Some Tweaks to Give Trick Arrow a Point

[Vanden]

If it was possible, I think a great thing for Entangling Arrow is to make it AoE, and make the target do an AoE "reverse repel" on nearby enemies. This would cause enemies to clump together more, for better AoEing.

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

If it was possible, I think a great thing for Entangling Arrow is to make it AoE, and make the target do an AoE "reverse repel" on nearby enemies. This would cause enemies to clump together more, for better AoEing.

The only possible way you could do this would be to turn Entangling Arrow into a "mini-Wormhole" (ala Gravity Control's Wormhole) that does NOT do Knock* and give it a markedly small radius (like say 7 ft, which amounts to a melee range radius around the primary $Target).  Essentially it would function as a "scooper" of an attack power that would "pile" nearby $Targets together in a clump via Teleportation just like what Wormhole does when slotted with a Knockback to Knockdown conversion IO.  Entangling Arrow though would be a Teleport+Immobilize that always notifies enemies (so no aggro-less use like with Wormhole).

 

Just about the only way I can imagine being able to "balance" that as a T1 power would be to make the Teleport effect a MAG 2.8 so it will scoop up Minions but not Lieutenants and above, while keeping the Immobilize MAG at 3 (so no change there).  Entangling Arrow in that scenario would be reclassified a Target AoE but would not change which enhancements/sets it accepts.

[Leogunner]

I'd say that has no business being in a support set that's usable by a controller. 

[Redlynne]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

I'd say that has no business being in a support set that's usable by a controller. 

Exactly.

Sometimes you need to show just how far over the line something is before people realize what they've just suggested.

[FDR's Think Tank]

Belaboring the point, everyone knows that beyond the early game, the entangling arrow is both critically lacking and largely redundant. People keep talking about a heal power... if you are gonna alter one power and give it heal, make it entangling arrow. The heal effect can be weaker early game, but more potent late game as you struggle to find a reason to USE entangling arrow. Also consider how tactically fun it would be to launch an arrow at an enemy that creates an AoE heal for nearby allies. It may force the Trick Arrow user to consider how to deploy the arrow on a deeper level than most heals and most binds.

 

The Mass Entangling Arrow is a neat alternative as well, but sounds really overpowering early game. You could always scale the powers, similar to how Mastermind start off being able to summon one basic pet... and eventually are able to summon three. This would have a side effect of the recharge time also getting heavier as entangling arrow grows in obnoxious power.

 

Trick Arrow should definitely be all about the combo/collaborative effects. These effects should be spread out so that different attack powersets have different combos they can pull off with Trick Arrows. Obviously, Any set with a fire attack for defenders allows for the oil explosion combo... but some more esoteric ideas shouldn't be impossible to create.

 

So here is a hypothetical that factors nothing about what it would take to program these changes in....

 

Entangling Arrow - AoE Heal around Entangled Enemy - On it's own, this is hugely collaborative and tactical above the current Standard.

 

Flash Arrow - Blinds Enemies - Blinded enemies should be especially vulnerable to darkness. This could be weakened defense to dark damage, or a chance to extend blindness when hit by a dark attack. (Dark Combo)

 

Glue Arrow- Slows Enemies with Military Grade Adhesive - This could increase the effectiveness of Radiation based attacks, creating an AoE Radiation effect inside the glued area when mobs are hit with Radiation. The Glue can Glow in the dark when irradiated! (Radiation Combo)

 

Ice Arrow- Bind and lockdown - No need to get fancy, Cold strikes could extend this lockdown, but for balance, flame based attacks would shorten the duration of the hold. This would make team communication essential, but also give entangling arrow a benefit when working with fire users. (Ice Combo/Fire anticombo)

 

Poison Gas Arrow- Sleep effect- Any effect that creates a gale or wind will grossly expand the range of this knockout gas, while reducing the time it keeps targets asleep. This may require persistence of the gas effect to be toggled... and wind/gale effects are rather obnoxious in some ways right now but if you could target your allies poison gas cloud and get a mass sleepzone instead, it would be a load of fun. (Wind/Storm/Blowback Combo)

 

Acid Arrow- Toxic DoT AoE - Earthen Alchemy... when combing with earth effects, this acid can grow more corrosive and deal extra DoT. Earth Strike Players can attack acid to boost acidity. (Earth Combo)

 

Disruption Arrow- Resistance Debuff Ranged AoE - Enemies disoriented by this arrow can become especially more susceptible to confusion and psychic based attacks. (Psychic/Illusion Combo)

 

Oil Slick Arrow - Slip Zone - Explosive ignition (Fire, flame arrow, Flamethrower Combo... and Energy too?)

