but still habor hate toward some big company for having sued someone, somwwhere, of an IP issue.

Not to mention today the internet is literally polluted with mods/skins of any Marvel/DC/Disney/CBS/NBC et al character you can think of for just about any game you can think of - all freely available for download. 

[jubakumbi]

Just now, ShardWarrior said:

Not to mention today the internet is literally polluted with mods/skins of any Marvel/DC/Disney/CBS/NBC et al character you can think of for just about any game you can think of - all freely available for download. 

That is my whole point.

The basic fear of the type of lawsuit that hit the game so many years ago is simply no longer relevent...the IP holders have even taken big PR hits now for doing it.

IP comapanies don't typically care that much now unless you are trying to make $ off the property, acting like You own the IP, or actively making the IP 'look bad'.

There nothing, nothing that players do in game that would rate any different that a cosplayer at a con.

Yet some people hate these companies so much, they live in fear that all of them are predatory.

 

I just try and find real evidence these people can use to lessen thier fear, no one should live in fear of lawyers, IMO. 🙂

 

[Troo]

On 9/10/2019 at 6:16 PM, cparks7040 said:

I think  speak for all of us when I say we are all gateful to have COH back. im not a lawyer or versed on legal stuff as far as coprights. however I would like to encourge people to not make copyrighted chars using their name or likeness. I dont know who makes the comic con fire farms but I would also encourge those people to change the npcs costumes. I would hate for the game to be shut down because of people using copyrighted chars, it was strickly enforced during live for a reason and I think we should respect that.

I believe that the examples I've seen for comic cons typically avoid using the names of the specific characters. This is sufficient.

Using in game options to mimic costumes is part of fandom. A large green character with purple pants who is strong.. no problem. Naming that character Angry Guy or Smash.. no problem.

[PaxArcana]

22 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

This is based on the very, very, very false assumption that cosplay is not at all creative, takes no effort and has no respect for the creativity of others.

The thing is, Cosplay and copycat-characters are IMO two very different things.

 

...

 

In Champions Online, I had (technically still have, but I haven't logged in in years) a character called Patriot; he's a 14-year-old kid with the basic "Superman package" of powers: flight, invulnerability, super strength.  (I found the juxtaposition of an adolescent with a slight build, but with "super strength" style powers, terribly amusing at the time.)  His costume, as the name implies, is very much a red-white-and-blue derivative of the U.S. Flag.  His original costume is basically a white duster/jacket, over jeans and a t-shirt (with a star emblem), and a domino mask.  He's just a young kid, he had a limited allowance, so he couldn't afford a "real" superhero costume. not when he was just getting started.  I also have alternate costumes that are more "full comic-book/movie level" stuff, for when he's more established, maybe has a mentor, etc.

 

And ...  I do have one alternate costume, that is as close as I could get to Superman's actual costume (but still with Patriot's face, mask, and skinny middle-school-kid build).  In-universe?  He's a kid, and it's his halloween costume.  And also, his name is still Patriot, not Superboy or similar - even though the costume is unmistakable.

That is cosplay.  (And I only ever trotted it out FOR Halloween or similar Events in-game, because it was in-character cosplay.)

 

...

 

That's where the difference is, IMO.  If someone makes a character that is always "Sup3r-Man" (or whatever), and is always in one or another Superman costume ...?  That's not cosplay.  That's just a copycat.

 

Do your cosplay in an alternate costume slot, and don't use the name itself?  I'm good with it.  I'll probably applaud you if you pull it off really well - especially if you pick a more-obscure version (e.g., the red-and-black Soviet version of Superman, from Red Son).

 

But if you're just another knockoff?  Meh.  Get original.

Edited September 12, 2019 by PaxArcana

[GM Capocollo]

1 hour ago, Xeres said:

No, I don't want to hear "we'll know it when we see it".  That doesn't work because this should be common knowledge for people to avoid (assuming they actually try and look this stuff up).

In common-law jurisdictions like the US and the UK, there is a two-pronged test for proving copyright infringement of visual works.  Barring the simpler situation where the defendant has outright said "I plan to copy the plaintiff's work", the plaintiff must prove (1) that the defendant had access to the plaintiff's work, and (2) substantial or probative similarities between the two works.  Unfortunately, the second prong is by definition subjective in a "we'll know it when we see it" way; there's no strict formula or rubric that you can use to show substantial similarity.  The distinction between homage, unintentional similarity, transformative use and plagiarism can be very fuzzy.

[ShardWarrior]

9 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

That is my whole point.

The basic fear of the type of lawsuit that hit the game so many years ago is simply no longer relevent...the IP holders have even taken big PR hits now for doing it.

