Redside does NOT need more rogue content; it needs more VILLAIN content

[SmokinIndo]

Right now, the Rogue Isles shouldn't be called City of Villains. It should be called City of Mercenaries. 95% of story arcs written in City of Villains follow this basic premise: a contact needs somebody to be his muscle, so he "hires" you to go beat up bad guys. The real villain is the contact your working for, while you're nothing more than his goon. It's pathetic that this is the overwhelming majority of arcs in CoV. Despite Going Rogue introducing "rogue" alignments, the "villain" alignment is what's been missing from this game since it's inception. Only recently with some of the newer updates did writers start to figure this out, but the game ended before they could keep it going.

 

Mr. G's arc in St. Martial is an example of a good villain arc. You actually feel like a villain because you're trying to spread your power and influence across the city. You're trying to control your enemies through fear and oppression. It's all about power. And the entire time, you're a leading contributer to the direction of the story. You aren't simply being told what to do. You are actually taking initiative and enacting plans that your character created.

 

There are small moments in the game where you see potential in the writing. The inner monologues of the villain alignment missions are a perfect example of what a real villain would be like. You aren't trying to make a quick buck. You have a master plan to rule the world, and you are taking the necessary steps to see that plan fulfilled. Money isn't as important as removing that pesky hero who will no doubt be an obstacle for you going forward.

 

Even the stories where my character is SAVING THE WORLD make me feel more villanous than just being some cleaner doing a hit for the Family. Fighting Mot or Rula-Wade actually makes me feel like a villain, because the story explicitly describes my using these events as a springboard for my eventual rule. When saving the world makes me more evil than most of the content that redside offers, that's how you know your writing ain't up to par.

 

When I saw that CoH was introducing two new arcs, one of them being for rogues, I groaned. This game was always made for rogues. It's time we start making it for villains.

Edited October 23, 2019 by SmokinIndo

[Lines]

I think about this often.

 

I find it helps to think of your character on redside as the same narrative role as blueside; you respond to the needs of others rather than have your own agency. The difference is that it’s in a world where goodness is actively discouraged and self-centredness is the paradigm. I really enjoy redside with this attitude; you’re basically a hero in evil circumstances.

 

What would villain content look like? It was attempted with the Protean plotline, but that was very stifled in its writing. It made presumptions and put words in the character’s mouth. It gave you a very specific agenda. It ultimately goes nowhere. The format of typical mission arcs just doesn’t quite mesh with evil schemes.

 

However! HC has just proved that they can do a branching plotline. That could really open things up. Could there be one long redside plot that goes 1-50, like the VEAT arcs, that allows the player to choose from different ways to terrorise Paragon City (magical mind control, technological canon on the moon...), using different origins as prompts, and to feel like they own the scheme by making decisions. Think Evil Genius, if you’ve ever played that.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Lines

[SmokinIndo]

48 minutes ago, Lines said:

I think about this often.

 

I find it helps to think of your character on redside as the same narrative role as blueside; you respond to the needs of others rather than have your own agency. The difference is that it’s in a world where goodness is actively discouraged and self-centredness is the paradigm. I really enjoy redside with this attitude; you’re basically a hero in evil circumstances.

 

What would villain content look like? It was attempted with the Protean plotline, but that was very stifled in its writing. It made presumptions and put words in the character’s mouth. It gave you a very specific agenda. It ultimately goes nowhere. The format of typical mission arcs just doesn’t quite mesh with evil schemes.

 

However! HC has just proved that they can do a branching plotline. That could really open things up. Could there be one long redside plot that goes 1-50, like the VEAT arcs, that allows the player to choose from five ways to terrorise Paragon City (magical mind control, technological canon on the moon...), using different origins as prompts, and to feel like they own the scheme by making decisions. Think Evil Genius, if you’ve ever played that.

By default, the story arcs on redside presume that your villain is nothing more than a mook that only cares about his next score.  So what if Dean MacArthur's arc gives a voice to your character or presumes info about you? That's better than doing the millionth hit for the Family and having no ambition of your own.  

 

A huge staple of comic book villainy is obtaining power and using that power to change the world. CoH understands this since arch-villains at the head of every group, like Nemesis, Dr. Vahzilok, Crey, and Requiem, are ambitious in their bid for power. Myself and others make villains to share the same space as this bunch. 

