DELETE Hasten, SLIGHTLY ALTER all enemies, SLIGHTY ALTER all player powers

[Steampunkette]

3 minutes ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

Yes. In a balanced game that is true. City of Heroes is not a balanced game. Therefore nerfing things for balance concerns is a little different. The question is whether or not Hasten is making the game actively worse due to its existence. If the answer is not objectively no, then it's irrelevant. The reason is that, while yes, optimally, Hasten should exist in your build, the games difficulty is tuned to which point that you can perform far far worse then optimally and complete all content. 

 

Combat suppression wasn't a nerf exactly. People where whining about how hard it was to control travel powers in combat and that they didnt want to turn them off. Thus combat suppression was born. 

 

Your right about Fitness, but the significant difference between Hasten and Fitness is that fluent combat without Fitness was almost impossible. With hasten, the only advantage is a term of power, which as I mentioned before, is nearly if not completely irrelevant in the balance scheme of City of Heroes. 

 

That is only a single part of the argument he is making. He is simultaneously arguing that this should occur (I could agree), and also that Hasten be levy to a significant nerf.

 

And that is, effectively, a nerf. 

 

But you failed to take into account that a big part of a large number of builds are about making Hasten perma. Therefore your suggestion is both a huge nerf to hasten, and a large nerf to a significant portion of the game as it exists now. Your logic for making this change has yet to be fully fleshed out. Actually the logic is closer to half baked then a fully reasonable argument. 

 

You have yet to justify why this is needed. Sure. It's doable, but what does it do and why should it be done. Making Hasten an inherent is a plausible argument, and you're making a decent argument for it, but past that, you also significantly nerf it. I agree to the point that it would be nice to have it as a "Passive" power, but you havent justified the large nerf you're also shoveling on it. 

You're -way- back in the timeline. Also She, not he. I figured the name and the avatar gave it away, but whatevs.

 

And yes. City of Heroes is a Balanced Game. Not entirely balance between powersets or balance between archetypes, but a rough balance between players and NPCs. That's where the whole "Challenge" aspect of gameplay comes in.

 

However due to certain decisions, the challenge has been stomped into the mud. We can either dig it out and clean it up, which is healthy for a game, or we can just keep walking all over it, which is not healthy for a game.

 

There's a reason DOOM gets -really- boring after you type in IDKFA and IDDQD. It's fun to blast through the levels invincible and with all the ammo and weapons, but it cheapens the victories and when you're finished instantly one-shotting everything you're left bored as hell.

[Steampunkette]

3 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

So it's not just a case of 'nerf or delete hasten and all is better' it means having to do huge massive reworks to a lot of powers in the game, like, a massive chunk of them. That's a metric shit-ton of work for, honestly, what seems like very little gain.

 

OR you could not rebalance everything and just make hasten an inherent...which means everyone gets it anyway.

I'm certain it seems like very little gain... to you.

 

If it were determined that "Perma Phantom" and "Perma Dom" were something healthy for the game, those specific powers could be looked at and have their recharge lowered.

 

To rebalance everything around everyone having inherent hasten would be much harder. You'd be rebalancing all the NPCs, leveling values, and then look at the powers and determine if you want to/need to increase the recharge time of essentially every single power to push them out to be harder to get up fast.

 

If we did the delete and add version, a few specific powers would need to be revamped. Inherent Hasten would require a -game- revamp.

[TheAdjustor]

24 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

All that will end up doing is people basically slotting MORE recharge out of their powers and IO bonuses. It doesn't actually do anything good, in fact it now limits build variety EVEN MORE since you're now everyone is going to be focusing on cramming as much recharge into their build as possible to replace the 50% lost by hasten.

 

Also this kills, completely, Perma-dom and Perma Phantom Army. Like I said Perma PA require waaaaayyy more recharge than perma Hasten (like a LOT more recharge) so then in order to still make this achievable you're not just removing hasten, you're also going to have to rebalance dominators and Illusion control so that they can, once again, get back up to the heights they once got to. So deleting hasten is adding even more balancing work.