 

EMP Arrow - AoE Hold, bonus vs. Robots - Charge up! When Activated in proximity to an ally with electrical/energy powers, they will charge the arrow before it launches... The pause for this might be extended and there might be a maximum number of allies that can improve the arrow or diminishing returns. (Electric/Energy Combo)

 

 

 

[Redlynne]

I'm just going to place my marker on "porting" Electrified Net Arrow into Trick Arrow is the easiest, simplest and most elegant solution to the problem.

[MTeague]

I don't think Trick Arrow needs or should get a heal. You're using a frickin' bow and arrow.  That doesn't heal, unless you're shooting suppository medical arrows.

But several sets don't get a heal, and are fine.  Sonic Resonance, Force Fields, Cold Domination, etc.  At MOST perhaps you could have a Triage Arrow that sets up a Triage Beacon (from Traps) at the target location. But keep in mind, that's useless for any fast-moving group, becuase no one stays near it for long. 

 

If you want to be a healing archer, the Medicine tree is available, and is honestly a better solution for heals you can use even on teams that move, and top off people as needed.

 

I think efforts are far better placed in strengthening some of the early weak arrows.   

• Entangling Arrow - give it a small fire/toxic dot ("caustic"?) and would allow it to set off Oil Slick. 
• Flash Arrow - I agree the To-Hit debuff is not strong enough as is.  I would be fine with a base 10% (or more!).  Yes, it's an AE power, but Poison and Radiation get better -To Hit powers at comparable levels in their respective trees.  If boosting the to-hit much above 10% would be considered too OP, perhaps add a strong -Range effect, so things have to try to get into melee range with you before they can attack.  It wouldn't change much for a "Standard" team with tanks and scrappers and MM minions, but it would make a huge quality of life for anyone soloing if they could use Flash arrow and kite for some free hits.
• Glue Arrow - I'd look at the -Recharge effect.  I don't know what it is right now, but it should be right up there with Snow Storm for -Recharge.  I don't know that it needs more than that, except perhaps a faster recharge.  Mobs try hard to get OUT of the glue, meaning they move slowly and don't attack.  This already mitigates a ton of damage / gives your team lots of free hits.
• Poison Gas arrow - I think entirely reasonable to give it a -Regen comparable to Poison Gas Trap in Traps. 

 

 

[Redlynne]

58 minutes ago, MTeague said:

• Entangling Arrow - give it a small fire/toxic dot ("caustic"?) and would allow it to set off Oil Slick. 

I love it how people can be handed an answer that ALREADY WORKS ... called Electrified Net Arrow ... and they just DROP IT ON THE FLOOR as if they weren't handed the answer on a platter while they reach for the WRONG answer With Confidence™.

[FDR's Think Tank]

1 hour ago, Redlynne said:

I love it how people can be handed an answer that ALREADY WORKS ... called Electrified Net Arrow ... and they just DROP IT ON THE FLOOR as if they weren't handed the answer on a platter while they reach for the WRONG answer With Confidence™.

You are probably right, but people might feel like having two electric arrows is unbalanced. It's curious they didn't already make the change, in some ways. You could always make it a constricting wire net that does lethal instead of electric if there is a Dev reason not to give Defenders the electrified net.

 

Or maybe they could simply reduce the recharge at high levels so you could spam net arrows. Arrows, as a set, already use very little endurance. If High Level players were able to net individual targets rapidly, then they might start leaning on the defender endurance reduction. As it stands, Arrow Defenders rarely look at endurance. Many take high cost pool powers to take advantage of the extra stamina.

