Scrapper Melee Primary Testing: "Standard" environment

[Hopeling]

20 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

So if i follow correctly, the punching bag damage was upped to discourage too much herding, but now people dying during runs has become a real concern?

Yes. I'm... not super happy about this turn of events, because I had hoped to benchmark pure damage separately from damage-slash-mitigation. But I don't see a great way to avoid it; too much herding disrupts what we're trying to measure. Right now, it looks like a single spawn is basically always survivable, but double pulls get really sketchy.

 

Maybe if I reduced the damage slightly, but didn't go all the way down to a single t1 attack...? I could try taking away the ranged attack and see what happens.

[Hopeling]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Body Mastery and Hasten can be taken by anyone as well, but I personally think they are a bit game changing for certain sets. We should definitely include them in at some point tho.

So far, the only set that seems to be at all limited by endurance is TW, at least out of the ones I've tried. The blue bar got kind of low a couple times with War Mace, but never so low that I actually had to stop attacking. I'm sure that will change with more recharge and/or more toggles though.

[Galaxy Brain]

24 minutes ago, Hopeling said:

Yes. I'm... not super happy about this turn of events, because I had hoped to benchmark pure damage separately from damage-slash-mitigation. But I don't see a great way to avoid it; too much herding disrupts what we're trying to measure. Right now, it looks like a single spawn is basically always survivable, but double pulls get really sketchy.

 

Maybe if I reduced the damage slightly, but didn't go all the way down to a single t1 attack...? I could try taking away the ranged attack and see what happens.

Yeah, ideally we were trying to aim for several individual fights over the course of a mission but that has proven to be hard to produce. Some sets have mitigation that allows for herding up through spawns and getting better times. Though, if anything that is a testament to their design I suppose?

 

So @Haijinx, its not so much that dying is a problem so much as it seems certain sets have the ability to herd safely and push the test in ways others cannot 🤔

Edited September 23, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Hopeling]

I edited the Punching Bags to take away their throwing knives.

 

I ran with Electric Melee for a while. Without spammable knockdown, I died a lot even on single spawns, which is what made me think removing an attack was the right choice. After that change, I got times of 6:26, 6:07, 6:17, 5:44, 6:51, and 5:46. Very wide swings. Single-target was a very visible bottleneck, especially the EB, who would be at 2/3 health when the rest of his spawn was dead.

 

I've also done some runs with TW at 5:26, 6:20, 5:52, 5:43, and 5:12. Also pretty wide swings, and the fastest average so far, although not by much. Even with no recharge bonuses, TW can actually spend endurance fast enough to run out, unlike every other primary so far. And man, without any recharge bonuses, I can blow all my attacks during Build Momentum and then have nothing to use for a solid few seconds. I did not take Defensive Sweep, because I don't usually take it in my actual builds, but I think it would fill out the attack chain nicely, and the defense buff would probably allow significant herding.

 

Also got some runs with War Mace at 6:08, 6:19, 6:12, 6:01, and 5:38.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Hopeling

[Galaxy Brain]

@Hopeling, any ideas on what caused the wild swings?

[Hopeling]

For Electric Melee, I think the number of boss spawns can affect the run time pretty significantly, since those are a bottleneck. Also, how much I can get out of each Lightning Rod depends on how many enemies I can gather (without dying) when it finishes recharging.

 

For TW, I'm less sure. Mob placement is maybe a factor - if the whole spawn gathers nicely, I can blow them away with AoE, but if they're spread out and don't all aggro together, it takes much longer.

[Galaxy Brain]

Hm try again with defensive sweep. It is a great opener as it is the 2nd fastest outside momentum, gives you +Def, and also has multiple hit chances to help gain momentum.

[Without_Pause]

2 hours ago, Hopeling said:

I edited the Punching Bags to take away their throwing knives.

 

I ran with Electric Melee for a while. Without spammable knockdown, I died a lot even on single spawns, which is what made me think removing an attack was the right choice. After that change, I got times of 6:26, 6:07, 6:17, 5:44, 6:51, and 5:46. Very wide swings. Single-target was a very visible bottleneck, especially the EB, who would be at 2/3 health when the rest of his spawn was dead.