IP comapanies don't typically care that much now unless you are trying to make $ off the property, acting like You own the IP, or actively making the IP 'look bad'.

There nothing, nothing that players do in game that would rate any different that a cosplayer at a con.

Yet some people hate these companies so much, they live in fear that all of them are predatory.

 

I just try and find real evidence these people can use to lessen thier fear, no one should live in fear of lawyers, IMO. 🙂

 

Fear mongering is a typical tactic used to try and scare people into submission.  All one need do is read the posts from most of the anti-cosplay crowd to see what their real motivation is - they don't like it, think people shouldn't do it and want to dictate to other people how to play.

[ShardWarrior]

10 minutes ago, GM Capocollo said:

In common-law jurisdictions like the US and the UK, there is a two-pronged test for proving copyright infringement of visual works.  Barring the simpler situation where the defendant has outright said "I plan to copy the plaintiff's work", the plaintiff must prove (1) that the defendant had access to the plaintiff's work, and (2) substantial or probative similarities between the two works.  Unfortunately, the second prong is by definition subjective in a "we'll know it when we see it" way; there's no strict formula or rubric that you can use to show substantial similarity.  The distinction between homage, unintentional similarity, transformative use and plagiarism can be very fuzzy.

Not to mention things like parody, fair use etc.  Transformative use is an excellent one you mentioned most people don't know about. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[jubakumbi]

8 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

But if you're just another knockoff?  Meh.  Get original.

That is a fine explaination of your opinion on the subject.

Put simply, not everyone is gifted with the creative abilities you posess.

Does that mean they should be faced with this ridcule?

[Troo]

On 9/11/2019 at 8:24 AM, GM Capocollo said:

There's more companies and authors out there than Disney and WB.  Even if they're too big to care, a lot of companies aren't.

Anyone who thinks they are too big to 'care' is mistaken. Use of copyright or trade marked materials is what it is.

 

Powers - Costumes - Names - Catch phrases. Copying all of that could be problematic. Enabling behavior could be liable.

 

Blocking names could be the simple/easy solution and also then documents a good faith effort AND to curb objectionable activities (like inappropriate words in names).

 

Edits shown in italics

Edited September 12, 2019 by Troo

[PaxArcana]

12 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

ll one need do is read the posts from most of the anti-cosplay crowd to see what their real motivation is

... I could say the same about you.  Indeed, that you're insisting on calling the pro-Law side of the debate "anti-cosplay" is rather telling, IMO.

[Abraxus]

7 minutes ago, Troo said:

Anyone who thinks they are too big to 'care' is mistaken. Use of copyright or trade marked materials is what it is.

 

Powers - Costumes - Names - Catch phrases. Copying all of that could be problematic. Enabling behavior is liable.

 

Yeah, and I could be struck by a bolt of lightning, or win the lottery.  The chances of either are probably about equal to anyone out there with a valuable IP, coming to the Homecoming CoH server to look for stuff that they consider theirs to protect.  Not saying it's impossible, just improbable.  Mainly because it's not worth the time, or effort.  If, by some small chance it does happen, we will adapt, adjust, and overcome.  It's what we have always done.

[Troo]

1 minute ago, Abraxus said:

 

Yeah, and I could be struck by a bolt of lightning, or win the lottery.  The chances of either are probably about equal to anyone out there with a valuable IP, coming to the Homecoming CoH server to look for stuff that they consider theirs to protect.  Not saying it's impossible, just improbable.  Mainly because it's not worth the time, or effort.  If, by some small chance it does happen, we will adapt, adjust, and overcome.  It's what we have always done.

agreed.

it's just a simple thing to avoid or be proactive about.

[PaxArcana]

4 minutes ago, Abraxus said:

Yeah, and I could be struck by a bolt of lightning, or win the lottery.

Do you go out in thunderstorms, waving a big metal pole around, out in the middle of an empty field?  No?

 

Of course not, that would be stupid - it would be inviting that stroke of lightning.

 

IMO, condoning copycats is similar.  🙂

[Frostbiter]

6 minutes ago, PaxArcana said:

Do you go out in thunderstorms, waving a big metal pole around, out in the middle of an empty field?  No?

 

Of course not, that would be stupid - it would be inviting that stroke of lightning.

 

IMO, condoning copycats is similar.  🙂

I went out one time waving a lottery ticket. I only got wet.

[Abraxus]

I'm just trying to say that folks should have fun playing, and be concerned about things of a legal nature when/if it becomes necessary.  Worrying about low odds stuff will just make you old before you're time!  And, for the record, I'm not encouraging anyone to do anything.  I'm just advocating not being critical of those who engage in "homage" behavior.  If it becomes a thing, it will sort itself out, and not bring "DOOM" to our server in the process.