 

Here's an example of what proper villain content looks like. I find a tip that reads my character's internal monolgue. I act on my latest scheme and kidnap a powerful wizard with knowledge about the Flames of Prometheus. I blackmail him and use his knowledge of the mystic arts to take the Flames for myself. Sound familiar? That's how the Mortimer Kal arc starts. Or maybe I pillage a dying dimension for items of power, and I find a man on the verge of death, who bargains with me for his life. He agrees to serve me if I let him live, and he feeds me tips about the Praetoreans which I use to strike fear into the city. That's how Mr. G's arc starts. There's lots of ways to go about doing this. As you can tell, I'm a big fan of internal monologues, and I think they play a big part of being a proactive villain. I want to see more content follow in these footsteps 

Edited October 23, 2019 by SmokinIndo

[FDR's Think Tank]

In some ways you are correct... Even as an Agent of Arachnos, you are less an independent Villain and more of an expendible pawn. Arachnos doesn't own Villainy.

 

The first to fix this is to improve the Newspaper Missions, which allow you to perform your own heists and scheme your own plots.  It's the right direction and bank robberies are the most specific reminder than you are actually an outlaw in City of Villains.

 

The second way to consider the difference between Blueside and Redside. Blueside has organizations like Longbow, Wyvern, and more specifically G.I.F.T., S.E.R.A.P.H., etc.... The organizations on Redside occassionally mirror Blue, but are usually more the personal projects of different NPC villains. You could argue there aren't as many specifically for Redside, since many organizations serve as punching bags for Red and Blue. So for villains, it's important for them to have a goal. Heroes have a desire to protect. If Villains are in it for the benefits, those probably shouldn't be left entirely to our imagination. Villains are harder to write custom story archs for because motives are more ranged than for heroes.

 

So... How do you fix it? Masterminds can summon goons, but all villains should have the opportunity to form gangs with NPC groups, fight for territory, and have lackeys that carry out petty crimes for them... Even if they all basically can't help in the battles the Villain fights themself. Power over others is a key thing all Villains want to some degree.

 

Redside needs more ways to compete with itself, and since PvP is totally unbalanced, it needs to be largely removed from combat and rely on management, tactics, and Grand strategy.

 

In fact, Redside players could even fight over territory in Paragon too, being string pullers and boosting gangs they are allied with. This is a massive project, if you understand... Giving villains the ability to affect the territories gangs actually hold on maps. Heroes would need a way to know what gangs control where, but in many ways this is something that should be done for the long term benefit of the game.

 

You need to be able to create dynamic territories for a living breathing game and a superhero game needs it even more. It's better to create a point of player interaction and control rather than only changing the city when a giant story arch is concieved, then keeping mirrors of the old layouts.

 

You can even build in mechanics for strong gangs to fall, either due to increased police pressure, special hero missions targeting strong gangs in each zone, or increased rewards for villains to support smaller aggressive gangs.

 

A villain needs a way to show off to other bad guys, but also to heroes as well!

 

Each City zone would need to establish gang headquarters for the gangs of each territory... Something they probably should have done a while ago anyway, with improvements to graphics.

 

Give us Gang Wars!

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by FDR's Think Tank

[Soulstinger]

^ this sounds a lot like Siren's Cove

[FDR's Think Tank]

17 minutes ago, Soulstinger said:

^ this sounds a lot like Siren's Cove

But for Villains only (not counting missions generated for heroes in response to overwhelming gang Influence) and across the entire game!

 

It can and should be done!

[Soulstinger]

I dunno if it can be done at all to be honest. This volunteer dev team is working with secondhand spaghetti code and on their own personal time...

 

I would try to set our sights a little lower as to what we could request and support as a group for them to work on in this regard.. perhaps something like a timed event like the zombie/rikti invasions where the invading enemies are classic primary villain groups determined by some sort of redside community effort.

 

A copy paste of the invasion mechanic with different enemies tied to some sort of player-driven trigger (just for example) would be far easier to implement than what you were suggesting, as cool as your idea sounds!

Edited October 23, 2019 by Soulstinger

[FDR's Think Tank]

I think a crimewave mechanic is definitely something the Redside would get excited over, certainly. I don't want to give up on something more in depth though... If the game goes legit, they will likely get their hands on official code notes, nevermind link up with some of the original devs!

 

Perhaps Crimewave mechanics could be tied into special Newspaper missions where villains can advance various gangs for special gang specific rewards. Heroes could earn those rewards fighting the Crimewave, but they would have functionally less agency and opportunity than Villains, due to the opposing nature's of the playstyle.