 

Dominators, all control sets, all blaster primaries and secondaries, every melee primary with buildup, every melee primary that has some sort of +damage, Fury may need looking at, Every buff/debuff set with very long recharge powers.

 

The whole game was designed with 70% hasten slotted with SOs as a consideration

 

Oh and just for referrence seeing as that stupid 20% as an inherent is the same thing keeps being posted.

 

Hasten 3 slotted with common IOs has 167 second recharge and 120 second  duration .  Giving a 71% uptime or a 50% recharge time bonus.

 

This hilites exactly how little thought was put into these proposals.

 

It's a great example of just how bad diminishing returns are on recharge.  Seeing as the 70% recharge bonus and slotting

eliminates 113 seconds of cooldown time, but you have to add yet another 100% to get those last 40 seconds.

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[Epsilon Assassin]

4 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

 

And yes. City of Heroes is a Balanced Game. Not entirely balance between powersets or balance between archetypes, but a rough balance between players and NPCs. That's where the whole "Challenge" aspect of gameplay comes in.

 

Not since IOs were implemented. Ever since IOs were implemented, the balance between characters and NPCs has grown to such a wide divide that it's impossible to consider. We've spent so much time with IOs that trying to say that because pre-11 exists makes the game a "Balanced" game is fairly disingenuous. 

[Megajoule]

6 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

 

Dominators, all control sets, all blaster primaries and secondaries, every melee primary with buildup, every melee primary that has some sort of +damage, Fury may need looking at, Every buff/debuff set with very long recharge powers.

 

The whole game was designed with 70% hasten slotted with SOs as a consideration

 

Oh and just for referrence seeing as that stupid 20% number is the equivalent keeps being posted

 

Hasten 3 slotted with common IOs has 167 second recharge and 120 second  duration .  Giving a 71% uptime or a 50% recharge time bonus.

 

It's a great example of just how bad diminishing returns are on recharge.  Seeing as the 70% recharge bonus and slotting

eliminates 113 seconds of cooldown time, but you have to add yet another 100% to get those last 40 seconds.

 

IMO:  No, the game was pretty obviously designed with the expectation that some powers would be balanced by only being up some of the time.

The playerbase took that and did everything they possibly could to break / get around that design decision, so that they could have those powers up all of the time.

This was, still IMO, clearly not the devs' intent (or they would have made those powers a toggle or whatever from the start), but they just couldn't keep up with a bunch of players dedicated to breaking their original intent/design into little pieces.

 

To people saying, here and now, that this would break Perma________, I say good.

Perma_______ was never meant to be.

[Epsilon Assassin]

3 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

 

To people saying, here and now, that this would break Perma________, I say good.

Perma_______ was never meant to be.

Ok, that's a valid point of view, but why is your opinion more important then mine, which would be that it doesn't break anything, so dont touch it. That's the biggest issue. Not that it can't be done, not that some people would like it dead, but rather why.

 

Is there a reason?

Edited September 26, 2019 by Epsilon Assassin

[QuiJon]

23 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

 

 

EDIT:

 

After continued discussion I have revamped my suggestion to the following:

 

1) Lower Hasten's Cooldown to 200 Seconds

2) Lower Hasten's Recharge Rate Buff to 25%

3) Grant all players a +20% Recharge Rate Buff starting at level 1

 

This would allow Hasten to be 'Perma' with 2 Recharge SOs at 45% Recharge Rate increase. But would also allow people to Double-Stack Hasten if they have enough recharge rate buffs to a full 70% total Recharge Rate Increase over the current baseline.

 

The intent is to split out portions of the buff to make it less attractive, overall, while still retaining it's ultimate function, in the hopes that more people will take the 20% recharge rate increase as 'Enough' of a benefit that they feel they don't -have- to take Hasten.

 

Also I made the title a little less drastic to better reflect the current leaning.

Still completely idiotic. So what you are saying Is that you now want to allow Hasten to be perma with 2 recharge SOs but if people stack in enough global bonuses they can achieve the same 70 percent they once had. 