[Vanden]

17 hours ago, Redlynne said:

I'm just going to place my marker on "porting" Electrified Net Arrow into Trick Arrow is the easiest, simplest and most elegant solution to the problem.

How does giving some single-target damage to Trick Arrow solve the problem of it being a weak Buff/Debuff set?

[Bossk_Hogg]

21 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I'd say that has no business being in a support set that's usable by a controller. 

There's no law that says all changes have to be ported to controllers. Regardless, TA's only strength is "has oil slick". It's incredibly sub-par on basically everything else and more limited in debuff options than other sets that offer more buffs/heals/utility. 

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

How does giving some single-target damage to Trick Arrow solve the problem of it being a weak Buff/Debuff set?

Solve the problem?  Not entirely.  It would allow the set to actually utilize every aspect of itself, without having to tap into outside sets/powers, though.  TA would still need a lot of love...

[Redlynne]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

On 10/13/2019 at 7:56 PM, Redlynne said:

I'm just going to place my marker on "porting" Electrified Net Arrow into Trick Arrow is the easiest, simplest and most elegant solution to the problem.

How does giving some single-target damage to Trick Arrow solve the problem of it being a weak Buff/Debuff set?

Swapping Electrified Net Arrow in for Entangling Arrow is ONE ... I repeat for clarity ... ONE piece of the puzzle for what to do for Trick Arrow to bring the set up to par (instead of keeping it at its current "triple bogey" status of underperformance).  And I say that in the context of "what to do about Entangling Arrow?" since it is a simple, easy and effective solution to the problem of what to do with the T1 power.

 

T2-T9 is the rest of the conversation beyond what to do about T1.

The fact that this change to T1 in and of itself increases the internal synergy of the powerset so you don't need to outside the powerset to ignite the T8 power is merely the FIRST step ... not the last.

[Vanden]

8 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Swapping Electrified Net Arrow in for Entangling Arrow is ONE ... I repeat for clarity ... ONE piece of the puzzle for what to do for Trick Arrow to bring the set up to par (instead of keeping it at its current "triple bogey" status of underperformance).  And I say that in the context of "what to do about Entangling Arrow?" since it is a simple, easy and effective solution to the problem of what to do with the T1 power.

Alright then, let me rephrase: how does adding some single-target damage to Entangling Arrow solve the problem of Entangling Arrow having no real place or purpose in the Buff/Debuff set it's part of? Yes, it gives TA a method to light Oil Slick Arrow, but TA isn't actually hurting for that since absolutely any character can pick up Taser Dart or Apprentice Charm for free and use that to light it instead.

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Alright then, let me rephrase: how does adding some single-target damage to Entangling Arrow solve the problem of Entangling Arrow having no real place or purpose in the Buff/Debuff set it's part of? Yes, it gives TA a method to light Oil Slick Arrow, but TA isn't actually hurting for that since absolutely any character can pick up Taser Dart or Apprentice Charm for free and use that to light it instead.

Do any other sets have to dip outside of themselves in order to take advantage of one of the other powers in the set?  As Redlynne stated: "Swapping Electrified Net Arrow in for Entangling Arrow is ONE ... I repeat for clarity ... ONE piece of the puzzle for what to do for Trick Arrow".

[Redlynne]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Alright then, let me rephrase: how does adding some single-target damage to Entangling Arrow solve the problem of Entangling Arrow having no real place or purpose in the Buff/Debuff set it's part of? Yes, it gives TA a method to light Oil Slick Arrow, but TA isn't actually hurting for that since absolutely any character can pick up Taser Dart or Apprentice Charm for free and use that to light it instead.

So the whole point of wanting to add either Energy or Fire damage to Entangling Arrow in order to light an Oil Slick ... you're just going to ignore that and pretend it isn't a problem for the powerset overall.

Okay ...