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by FDR's Think Tank

[quixoteprog]

It does not help that much like CoH CoV does not have money. The rationale for doing this in CoH is that "heroes" would not be driven by a need for money.  But Villains CERTAINLY would. Several of the contacts that sent me on missions actually talked about me getting "paid" but I never did. It just does not feel like you are someone who is out for himself if you are just doing this to impress someone else.

[Lines]

42 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

Perhaps Crimewave mechanics could be tied into special Newspaper missions where villains can advance various gangs for special gang specific rewards. Heroes could earn those rewards fighting the Crimewave, but they would have functionally less agency and opportunity than Villains, due to the opposing nature's of the playstyle.

 

Not to compromise your idea against reality (I think we should dream big and I adore anything that breathes life into the city), even something as small as paper missions and certain arcs developing a factional standing, with some kind of reward for each group, would go a long way to make redside feel villainous. From there you could really build up ideas. For instance, your highest faction could help you rob banks in mayhem missions while your lowest tries to compete.

 

This kind of agency is how you change the PC’s role from protagonist to antagonist, which is why the existing content missed the mark. You’re still a protagonist in CoV.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Lines

[biostem]

The problem is that, generally speaking, villains act and heroes react;  Villains initiate events and take steps to realize their schemes.  Heroes take action *against* what those villains have already begun.  To truly make our redside characters into villains, we'd need to be able to establish their motives and method of accomplishing their goals;  Maybe your character is a schemer and engages in blackmail and kidnapping.  Maybe your character is all about physicality, so they directly attack their opponents.  Either way, we, as the OP pointed out, just take out marching orders from our contacts, which is more mercenary-like than truly an independent force...

[FDR's Think Tank]

To really define the kind of criminal you are (or aren't, for those ~purpleside traitors~ 😛 ) You could even go into detail about what sorts of crimes each gang faction specializes in.

 

I.E. Vazhilok focuses on Science Origin and Organ Harvesting/Human Trafficking.

 

Or Hellions Deal in Magic Origin and Theft.

 

And so on! If you choose certain types of crimes, you will get more reputation with associated factions.

 

Then it feels less like the contacts are directing you and more like you are using them.

 

[Lost Ninja]

1 hour ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

In some ways you are correct... Even as an Agent of Arachnos, you are less an independent Villain and more of an expendible pawn. Arachnos doesn't own Villainy.

 

The first to fix this is to improve the Newspaper Missions, which allow you to perform your own heists and scheme your own plots.  It's the right direction and bank robberies are the most specific reminder than you are actually an outlaw in City of Villains.

 

The second way to consider the difference between Blueside and Redside. Blueside has organizations like Longbow, Wyvern, and more specifically G.I.F.T., S.E.R.A.P.H., etc.... The organizations on Redside occassionally mirror Blue, but are usually more the personal projects of different NPC villains. You could argue there aren't as many specifically for Redside, since many organizations serve as punching bags for Red and Blue. So for villains, it's important for them to have a goal. Heroes have a desire to protect. If Villains are in it for the benefits, those probably shouldn't be left entirely to our imagination. Villains are harder to write custom story archs for because motives are more ranged than for heroes.

 

So... How do you fix it? Masterminds can summon goons, but all villains should have the opportunity to form gangs with NPC groups, fight for territory, and have lackeys that carry out petty crimes for them... Even if they all basically can't help in the battles the Villain fights themself. Power over others is a key thing all Villains want to some degree.

 

Redside needs more ways to compete with itself, and since PvP is totally unbalanced, it needs to be largely removed from combat and rely on management, tactics, and Grand strategy.

 

In fact, Redside players could even fight over territory in Paragon too, being string pullers and boosting gangs they are allied with. This is a massive project, if you understand... Giving villains the ability to affect the territories gangs actually hold on maps. Heroes would need a way to know what gangs control where, but in many ways this is something that should be done for the long term benefit of the game.

 

You need to be able to create dynamic territories for a living breathing game and a superhero game needs it even more. It's better to create a point of player interaction and control rather than only changing the city when a giant story arch is concieved, then keeping mirrors of the old layouts.

 

You can even build in mechanics for strong gangs to fall, either due to increased police pressure, special hero missions targeting strong gangs in each zone, or increased rewards for villains to support smaller aggressive gangs.

 

A villain needs a way to show off to other bad guys, but also to heroes as well!