OOOORRRRRRR Just leave the F'ing power alone it works fine. If you don't like it don't take it. Frankly here is the flaw in your thinking...No one has to take hasten. And if you would be happy just getting 20 percenet bonus and not taking the power, guess what tiger, YOU CAN DO THAT NOW. Simply don't take hasten and slot 20 percent global recharge off the bonuses from IO sets. Pretty freakin simple fix to your dilemma that is already available in game and requires no changes. And also lets those oh us that have no need to push our bullcrap ideas onto other peoples play style keep the power we like how it has been in game since launch. 

 

You are posting a solution to a non-existant problem. No one is forced to take hasten. They take it because they want to. Just like some people take stealth because they want it. Or some people still stack fighting pool on top of a heavy armor set. Stop thinking that we all need your approval for how we want to build our characters and stop thinking that since we don't ask you that you should get powers changed to inflict your derangements upon the rest of the player base. If You don't want hasten, if it doesn't fit into YOUR concept, or YOUR theme, then YOU can skip it. If YOU only want a free 20% recharge bonus, then YOU can plan to earn that 20% when YOU build YOUR character with its IOs and plan to get it from set bonuses. See that accomplishes the same thing as your "plan" and only effects YOU. For some reason you think YOU should get to effect US.

[Megajoule]

10 minutes ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

Ok, that's a valid point of view, but why is your opinion more important then mine, which would be that it doesn't break anything, so dont touch it. That's the biggest issue. Not that it can't be done, not that some people would like it dead, but rather why.

 

Is there a reason?

 

It does break things.  It breaks everything that was "too good" to be up all the time.

If (e.g.) Dominators were meant to have Domination up all the time, Cryptic would released them that way back in 2005.

 

From a technical standpoint, there's not much reason for any power in this game to have any cooldown at all; maybe 1s, simply to avoid spamming the server(s).

The devs chose to give powers cooldowns, many of them considerably longer than that, to balance the game and make it play a certain way, while providing tools to partially mitigate that limit, subject to diminishing returns.

And players have been chasing the "Perma______" "no cooldowns, no downtime, no waiting" dragon ever since.  Because they don't want to play that game, and/or they know better.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Megajoule

[Steampunkette]

12 minutes ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

Not since IOs were implemented. Ever since IOs were implemented, the balance between characters and NPCs has grown to such a wide divide that it's impossible to consider. We've spent so much time with IOs that trying to say that because pre-11 exists makes the game a "Balanced" game is fairly disingenuous. 

Incarnate Enemies are designed to have enough ToHit to punch through Softcapped defenses and require 56% to be softcapped to them rather than the typical 45.

 

So it's disingenuous to say that balance went out the window with IOs, since outside of SR using all toggles, autos, and their Tier 9 it's pretty much impossible for an SO-only character to hit 56% defense. 

 

Just now, QuiJon said:

(An Insulting and Pointless Rant boiling down to ad hominems, some appeals to authority, some appeals to popularity, and a big fat old 'love it or leave it' fallacy tied up in a pretty pink ribbon of 'the problem you have asserted to exist is not a problem because I say it isn't a problem.")

Are you done? 

 

If you are we can talk like adults. If not I'll just put you on ignore, it's healthier for both of us. 

[TheAdjustor]

1 minute ago, Megajoule said:

IMO:  No, the game was pretty obviously designed with the expectation that some powers would be balanced by only being up some of the time.

The playerbase took that and did everything they possibly could to break / get around that design decision, so that they could have those powers up all of the time.

This was, still IMO, clearly not the devs' intent (or they would have made those powers a toggle or whatever from the start), but they just couldn't keep up with a bunch of players dedicated to breaking their original intent/design into little pieces.

 

To people saying, here and now, that this would break Perma________, I say good.

Perma_______ was never meant to be.

I understand where you are coming from but I am sorry but "Perma was never meant to be" is obviously wrong.

 

Rage, practiced brawler,  Active Defenses, fortitude etc are all examples of powers that are meant to be made permanent, they can be made permanent even without global recharge

 

There are a host of powers that can't be made permanent without global recharge but can be made permanent with proper team composition, the fact there are powersets that explicitly provide global recharge as a buff demonstrates this.