 

But to answer your question in a more forthright manner ... Entangling Arrow (or the Electrified Net Arrow version) has more Range than either Taser Dart or Apprentice Charm does.  The Origin Attack Powers all have a pretty short range on them, and it's a range that cannot be enhanced, so you're stuck with short range forever (sucks to be you).

 

Also, Entangling Arrow ... as is ... is nearly useless because simply Immobilizing $Targets doesn't stop them from attacking.

 

According to the build planner app:

Entangling Arrow can slot Immobilize and Slow sets (plus ATO and Universal).

Electrified Net Arrow can slot Ranged, Immobilize and Slow sets (plus ATO and Universal).

 

That addition of Ranged damage sets opens up a MUCH wider array of possibilities for how to slot ... including the use of the Decimation proc(!) and the Devastation proc, in addition to all of the other damage procs and allows the T1 power to be used for (and I shouldn't have to say this because I thought it would be pretty obvious, but here goes) ... MORE THAN JUST AN IMMOBILIZE.

 

 

 

And if that still "doesn't compute" for you ... there isn't much I can do to help you with the comprehension about why that would be useful.

[Leogunner]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

Do any other sets have to dip outside of themselves in order to take advantage of one of the other powers in the set?  As Redlynne stated: "Swapping Electrified Net Arrow in for Entangling Arrow is ONE ... I repeat for clarity ... ONE piece of the puzzle for what to do for Trick Arrow".

I personally feel the theme of the set was aiming to use teamwork for extra effect.  That the set cannot light Oilslick Arrow itself isn't an inconsistency with the set or the theme since the purpose of Oilslick Arrow is to put down a knockdown patch.  The damage is synergy with either your secondary or your teammate.

 

Also, other sets, AFAIK, don't use synergy as a theme like Trick Arrow so there is no "dip outside to take advantage" since either that can be expanded to any broad circumstance (like Toughness for other resist sets) or Tactics for the old fast-snipe...or comparing apples to bananas since no set uses synergy in such a way.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Redlynne said:

And if that still "doesn't compute" for you ... there isn't much I can do to help you with the comprehension about why that would be useful.

I can see that you've mistaken my rhetorical question for an honest one. I understand perfectly what you're trying to suggest, I just think it's a bad idea because: A) Trick Arrow is supposed to be a Buff/Debuff set, and adding more damage isn't going to make it a better Buff/Debuff set, and B) You're essentially saying that lighting the Oil Slick is something that every TA character should expect to be able to do every time it's used, in which case the power should just light itself, rather than require two power picks.

[Leogunner]

6 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Also, Entangling Arrow ... as is ... is nearly useless because simply Immobilizing $Targets doesn't stop them from attacking.

Immobilizes have their uses.  Not sure why you're trying to exaggerate to make a point.

 

7 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

According to the build planner app:

Entangling Arrow can slot Immobilize and Slow sets (plus ATO and Universal).

Electrified Net Arrow can slot Ranged, Immobilize and Slow sets (plus ATO and Universal).

 

That addition of Ranged damage sets opens up a MUCH wider array of possibilities for how to slot ... including the use of the Decimation proc(!) and the Devastation proc, in addition to all of the other damage procs and allows the T1 power to be used for (and I shouldn't have to say this because I thought it would be pretty obvious, but here goes) ... MORE THAN JUST AN IMMOBILIZE.

 

Need I remind you, none of that has to do with the actual Trick Arrow powerset.  IOs are a different can of worms.

 

8 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

And if that still "doesn't compute" for you ... there isn't much I can do to help you with the comprehension about why that would be useful.

Eh, I'd prefer something unique be done with the set and your idea sets a precedence for the set I'd rather not go toward if it may hinder such buffs from implementation.

[Leogunner]

5 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I can see that you've mistaken my rhetorical question for an honest one. I understand perfectly what you're trying to suggest, I just think it's a bad idea because: A) Trick Arrow is supposed to be a Buff/Debuff set, and adding more damage isn't going to make it a better Buff/Debuff set, and B) You're essentially saying that lighting the Oil Slick is something that every TA character should expect to be able to do every time it's used, in which case the power should just light itself, rather than require two power picks.