 

Each City zone would need to establish gang headquarters for the gangs of each territory... Something they probably should have done a while ago anyway, with improvements to graphics.

 

Give us Gang Wars!

 

I'll lay my cards on the table here, I played the CoV beta, and played CoV at launch until my MM was in the late 30s (about three months) and then I largely stopped playing CoV. I've never really gone back to it. I find the themes depressing, the maps gloomy (which I suspect is the intention of their design, but I don't like them). And I really dislike being evil. I can do bad, I can kill people for personal profit and I don't necessarily see myself as a hero (though the game does).

 

That all said if they implemented your suggestion I'd be back... maybe not as full Villain but certainly in something like it... 😄

[Lines]

There might be a little bit of dissonance as you align yourself with existing groups, say Hellions, and then find yourself in an arc that requires you to hunt Hellions. Maybe there’s a way around that though.

 

One might be to introduce new factions with a few generic themes and clear rivalries. Villains would encounter them almost exclusively in paper and mayhem missions and heroes if a villain prompts an invasion with their group. (The group could also be a sub faction or splinter of an existing villain group to avoid adding to the villain soup)

 

If normal defeat badges are associated with the factions, this might create an interesting out-of-character meta coop where hero badge hunters need villains to invade.

[biostem]

5 minutes ago, Lines said:

There might be a little bit of dissonance as you align yourself with existing groups, say Hellions, and then find yourself in an arc that requires you to hunt Hellions. Maybe there’s a way around that though.

 

One might be to introduce new factions with a few generic themes and clear rivalries. Villains would encounter them almost exclusively in paper and mayhem missions and heroes if a villain prompts an invasion with their group. (The group could also be a sub faction or splinter of an existing villain group to avoid adding to the villain soup)

 

If normal defeat badges are associated with the factions, this might create an interesting out-of-character meta coop where hero badge hunters need villains to invade.

Instead of introducing an entirely new faction, here's one way you could simplify things;  Give each of the existing factions a sort of "motivation" or "operating style", and allow our characters to align themselves with the ones that best fit them.  So, for instance, Hellions might be more about corrupting people, while Skulls may lean more toward brutality.  Goldbrickers could be all about greed, while the Family is about intimidation and power.  The Circle of Thorns may be about the acquisition of arcane knowledge and power, while Vahzilok are all about "For [mad] science!".

[Lines]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

Instead of introducing an entirely new faction, here's one way you could simplify things;  Give each of the existing factions a sort of "motivation" or "operating style", and allow our characters to align themselves with the ones that best fit them.  So, for instance, Hellions might be more about corrupting people, while Skulls may lean more toward brutality.  Goldbrickers could be all about greed, while the Family is about intimidation and power.  The Circle of Thorns may be about the acquisition of arcane knowledge and power, while Vahzilok are all about "For [mad] science!".

I agree that’d be coolest, but the issue was then avoiding how existing arcs place you at odds with those factions. Some complex stories and task forces could become a bit strange.

 

Establishing sub-factions, splinters, rebel groups, etc, of the existing villain groups would be an easy fix. Plus those subgroups could have a narrative power vacuum just waiting to be filled, whereas existing groups already have established and sometimes complex hierarchies.

 

And it would give Vahz minions the potential for a presence on the rogue isles.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Lines

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Lines said:

I agree that’d be coolest, but the issue was then avoiding how existing arcs place you at odds with those factions. Some complex stories and task forces could become a bit strange.

 

Establishing sub-factions, splinters, revel groups, etc, of the existing villain groups would be an easy fix. Plus those subgroups could have a narrative power vacuum just waiting to be filled, whereas existing groups already have complex hierarchies.

 

And it would give Vahz minions the potential for a presence on the rogue isles.

Understood.  It'd require a pretty complex web of allegiances and scripting groups to react to you based upon said allegiances.  I suppose it's all just hopeful thinking at this point, and requires a good deal of handwaving...

[srmalloy]

5 hours ago, SmokinIndo said:

Right now, the Rogue Isles shouldn't be called City of Villains. It should be called City of Mercenaries. 95% of story arcs written in City of Villains follow this basic premise: a contact needs somebody to be his muscle, so he "hires" you to go beat up bad guys. The real villain is the contact your working for, while you're nothing more than his goon.

