Thugs/kin build

[Cannonbear]

I've skimmed through the 13 pages of posts here and cant find a thugs/kin build to follow.  Can any one help me out with how to slot what with what? I could care less about repels and knockbacks but a whole lotta hasten and gang war being close to perma would be fun. Also I like being invisible. I'm fine with a more expensive build I have a farmer

Edited October 18, 2019 by Cannonbear

[Trogan707]

Im curious also about this build. ANyone have any experiences with it?

[Shoulung]

You’re not finding a build because /kin is considered underwhelming for MMs. At best you’re figuring 20% recharge increase from siphon speed, if you can keep it up all the time. So if you’re only doing it for recharge, you’re better off going with another set. As to how effective a fulcrum shifted gang war is, I couldn’t tell you. My experience with gang war is that it’s best used as a damage mitigation tool.

[Cannonbear]

Yeah I get that it's not the ideal mm set, especially for soloing the game, compared to a bots/ff or something. I wasnt getting kin for my own recharge, more so i just like playing support on teams and i like kinetics and i figured kinetics was one that hybrided well because it takes very few slots to be effective. So to change it up from my usual controler/kinetics set I thought it might be fun to branch out and try a mm set. I chose thugs mainly because of the fun little tricks like 2 gang wars at once using burnout. But knowing that it's already gimped compared to other sets, that's why I asked if any one had a good build, I'd rather be as optimized as possible so that I can at least be average enough to bring along. 

[thespiritfox2]

Alright a few things. 

 

First, the warning against /kin. Speed boost fucks up pet parthing. It has very little defenses to keep you or your pets alive. And many of its buffs (end recovery and recharge) do not do shit for pets. I can guarantee you that if you want to be team support there are better ways to go. Much. 

 

Second, if you're really committed to /kin I would pair it with bots over thugs. Bots are more survivable and with the pet defense and resistance ios they'll be closer to softcap than thugs will get plus you get a bot shield too. 

 

Third. The only thing /kin is truly wanted for is fulcrum shift. Everyone loves being damage capped. But /kin has one piddly heal, no defenses, and average or below debuffs. No one actually needs +speed, the endurance recovery helps but these days with dfb and dib by the time you need endurance help leveling you're 30 and hopefully slotting some recovery procs. Even moreso at end game, you will shelve this character at 50. If you make it that far, you'll find your toon is anemic as fuck end game. There aren't that many mms in BAFs and Keyes cause your thugs/kin will fold like paper in incarnate trials. 

 

And I can't make you a build at any cost that will change that. Mms benefits the least from sets. Because none of those set bonuses apply to what deals our damage you can softcap yourself all day your pets will die constantly and leave you at best a handicapped softcapped corruptor with few to no attacks. At worst just constantly dead. 

 

Roll a /kinetics and i promise you you'll wish you rolled a corr or defender by 50. Either of them would have done better

 

You want team support? /traps, /time, /cold, /dark, /nature, and /storm all do a better job than /kin while also providing you with tools to keep yourself and your pets alive and doing damage. 

 

Remember, you're team support with a pocket team of your own. People expect an mm to be able to tank a bit, people expect us to do more than resummon constantly and if you're not resummoning you're doing no damage and you should have rolled a defender. 

 

We are a pet class. As a main bots/traps let me tell you if your pets are not part of the team you're supporting you'll not play the toon long because it just won't be effective. 

 

If you really want to play with a /kin build that does interesting things try a kin/sonic defender. Does way more damage than a defender should because of the synergy of +dam and -res 

 

If you want a solid support mm, I highly recommend anything with /time or a bots/thugs dark or a /traps mm with aid pool. 

 

 

[SmalltalkJava]

Just a warning.   /Kin is a hard life with a MM.   But you will love it when another player with good shields or Time or Nature is on the team.  Remember your T1 pets only have like 570 HP when your level 50.  So they will die a lot.  It will also be hard to actually play Thugs with Kin as your heal is pbaoe off the target.  and thugs prefer range.      If your set on a /Kin MM. you might try Beasts.  With beasts at least they are always in melee range with the enemy.  So you can heal spam.  

 

Anyways,  here is a quick expensive build for a Thugs-Kin.   It is capped to S/L/E defense for yourself with good resists for yourself for S/L and a bit of toxic.  I switched it over from Darkir's Demon/Kin Build.   This build doesn't have Increase Density, but you can just drop either Pistols or Duel Wield to pick it up if you want it.  Then take the extra slots and move them somewhere else.