I actually recall that being suggested too (the self-lighting slick) or adding more damage types that can light it (or just damage in general).

 

I'll just say, all those ideas are very derivative and nothing new.  Why not focus on other suggestions? lol  

[Redlynne]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I can see that you've mistaken my rhetorical question for an honest one.

Oh ... okay.

Dishonest questions it is then.

4 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I understand perfectly what you're trying to suggest, I just think it's a bad idea because

It reduces the ... "purity" ... of the powerset in terms of being helpless to exploit its own powers in a synergistic way?

5 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Trick Arrow is supposed to be a Buff/Debuff set, and adding more damage isn't going to make it a better Buff/Debuff set

/em thinks Vanden doesn't understand what Acid Arrow does ... or EMP Arrow vs Robots ... or Oil Slick Arrow when lit ...

7 minutes ago, Vanden said:

You're essentially saying that lighting the Oil Slick is something that every TA character should expect to be able to do every time it's used, in which case the power should just light itself, rather than require two power picks.

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4 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Immobilizes have their uses.  Not sure why you're trying to exaggerate to make a point.

They do ... however Immobilizes that can also do DoT damage have MORE USES.

This shouldn't be all that controversial.

5 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Eh, I'd prefer something unique be done with the set and your idea sets a precedence for the set I'd rather not go toward if it may hinder such buffs from implementation.

So you want something THAT ISN'T TRICK ARROW (or Tactical Arrow) ... or at least doesn't even pretend to attempt to adhere to precedent.  You want something "new" and "different" and "never been done before" ... and sticking with the theme we've got and what actually works in game right now so there doesn't have to be an enormous development effort to implement it all, well, that's just got to GO.

 

Yeah, I see what you did there.

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Oh ... okay.

Dishonest questions it is then.

Alright, I can see you're not interested in engaging in an actual discussion at this point. Message received.

[biostem]

21 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I personally feel the theme of the set was aiming to use teamwork for extra effect.  That the set cannot light Oilslick Arrow itself isn't an inconsistency with the set or the theme since the purpose of Oilslick Arrow is to put down a knockdown patch.  The damage is synergy with either your secondary or your teammate.

I understand that you "personally feel" this way, but beyond that, can you support this feeling in any way?  Your character, solo, can take advantage of every other aspect of the set, so why this odd limitation?  IMO, the set was meant to go with the archery primary on defenders or corruptors, who would have access to blazing and explosive arrow.  The fact that it was seemingly never considered that someone might want to use a different primary, that doesn't deal energy or fire damage, seems like an oversight to me.  Look at time manipulation, for instance - several powers take advantage of the delayed mechanic, which the set itself can apply.  Now imagine if you needed some ability outside of the set in order to gain that additional effect...

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, biostem said:

I understand that you "personally feel" this way, but beyond that, can you support this feeling in any way?  

I say "personally feel" to illustrate it's my opinion.  And it makes more sense when you actually take into account that, again, the set natively doesn't light the oil slick.

 

2 minutes ago, biostem said:

Your character, solo, can take advantage of every other aspect of the set, so why this odd limitation? 

It's called a gimmick.  A lot of sets have it.  If the set's gimmick is synergy, that stands to be the set can be granted effects beyond what a normal support set is granted.  If the set just has self-contained effects, it obviously must perform within parameters of a support set.  In fact, I think it's why Oilslick Arrow has as much damage as it does...

 

 

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

It's called a gimmick.  A lot of sets have it.  If the set's gimmick is synergy, that stands to be the set can be granted effects beyond what a normal support set is granted.  If the set just has self-contained effects, it obviously must perform within parameters of a support set.  In fact, I think it's why Oilslick Arrow has as much damage as it does...

So to you, not being able to use 1 of your own powers is enough to give the entire set a "gimmick"?  If you have fire, archery, electricity, or any of of various other blast sets, then you *can* take advantage of that so-called "gimmick", so if the intent was to restrict it to effects only other party members can trigger, then it fails.  Perhaps it's not a gimmick at all - perhaps it's just an oversight and a sign that the set underperforms...