 

I've also done some runs with TW at 6:08, 6:19, 6:12, 6:01, and 5:38. Also pretty wide swings, and the fastest average so far, although not by much. Even with no recharge bonuses, TW can actually spend endurance fast enough to run out, unlike every other primary so far. And man, without any recharge bonuses, I can blow all my attacks during Build Momentum and then have nothing to use for a solid few seconds. I did not take Defensive Sweep, because I don't usually take it in my actual builds, but I think it would fill out the attack chain nicely, and the defense buff would probably allow significant herding.

 

Also got some runs with War Mace at 6:08, 6:19, 6:12, 6:01, and 5:38.

Are we to believe TW and WM had the same times in the same order or is that a copy/paste?

[Galaxy Brain]

Typo most likely

[Haijinx]

Titan Weapons running out of End would definitely jive with my experience leveling one up, also the fact you spend a lot of time staring at all your icons recharging.  Momentum+High End use makes everything bursty.  

[Hopeling]

11 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Are we to believe TW and WM had the same times in the same order or is that a copy/paste?

10 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Typo most likely

Whoops, yes, I copied the wrong line.

[Hopeling]

16 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Hm try again with defensive sweep. It is a great opener as it is the 2nd fastest outside momentum, gives you +Def, and also has multiple hit chances to help gain momentum.

I tried it again with Defensive Sweep. Got three runs at 5:08, 4:42, and 5:28, significantly faster than without (by ~35 seconds, average). This was primarily because I was able to survive a lot more herding, though: if I don't try to herd, it doesn't seem to improve my kill speed at all.

[Galaxy Brain]

It seems that sets that are able to herd can effectively leverage their survival which is a huge edge....

 

I think we should follow @Sir Myshkin's slotting for WP as it's the best bet for survival, though I would say needing to use the revive should be a DNF given that we are seeing good results from primary mitigation. 

 

I also think that we should cut the tests down to 5 per primary. Still allow a run or two to familiarize, then record 5 times as we prepare for more secondaries and other factors added in.

 

Thoughts?

[Hopeling]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I would say needing to use the revive should be a DNF given that we are seeing good results from primary mitigation. 

I agree, especially since the Willpower rez gives a large 90-second buff and makes you untouchable. I'm not sure if intentionally dying for the buff is a net gain considering the time spent retoggling, but it seems like a silly thing to allow.

12 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I also think that we should cut the tests down to 5 per primary.

I'm OK with that. We can always gather more data later if we decide we need more precision.

[TheAdjustor]

3 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It seems that sets that are able to herd can effectively leverage their survival which is a huge edge....

 

I think we should follow @Sir Myshkin's slotting for WP as it's the best bet for survival, though I would say needing to use the revive should be a DNF given that we are seeing good results from primary mitigation. 

 

I also think that we should cut the tests down to 5 per primary. Still allow a run or two to familiarize, then record 5 times as we prepare for more secondaries and other factors added in.

 

Thoughts?

No sense discarding anything is there ?  If it's amenable we could do this as google sheets everybody could maintain their own times and just copy paste into the master.

[Galaxy Brain]

After reviewing the build from Sir Myshkin, I came up with the following slotting:

 

 

Most attacks = 3 Dam / 1 Acc / 1 End Red / 1 Rech

Parry Style Powers = 2 Dam / 2 Def / 1 Acc / 1 End Red (for the moment, subject to change on other parries)

 

High Pain Tolerance = 3 Heal / 3 Res

Mind over Body = 1 End Red / 3 Res

Fast Healing / Health = 3 Heal

Indomitable Will = 1 End Red

Rise to the Challenge = 3 Heal / 1 End Red / 1 Taunt / 1 ToHit debuff

Quick Recovery / Stamina = 3 End Mod

Heightened Senses = 1 End Red / 3 Def

Combat Jumping = 1 Def

Swift/Hurdle = 1 Run / 1 Jump

 

Anything without slotted enhancements (except for SPRINT) is not used in the tests to keep variables to a minimum. This means I did not use:

• Confront
• Resurgence (if I died, I restarted the mish and made note)
• Strength of Will
• Pool powers besides Combat Jumping
• Ancillary / Epic Powers

 

I re-ran Battle Axe and Broadsword with the new /WP slotting, starting the clock in the hallway where you first see enemies / when I take my first swing and followed roughly this route each time:

 

 

1 & 2 can always be herded, 3 & 4 can always be herded, and 5 & 6 can always be herded.