 

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.6
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Spoiler

 

Thugs-Kin SLE Cap: Level 50 Natural Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Thugs

• (A) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Accuracy/Damage
• (11) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Damage/Endurance
• (13) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (13) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (15) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
• (15) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Recharge/Pet +AoE Defense Aura

Level 1: Transfusion

• (A) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance
• (3) Numina's Convalesence - Endurance/Recharge
• (3) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Recharge
• (5) Numina's Convalesence - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
• (5) Numina's Convalesence - Heal
• (9) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery

Level 2: Pistols

• (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
• (39) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance
• (39) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
• (39) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (40) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (48) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 4: Siphon Power

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 6: Repel

• (A) Endurance Reduction IO
• (7) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge
• (7) Sudden Acceleration - Knockback to Knockdown

Level 8: Equip Thugs

• (A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 10: Empty Clips

• (A) Ragnarok - Damage
• (40) Ragnarok - Damage/Recharge
• (40) Ragnarok - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (43) Ragnarok - Damage/Endurance
• (46) Ragnarok - Chance for Knockdown
• (50) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge

Level 12: Call Enforcer

• (A) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Endurance/Pet +Resist +Regen
• (17) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Accuracy/Damage
• (17) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage
• (19) Expedient Reinforcement - Damage/Endurance
• (19) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (21) Expedient Reinforcement - Resist Bonus Aura for Pets

Level 14: Siphon Speed

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 16: Dual Wield

• (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
• (36) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance
• (37) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
• (37) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
• (48) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (50) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 18: Gang War

• (A) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Damage
• (21) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Damage/Endurance
• (25) Call to Arms - Accuracy/Recharge
• (34) Call to Arms - Accuracy/Damage
• (34) Call to Arms - Endurance/Damage/Recharge
• (34) Call to Arms - Defense Bonus Aura for Pets

Level 20: Speed Boost

• (A) Blessing of the Zephyr - Knockback Reduction (4 points)

Level 22: Maneuvers

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
• (23) Luck of the Gambler - Endurance/Recharge
• (23) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
• (36) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
• (36) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (37) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)

Level 24: Tactics

• (A) HamiO:Cytoskeleton Exposure
• (25) HamiO:Cytoskeleton Exposure

Level 26: Call Bruiser

• (A) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Accuracy/Endurance
• (27) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
• (27) Sovereign Right - Damage/Endurance
• (29) Sovereign Right - Accuracy/Damage
• (29) Sovereign Right - Resistance Bonus
• (33) Edict of the Master - Defense Bonus

Level 28: Boxing

• (A) Empty

Level 30: Tough

• (A) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance
• (31) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance
• (31) Unbreakable Guard - Resistance/Endurance/RechargeTime
• (31) Unbreakable Guard - +Max HP
• (33) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
• (33) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)

Level 32: Upgrade Equipment

• (A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 35: Transference

• (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Recharge

Level 38: Fulcrum Shift

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 41: Weave

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
• (42) Luck of the Gambler - Endurance/Recharge
• (42) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
• (42) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
• (43) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (43) Kismet - Accuracy +6%

Level 44: Scorpion Shield

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
• (45) Luck of the Gambler - Endurance/Recharge
• (45) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
• (45) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
• (46) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
• (46) Reactive Defenses - Scaling Resist Damage

Level 47: Combat Jumping

• (A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
• (48) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 49: Hasten

• (A) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 1: Brawl

• (A) Empty

Level 1: Prestige Power Dash

• (A) Celerity - Endurance

Level 1: Prestige Power Slide

• (A) Celerity - Endurance

Level 1: Prestige Power Quick

• (A) Celerity - Endurance

Level 1: Prestige Power Rush

• (A) Empty

Level 1: Prestige Power Surge

• (A) Celerity - RunSpeed

Level 1: Sprint

• (A) Celerity - RunSpeed
• (50) Celerity - +Stealth

Level 1: Supremacy 

Level 2: Rest

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• (A) Empty

Level 2: Swift

• (A) Empty

Level 2: Health

• (A) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
• (11) Miracle - +Recovery

Level 2: Hurdle

• (A) Empty

Level 2: Stamina

• (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod
• (9) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End

Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 

Level 12: Punk 
Level 1: Arsonist 
Level 1: Bruiser 
Level 12: Enforcer 
------------

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by SmalltalkJava

[The_Warpact]

I have a thugs/kin at 12 right now, on a team its fun.

I'm going to keep leveling it, I'm curious how it will turn out since like you I saw nothing about it.

I know the melee types I team with are happy for the help/kin gives even if it is underwhelming. 

If you see Master Meth Head running around that's me, but, then again i do builds to have fun with, not max out with a billion inf and try to solo AV's.

[Wintervoid]

I have an old Beast/Kin, and it was a buzzsaw once you get FS.   Kin is light on survivability, but the damage is legit.   I paired with Beast so I could cap Damage AND defense on my pets, but I have always been curious how Kin would be on other sets.

[plainguy]

Thugs is double maneuvers right. 

 

You would need some defenses or work for defense cap if you could. 

This is with Enforcer Maneuvers OFF

With it ON you will be at defense cap.

Hindsight as I post this. I would get rid of Repel and pickup Provoke. 

 

You are free to Proc up gang war if you like. 

Oppressive Gloom will help with lower mobs not attacking you from stun. It is also a GREAT at getting you aggro combined with Provoke. 

I sure if you work with this a bit build wise someone could tweak it to make it better, this was just doing standard defense cap build for masterminds.