This is the primary problem I have with the way that playing redside feels -- you start off as a legbreaker for people not much better than street thugs, then you advance to being a legbreaker for a small-time boss, then a legbreaker for a mid-range boss, then a legbreaker for a big-time boss, and finally become a legbreaker for Lord Recluse. FDR's Think Tank is correct that what we need is some way for redside characters to get some independent agency, with control over the activities of an increasing number and quality of your own 'boys', sending them out on their own missions to pull jobs for you. I also think that this would involve a huge amount of programming and writing, since you would want to have a fairly wide variety of long-term goals for a villain to pick from, which would affect the types of missions that you'd need to send your thugs out to perform. Some of them would be shared -- after all, knocking over a bank to acquire funds doesn't care about the end purpose you're going to put the funds to -- while some would be specific to a particular goal. You'd have advancement toward your goal by meeting certain requirements in terms of the resources you gain from the missions your thugs run.

[Lines]

(FWIW, I just wanted to add that the reason we saw new vigilante/rogue arc content was because HC was trying out branching stories with moral choices. It’s obviously easier to give distinct moral choices to the two intermittent alignments than to heroes or villains.)

 

It would be a huge undertaking, absolutely. Something like this could transform redside and set it apart properly from blue.

 

In my head I’m imagining a copy-paste of the alignment UI, with each fill being a milestone with one group. A paper mission adds 1, a relevant arc adds 2 and a mayhem mission adds 3 (or something). Rival factions get their alignment reversed in this way.

 

Milestones each develop the plot:

1 - destabilise the faction’s leadership

2 - rise to power

3 - establish a powerbase

4 - doomsday!

(or something)

 

Each level adds perks you can do with the group, like a long cooldown summon at lower levels, or some way you can start a Paragon City invasion at higher levels. Over time, tonnes of things could happen. Spawns of your faction versus rival factions could sometimes appear near you in some zones. Entire gang wars and controlling territories could gradually be built off this system.

 

There would need to be enough to do in the process to level the lion’s share of 1-50, with existing arcs as filler, in order to have an effect on the character as an antagonist so sheer quantity would take a lot of work. The character still needs to be a destined one, so their power level can’t exceed Recluse in the pecking order. The doomsday schemes can’t outshine project destiny. It’s about balance.

 

One thing that would create work is having too many factions. One for each existing villain group would be huge. Would one per origin be too few? (Who do you pick for natural, for instance? Family or Knives of Artemis? They share origin but are nothing alike.)

 

Or could the framework be designed such that adding a new faction isn’t too labour intensive after the core mechanisms are in place?

Edited October 24, 2019 by Lines

[Megajoule]

Player agency in MMOs is fraught, because ultimately the PC(s) can't do anything that would significantly change the game world.  Hero or villain, turn around and the same opponents are back where they were before.  Destroy (part of) a zone, and it's fixed five seconds after you exit the instance.  Status quo isn't just god, it's baked in at the code level.

[Steampunkette]

Redside needs more Hero Content.

 

Blueside needs more Villain Content.

 

In the Rogue Isles you are Recluse's plaything. That's the most you could ever aspire to because the Rogue Isles are his. He conquered them. You can't change that narrative, so any Supervillain who hangs out, there, is -going- to be Recluse's plaything. Hanging out in -his- sandbox.

 

But over in Paragon? Over in Paragon you could be the Archvillain to the Freedom Phalanx! The NPCs are heroic so you could be an actual villain in relation to them!

 

Just introduce contacts who are flunkies, spies, and minions and write the stories as though they're providing you with information about your rivals and enemies so you can go out and crush them... rather than people with their own motivations and goals that you are fulfilling.

[FDR's Think Tank]

19 hours ago, Lines said:

I agree that’d be coolest, but the issue was then avoiding how existing arcs place you at odds with those factions. Some complex stories and task forces could become a bit strange.

 

Establishing sub-factions, splinters, rebel groups, etc, of the existing villain groups would be an easy fix. Plus those subgroups could have a narrative power vacuum just waiting to be filled, whereas existing groups already have established and sometimes complex hierarchies.

 

And it would give Vahz minions the potential for a presence on the rogue isles.

On one hand, those gangs are big enough there are bound to be internal struggles...

 

On the other hand, it would be great to see them add "Frozen Hellions" or some other variants of each Gang. I know we are already calling Gangs as Factions here, but what if Factions were actually different parts of each Gang?

 

Then Crimewaves could be longer lasting and actually be represented by a change of the Footsoldiers on the streets! It's one way around not having territory gangwars and has to be easier to code... But with nearly the same payoff.