 

Kin  for example is a powerset that has been in the game since I1. If you say the devs didn't want anything to be permed you are arguing they designed entire sets around their ability to do so and then ignored it.

 

 

 

[TheAdjustor]

12 minutes ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

Ok, that's a valid point of view, but why is your opinion more important then mine, which would be that it doesn't break anything, so dont touch it. That's the biggest issue. Not that it can't be done, not that some people would like it dead, but rather why.

 

Is there a reason?

She got her head handed to her in this thread

 

Where she argued hasten was unimportant and people didn't take it.

2 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Incarnate Enemies are designed to have enough ToHit to punch through Softcapped defenses and require 56% to be softcapped to them rather than the typical 45.

 

So it's disingenuous to say that balance went out the window with IOs, since outside of SR using all toggles, autos, and their Tier 9 it's pretty much impossible for an SO-only character to hit 56% defense. 

 

Are you done? 

 

If you are we can talk like adults. If not I'll just put you on ignore, it's healthier for both of us. 

 

Yeah that wasn't balancing. Unless you consider that resistance should be the only valid form of mitigation .

[QuiJon]

8 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

IMO:  No, the game was pretty obviously designed with the expectation that some powers would be balanced by only being up some of the time.

The playerbase took that and did everything they possibly could to break / get around that design decision, so that they could have those powers up all of the time.

This was, still IMO, clearly not the devs' intent (or they would have made those powers a toggle or whatever from the start), but they just couldn't keep up with a bunch of players dedicated to breaking their original intent/design into little pieces.

 

To people saying, here and now, that this would break Perma________, I say good.

Perma_______ was never meant to be.

Practiced Brawler is a click power, that is clearly able to be made perma with just its own slotting. Right there that breaks your theory as to the devs intent.  That power has existed that way since day one of the game.

In issue 5 when ED was put into the game yes some perma powers took a hit. However the devs also then implemented IOs which in turn gave additional bonuses to recharge in MANY MANY sets and in great enough different ranges that clearly allowed under the rule of 5 mechanic that multiple levels of buffs would be available on the same characters. And when these levels of buffs allow for some powers to become perma again, many of those powers that you might correctly point out the devs didn't want perma, had their recharge times adjusted to reflect that and prevent them from running perma. Hasten though was NOT one of those powers. Infact through all the changes of ED, IOs, and nerfs to other powers recharges I don't believe hasten has ever had its base recharge time changed. And this is going for literally YEARS between the introduction of IOs at which point perma hasten became a feature again, and the sunset of the game. 

 

And of course I don't have access to the old forums anymore, but I am absolutely sure that at one point Positron was nailed down on a discussion of Perma-domination during one of these rounds of nerfs to T9 recharge timers in armors and such and when asked said that the devs felt that perma-domination was not a factor the devs were not looking at it as a imbalance to the archetype. So stop assuming the devs intent. If you don't like hasten don't use it. Don't assume to tell the rest of us how or when we can use our powers. 

[Megajoule]

1 minute ago, TheAdjustor said:

I understand where you are coming from but I am sorry but "Perma was never meant to be" is obviously wrong.

 

Rage, practiced brawler,  Active Defenses, fortitude etc are all examples of powers that are meant to be made permanent, they can be made permanent even without global recharge

 

There are a host of powers that can't be made permanent without global recharge but can be made permanent with proper team composition, the fact there are powersets that explicitly provide global recharge as a buff demonstrates this.

 

Kin  for example is a powerset that has been in the game since I1. If you say the devs didn't want anything to be permed you are arguing they designed entire sets around their ability to do so and then ignored it.

I don't think they ignored it.  I think they (pick any of the following) weren't aware of the full extent of the issue (probably expecting that while things could be sped up, they couldn't actually be made permanent... right?); had other priorities and matters on their plate; or tried and failed to keep up with the ingenuity and determination of the playerbase to (shall we say) play the game in ways the devs never intended - e.g. the repeated attempts to nerf AE, and how the farmers would always simply find another way.