 

Depending on the spawns / bosses, I can sometimes round up 6 -> 7 after finishing off half of the 5+6, and keep going somewhat non stop till 11. Otherwise I could round up some combo of 7/8/9, the rest of 9 -> 10, and then finish with 11.

 

Results of 5 runs each:

 

 

This surprised me as I did more runs, but while Battle Axe took more damage / had a death, it was actually faster thanks to keeping enemies bouncing more often instead of giving them windows to run away. Herding up more groups with Broadsword was easy as pie, but that also ate into time that could have been spent swinging at enemies. The last column reflects this where it shows the spread. Broadsword has a 9.28 sec spread where BA has 13.48, making BS more consistent currently. 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Lord_Cyclone91]

Okay, I gave this a try using the Galaxy's suggested slotting for War Mace, and Willpower.

 

 

Spoiler

Trying to insert a picture of the slotting. It's Galaxy's setup in the original, except I had HPT slotted with 2 Health ,1 DamRes and IW had 1 End, 3 Def. 

 

I'll use the above to convey the slotting

 

All attacks = 3 Dam / 1 Acc / 1 End Red / 1 Rech

 

High Pain Tolerance = 2 Heal / 1 Res

Mind over Body = 1 End Red / 3 Res

Fast Healing / Health = 3 Heal

Indomitable Will = 1 End Red / 3 Def

Rise to the Challenge = 3 Heal / 1 End Red 

Quick Recovery / Stamina = 3 End Mod

Heightened Senses = 1 End Red / 3 Def

Combat Jumping = 1 Def

Swift/Hurdle = 1 Run / 1 Jump

 

Used Sprint between major herd points, but otherwise not at all. 

 

Other Pool powers not used and Confront was not taken. 

 

I started the timer when I started down the first hallway and stopped on mish complete. 

 

I tended to herd 1 and 2 bottom together, 2 top and 3, then 4 and 5.  The to 6 and on around as the schematic shows. 

 

Had some quite varying times, a couple of god awful runs in the middle with numerous misses and had to chase runners.  Finished up well with the last two runs, both of which seemed to have a boss or 2 fewer in the spawns, and each run had some nice crits. 

 

Took a couple of practice runs prior to these ten.  

 

1. 6:18

2. 6:02 - good run with some nice crits

3. 6:38 - bad, bad lots of misses and an extra boss - chased down a runner

4. 6:46 - horrible - tons of misses, extra boss and 2 runners

5. 6:16 

6. 6:01 - clean run, some nice crits

7. 6:27 - just okay, a few misses and 1 runner

8. 6:21 - kinda meh, several misses

9. 5:58 - very good run, lots of crits, no runners several crits on WM and CC

10. 5:55 - excellent run, tons of crits, light on bosses in the spawns

 

I did get down to below 1/3 health a number of times (down to a sliver a couple of times), but managed no deaths in these runs.  Happened mostly when I grabbed a couple of extra mobs around area 7 and 8.  Only a couple of truly close calls, tough.  I would say that overall the health bar stayed above 1/2 most of the time. 

 

I will try a set with the above only using a 3 - slotted Hasten. 

[Galaxy Brain]

Thanks for the data @Lord_Cyclone91! 

 

The spread looks very tight there around the 6 min mark, but none close to 5:30ish...

 

I havent gotten to WM yet personally, but does it lack a bit of AoE compared to Axe?

[Hopeling]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I havent gotten to WM yet personally, but does it lack a bit of AoE compared to Axe?

It's comparable to BA, maybe slightly better if you can really abuse the wider cone on Shatter. Crowd Control is Pendulum with slightly lower damage but a slightly faster recharge, Whirling Mace deals slightly more than Whirling Axe on the same recharge, and Shatter has a 45-degree arc to Cleave's 19 degrees (again with less damage and faster recharge).

[Lord_Cyclone91]

8 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Thanks for the data @Lord_Cyclone91! 