 

 

 

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.7
https://github.com/ImaginaryDevelopment/imaginary-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Thugs
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Thugs -- BldMnd-Acc/Dmg(A), BldMnd-Dmg/EndRdx(3), BldMnd-Acc/EndRdx(3), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), BldMnd-Acc(5), BldMnd-Dmg(7)
Level 1: Transfusion -- NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx(A), NmnCnv-EndRdx/Rchg(7), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg(9), NmnCnv-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(9), NmnCnv-Heal(11), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(33)
Level 2: Siphon Power -- Acc-I(A)
Level 4: Repel -- Empty(A), Empty(40)
Level 6: Equip Thugs -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Maneuvers -- RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(A), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(11), RedFrt-EndRdx/Rchg(13), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39), RedFrt-Def(40), RedFrt-EndRdx(40)
Level 10: Siphon Speed -- ImpSwf-Acc/Slow(A), ImpSwf-Dmg/Slow(37), ImpSwf-Acc/EndRdx(37), ImpSwf-Rng/Slow(37), ImpSwf-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(39), ImpSwf-Dam%(39)
Level 12: Call Enforcer -- BldMnd-Acc/Dmg(A), BldMnd-Dmg/EndRdx(13), BldMnd-Acc/EndRdx(19), BldMnd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), BldMnd-Acc(21), BldMnd-Dmg(23)
Level 14: Tactics -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(15), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(15), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(17), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(17), GssSynFr--Build%(19)
Level 16: Increase Density -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(34), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(34)
Level 18: Gang War -- Empty(A), Empty(23), Empty(25), Empty(25), Empty(31), Empty(36)
Level 20: Speed Boost -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(36)
Level 22: Hasten -- Empty(A), Empty(46)
Level 24: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(31)
Level 26: Call Bruiser -- SlbAll-Build%(A), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(27), SprMarofS-Dmg(27), SprMarofS-Dmg/EndRdx(29), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg(29), SprMarofS-Acc/EndRdx(31)
Level 28: Inertial Reduction -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A), BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(36)
Level 30: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 32: Upgrade Equipment -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Transference -- Empty(A), Empty(43)
Level 38: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(42), UnbGrd-ResDam(42), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(42), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(43), UnbGrd-Max HP%(43)
Level 41: Dark Embrace -- Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Ags-EndRdx/Rchg(45), Ags-ResDam/Rchg(45), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), Ags-ResDam(48)
Level 44: Oppressive Gloom -- RzzDzz-Acc/Rchg(A), RzzDzz-EndRdx/Stun(46), RzzDzz-Acc/EndRdx(46), RzzDzz-Stun/Rng(48), RzzDzz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(48), RzzDzz-Immob%(50)
Level 47: Fulcrum Shift -- Acc-I(A)
Level 49: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(50), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Supremacy 
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A), Empty(33)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A), Empty(33)
Level 1: Punk 
Level 1: Arsonist 
Level 26: Bruiser 
Level 12: Enforcer 
Level 0: Maneuvers 
------------

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[Pherdnut]

This is an old thread but I beg to differ on Thugs/Kin being a weak set pairing for MMs. Enforcers with double-defense socketed, turns thugs into one of the toughest MM pet sets in the game regardless of what you get from your secondary. And that double-leadership aura is positional-defense-based so there's very little in the game that can ignore it. Kin is also one of 2 sets that can actually prevent knockback on your pets, along with a bunch of other mezzes, which makes clarion vs barrier more a choice about MM mez coverage vs massive res than the no-brainer over whether to allow your lvl 50+ incarnate-boosted pets to be undone by a humble ice patch. It's a very strong synergy.

Then you get Fulcrum Shift and enemy mobs simply start melting.

Kin can be a little demanding on an MM-player in terms of micro though. You really have to keep a tight leash to make sure your pets don't zip off and start aggroing things left and right before you even have a chance to react. Fortunately, the speed also means a lot less down-time when you use heel to do stuff like pull range-engaged thugs closer in for an enemy centered heal. You can also minimize risk of pets running off and aggroing new groups by switching to defensive stance (bodyguard mode) after picking targets when mob groups are almost finished. They'll finish their pre-selected target but will only retarget if something is attacking you.

@Plainguy - Very helpful build. I didn't think it was possible to get positional def that high with just maneuvers. FYI, sadly Enforcer leadership auras only affect pets and not the MM and Mids erroneously shows +8.75 to all from an enforcer aura. IMO, something like this is the way to go until you get to destiny incarnates. High 30s + bodyguard with near-capped thugs is no joke. Then I think I might try switching to a resist-based defense for the MM to combine with Barrier. Much easier to beef up recharge time with a resist-focus for more regular gang war spamming and the thugs should be able to handle bodyguard even with heavy AoE if MM damage is getting reduced to 25-50% even when barrier is at its weakest.

I managed to eke out a little bit more def with two defense enhancements slotted in Enforcers (makes a huge difference for the pet Def). Can probably get past 40% on the MM with +5s. Somebody feel free to improve on that.

thug-kin-def-focus.mxd

Edited June 23, 2020 by Pherdnut

[Mopery]

LOL, so many people who've never actually played a well built lvl 50 Thugs/Kin MM.