[Bossk_Hogg]

I'm not sure why so many armchair designers want to completely flip the board on how the game is played. If you don't like IO sets making hasten perma, maybe don't slot them? IO's are basically your own difficulty slider. Try forming a SG with likeminded individuals. Or ask for a "half-strength set bonus" setting for TF's. I'd expect the force feedback proc is, I imagine that is next on the nerf herder hit list. Then defense bonuses in sets. Then Tough/Weave. I'd vastly prefer the devs spend time working on new content, powers, and costumes than rebalance the entire damn game from scratch.

 

 

[Chaos Ex Machina]

22 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said:

I may have a crazy idea . . . no real certainty if it could even be implemented, but . . . 
What if we combine the ideas?

Leave Hasten as-is.

Add a new, inherent Power which offers scaling Recharge benefit, starting around +2.5% at level 1 or 2, which scales up to +20% by level 50 . . . BUT it is flagged to be mutually exclusive with Hasten.  If you take Hasten, this Inherent loses its function until you Respec Hasten out.

I don't know if such mutual exclusivity is even possible given the current limitations of the code, and it might require converting Hasten in to an Auto Power which grants the player access to the Hasten Click Power, just so that the Inherent Recharge buff can "detect" if Hasten has been chosen . . . 

 

How does that sound?  Will it maintain the function and desirability of Hasten for those players who like it the way it is, while also opening up alternative build options for those of us who find Hasten to be too much of a disruption to their concept/fun to take on their characters?

I like this

[Steampunkette]

1 minute ago, Megajoule said:

I don't think they ignored it.  I think they (pick any of the following) weren't aware of the full extent of the issue (probably expecting that while things could be sped up, they couldn't actually be made permanent... right?); had other priorities and matters on their plate; or tried and failed to keep up with the ingenuity and determination of the playerbase to (shall we say) play the game in ways the devs never intended - e.g. the repeated attempts to nerf AE, and how the farmers would always simply find another way.

Far more likely is: After ED they knew they wouldn't be able to take Hasten apart without a maaaaaaassive backlash.

[TheAdjustor]

6 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

I don't think they ignored it.  I think they (pick any of the following) weren't aware of the full extent of the issue (probably expecting that while things could be sped up, they couldn't actually be made permanent... right?); had other priorities and matters on their plate; or tried and failed to keep up with the ingenuity and determination of the playerbase to (shall we say) play the game in ways the devs never intended - e.g. the repeated attempts to nerf AE, and how the farmers would always simply find another way.

Just means you need 3 kins on a team, which oddly enough will also provide all the endurance you would need as a result.

 

My guess is they knew this would happen and were comfortable with it as long as it was part of team play. The problem is they completely misjudged the desires of the player base.  I forget who said it but "If I wanted to be forced into teaming up to kill open world minions I would be playing Aion". People in this game wanted to be powerful standalone.

Edited September 26, 2019 by TheAdjustor

[nihilii]

Recharge isn't a complex problem requiring great levels of ingenuity and determination to break. Each power has a duration and a cooldown, and the recharge cap is base / 5. If (cooldown / 5) < duration, then the power can be permaed.

The idea devs were somehow helpless against the scourge of perma powers or unaware of their repercussions is basically the same as calling them criminally stupid. We're not playing a game where devs acted as very remote entities making changes from the top down without explanation. Castle and others were active on the forums, involved in deep balance discussions, and no matter if one agrees or disagrees with the devs' stance on things, it was at least clear they were NOT criminally stupid.

[Epsilon Assassin]

15 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

 

It does break things.  It breaks everything that was "too good" to be up all the time.

If (e.g.) Dominators were meant to have Domination up all the time, Cryptic would released them that way back in 2005.

 

From a technical standpoint, there's not much reason for any power in this game to have any cooldown at all; maybe 1s, simply to avoid spamming the server(s).

The devs chose to give powers cooldowns, many of them considerably longer than that, to balance the game and make it play a certain way, while providing tools to partially mitigate that limit, subject to diminishing returns.

And players have been chasing the "Perma______" "no cooldowns, no downtime, no waiting" dragon ever since.  Because they don't want to play that game, and/or they know better.