 

The spread looks very tight there around the 6 min mark, but none close to 5:30ish...

 

I havent gotten to WM yet personally, but does it lack a bit of AoE compared to Axe?

 

Yeah, I don't know if I could get it down to 5:30.  Those last two runs were pretty close to "nothing went wrong" for this driver.  I couldn't turn a lap like ol' Earnhardt either, so some of it is "player." 

 

You know, Mace is a nice mix of ST and AoE, I think.  Whirling Mace has a long activation which hurts its DPA, but otherwise it hits well and Crowd Control is a great wide, wide cone.  Shatter can hit a couple three guys if they are bunched also.  Then the other STs are pretty fast and Clobber might be the best ST attack in the game.   

 

I prefer it to Axe - I love the crunch and all the disorients.  I would guess it's similar and, I think, the spreadsheet gods will tell you its a *little* better in the hands of someone more capable than I.  

[Galaxy Brain]

The times from Axe are much more varied than your Mace run so far though, so it may be Pendulum and the ability to keep runners at bay being good sometimes vs the more consistent performance Mace showed.

 

If Pendulum doesnt crit, or keep foes bounced, then I think it gets much worse times or just dies.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by Galaxy Brain

[Lord_Cyclone91]

Yeah, I'm thinking it was the runners that cost me time primarily and then some uneven crit rates and spawn differences as a secondary effect. 

 

I'll do another set, probably Ice and/or Radiation, as I'm pretty familiar with those.  I'm going to avoid sets I don't have experience with, as that would include some unwanted learning error.  I'm thinking it would be best to stick with what I know and let others better versed in those sets provide numbers.    

 

Are sticking with Willpower?  Seems like we probably should for test control reasons, but I'll do what you guys want. 

[Galaxy Brain]

Yes, we are sticking with Willpower initially as it only has +Recovery as an X factor that would impact the primary set's performance. 

 

We will weave in other secondaries after the initial runs. 

[Lord_Cyclone91]

PROBLEM RESULTS:  These runs are borked. I screwed up this test and had bosses spawning as Lts, so they should be ignored.  I'll leave them for posterity but these do not conform to the test parameters as designed. 

 

Okay, another set this time using Radiation Melee with Willpower, using @Sir Myshkin's slotting. 

 

All attacks = 3 Dam / 1 Acc / 1 End Red / 1 Rech with one exception

 

Irradiated Ground  = 3 Dam/ 1 Acc/ 2 End Red

 

Results:

 

1. 4:51 - (hhmmm...quite a bit faster than Mace...)

2. 4:41 - (again...faster...rechecks settings..all good)

3. 5:02 - not great some misses and an extra boss - 1 runner

4. 4:35 - clean run, good crits  

5. 4:32 - another clean run, 1 extra boss 

6. 5:06 - bad, several misses - 2 runners to chase

7. 4:33  - very good, would have been better without 1 runner

8. 4:45 - good run, several misses and not as many crits

9. 5:08 - horrible, low crits, 1 runner and an extra boss

10. 4:28 - excellent run, solid crits, light  bosses no runners

 

Original run #6 resulted in a DNF with a death at the far cross roads when I pulled the Big Boss together with 3 other bosses and several Lts.  

 

The health on this setup was a bit more precarious than War Mace with not much mitigation. I lived between a 1/4 and 1/2 more than a few times, with several close calls where Siphon saved my rear.  One noteworthy item is just how effective Irradiated Ground is at chewing up the minions.  For the most part I didn't look at them after dropping BU -> Atom Smasher --> Proton Sweep -> Siphon -> Dev Blow - Proton Sweep....then clean up while rebuilding health with Siphon and regen. 

 

Surprised at how much faster it was than War Mace, but it does so at considerably more peril.  Had one death and several more close calls, some of them very close. 

 

Overall, it was fun. 

 

Hope this helps,

 

Cheers

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Lord_Cyclone91
KEY PROBLEM: I screwed up this test and had bosses spawning as Lts, so they should be ignored. I'll leave them for posterity but these do not conform to the test parameters as designed. I'm so sorry for the screw up. I'll have real figure later.

[Haijinx]

Radiation Melee seems strong.  I just don't like the clouds.