And if they intended for things to not be perma, they would have fixed it in the length of time that they had. Instead specific problematic powers got addressed (IE Domination). 

 

You're making an appeal to an authority that doesn't even really exist anymore, and that, to all appearances, disagree with you.  We're back at square one. You have an opinion. I have one. You have no logical reasons. I have one that involves why involves why work for no reason.

 

So, Why make this change?

15 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Incarnate Enemies are designed to have enough ToHit to punch through Softcapped defenses and require 56% to be softcapped to them rather than the typical 45.

 

So it's disingenuous to say that balance went out the window with IOs, since outside of SR using all toggles, autos, and their Tier 9 it's pretty much impossible for an SO-only character to hit 56% defense. 

 

It isn't though, since multiple types of builds can reach that number with SO's only by using Incarnate abilities. Which is obvious since they are *incarnate* content. 

 

Yes. You're right. This game is balanced around SO's. It always has been, and should always be, but that doesn't change the fact that the developers knew that it would be the bar, disregarded it and created IOs. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Epsilon Assassin

[William Valence]

1 hour ago, Steampunkette said:

If we do the Delete Hasten and shift to 20% global recharge for everyone (Effectively giving everyone unslotted Hasten) the immediate result is the Recharge Meta goes out the window. Recharge will still be a strong mechanic, particularly among set bonuses, but it won't be the end-all-be-all of power.

 

Long term, this would encourage different builds. Different "Optimal Attack Chains" and overall increase the challenge of the game by stripping some of the extreme ends of power away.

 

If we do the "Shift things around" design, very little changes in the short term. In the long term, though, more people who are moving into choosing sets and final builds for characters will run into the 'Smaller gains' appearance, since "Permahasten" just takes you from +20 to +45. And might try something different...

 

It wouldn't be the Optimal Build, but it would at least be variety, which is the spice of life.

If you delete it, and players can't do what they can do now, you will definitely not remove the recharge meta. You will instead create a power gap between sets that have +Rech (I.E rad or time) and sets that don't. Because recharge is universally strong.

 

If you delete it and people can do what they can do now, but instead they do it with an inherent replacement, you are just giving players the power of having hasten without having to take it. Effectively creeping up power for the sake of not having to take Hasten.

 

If you do the "Shift things around" suggestion you put up, Hasten gets stronger, and not hasten gets stronger, and no amount of attempted psychology will convince people that hasten is actually weaker. It's stronger when you first get it than it is when you get it now, and it's stronger at the high end.

 

I'm not poo-pooing the idea "'Cause nothing can change", I'm against it because I believe it doesn't do anything you think or want it to do, for the reasons I've said.

[TheAdjustor]

5 minutes ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

I'm not sure why so many armchair designers want to completely flip the board on how the game is played. If you don't like IO sets making hasten perma, maybe don't slot them? IO's are basically your own difficulty slider. Try forming a SG with likeminded individuals. Or ask for a "half-strength set bonus" setting for TF's. I'd expect the force feedback proc is, I imagine that is next on the nerf herder hit list. Then defense bonuses in sets. Then Tough/Weave. I'd vastly prefer the devs spend time working on new content, powers, and costumes than rebalance the entire damn game from scratch.

 

 

They don't this a troll thread pure and simple. You can see it in the original post and title which "Delete hasten, Too many people take it"

 

You can see it in the revised proposals which are now "Just screw with people because they don't play the game the way I think is proper"

 

You can see it in the lack of thought that has gone into this in that the proposer hasn't even bothered to properly run the numbers or even fully consider the effects.

 

This is particularly amazing that someone who a few days ago insisted she was working far too much to even bother taking a look at the code behind changes she insisted were impossible for pets, has been able to spend so much time in this thread.

[QuiJon]

10 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

 

If (e.g.) Dominators were meant to have Domination up all the time, Cryptic would released them that way back in 2005.

 

 

I have played a dominator since COV was released. And when they made adjustments to the Domination buffs Positron was directly asked if they would be nerfing perma-dom (this was around when all the t9s in armors were taking the hit) and he replied their were no plans to do so that they felt with the changes they currently made that the AT would be working as intended. 

Stop talking out of your ass like you know the intention of the developers of the game. Many powers have been introduced and remain able to be perma'd with little to no investment in recharge or hasten. 

By nature of his response Postiron confirmed that originally the devs might not intended sometime but that they fix it on a power by power or item by item basis. Not just a blanket "no perma" policy. If a power is currently able to be perma and is breaking to the balance of the game then bring that up and lets discuss it. But hasten is not breaking the balance of the game. Your claim is it is allowing things to happen that breaks that balance, but so far I have seen nothing as an example just "nerf Hasten never intended" well pumkin pie, Hasten was able to be perma with 6 slotted SOs in recharge on day one of this game being released. With perma hasten many of these powers that you claim Cryptic didn't intended to be perma-d were able to be perma-d easily.. So easily it could not be known it wouldn't happen. And by that I mean I don't have to build a 300m IO build around doing it, I mean t9 tank armors could be perma with 6 slots on hasten and 3 more on the armor when this game launched. That is not a heavey investment that is unpredictable that a player would do when you figured the benefit and that a t9 only took like 2 enhancement types to begin with. 

So stop talking out of your ass that you know the intention of the devs. If there is a specific power that in perma status is broken then lets address it, otherwise all you are doing is telling other people how you approve of them making their own characters.

 

[TheAdjustor]

5 minutes ago, Epsilon Assassin said:

And if they intended for things to not be perma, they would have fixed it in the length of time that they had. Instead specific problematic powers got addressed (IE Domination). 

 

You're making an appeal to an authority that doesn't even really exist anymore, and that, to all appearances, disagree with you.  We're back at square one. You have an opinion. I have one. You have no logical reasons. I have one that involves why involves why work for no reason.

 

So, Why make this change?

It isn't though, since multiple types of builds can reach that number with SO's only by using Incarnate abilities. Which is obvious since they are *incarnate* content. 

 

Yes. You're right. This game is balanced around SO's. It always has been, and should always be, but that doesn't change the fact that the developers knew that it would be the bar, disregarded it and created IOs. 

Thank you that's the first good use of a logical fallacy I have seen on the internet in a very long time.

[DR_Mechano]

7 minutes ago, Steampunkette said:

Far more likely is: After ED they knew they wouldn't be able to take Hasten apart without a maaaaaaassive backlash.

And so here we are...with the same suggestion..the same amount of backlash only this time if I don't like the choice it's not a case of "Well there is only one CoH, so this change I completely disagree with went through but I've got nowhere else to go", nah...I can go elsewhere, like, for example, the CoXg or Rebirth servers. You're basically saying "lets do the massive change that causes huge upheaval and will probably generate a huge backlash...for the sake of 'balance' that doesn't actually need to happen...and drive the people who like how things are operating elsewhere on to servers that still have Hasten the way it is"

 

Why bother and why now of all times?

 

Blizzard lost people to the numerous Classic or expansion specific private servers because of their infamous 'you think you do but you don't' (in response to official classic servers) because they kept making silly changes and it was only when the noticed the figures of possible revenue (they would not have bothered with Classic servers if they couldn't make any money off of it)  that they relented.

 

From what I'm seeing of these proposed Hasten changes is "You think you like Hasten the way it is but you don't," and that ain't convincing me.

[Bossk_Hogg]

35 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

 

It does break things.  It breaks everything that was "too good" to be up all the time.

If (e.g.) Dominators were meant to have Domination up all the time, Cryptic would released them that way back in 2005.

 

Sure, and if invulnerability tankers werent meant to be immobilized in Unyielding the devs would have released it that way in 2004. Or hell, didnt the game release with tanks only able to run one defense toggle at a time?

 

The game had perma hasten from issue 0 through 5. ED happened in Issue 6, and IO's restored perma hasten in Issue 9. I can accept that ED was necessary to pave the way for the IO system, which allowed far more customization in builds. But lets not pretend that the game hasnt had perma hasten/PA etc as options for almost all of its history. 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg