Widow need damage resistance they are too fragile

[nihilii]

What Widows need IMHO is no redraw option on their claws. Same goes for Soldiers.

 

Night Widows should be allowed to get Build Up and Follow Up together, too. In the age of Gaussian BU procs, Fortunatas walk all over that initial balance decision by stacking Gaussianed Aim with Follow Up (on top of all the other nice toys they get).

[siolfir]

13 hours ago, macskull said:

I'm a little confused here. Most of these suggestions are just plain bad.

1. The entire concealment pool is pretty much a wasted pick on a PvE build unless you have power picks to spare and need things for LotG mules, but a Widow should has so many powers that can slot LotGs it's not needed.
2. If you're going to dip into the leadership pool on a Widow you'd honestly only really need Assault and maybe Manuevers. You already get better versions of the entire leadership pool in your secondary, and Vengeance is available in-set at level 35.
3. I don't think it's "SOP" for anyone to take the medicine pool and recall friend unless you're a "healer" and those are pretty much useless on a halfway decent team anyways. A Widow is probably not going to have room to get three powers deep into the medicine pool when almost any other pool is a better choice.
4. Rune of Protection is a decent choice if you have power picks to spare. That being said, investing in the fighting pool (why wouldn't you, after all) gets you some solid S/L resistance, a good IO build will get you a modest amount of resistance to everything else except maybe E/N/toxic, and Foresight's scaling resistance bonus means you'll be doing pretty well for yourself once your health gets low.

Going two deep into Fighting for Tough is as much of a waste as two deep into Medicine to get Aid Self IMO, but you can get decent E/N with Shield Wall (it's not like Widows are missing defense powers to slot them in) - the problem is going to be slots. I just aimed for softcap without Mind Link, so I could use it for "debuff resistance", and let the scaling resistances, Preventive Medicine absorb proc, and kill speed take care of the rest.

 

For Vengeance... meh. If you're already two deep into Leadership (Assault and Maneuvers) then Vengeance is the same power in PvE from the pool or secondary (same range, AoE, target cap, buffs). I agree that concealment is a waste for a PvE build, though.

 

4 hours ago, nihilii said:

What Widows need IMHO is no redraw option on their claws. Same goes for Soldiers.

 

Night Widows should be allowed to get Build Up and Follow Up together, too. In the age of Gaussian BU procs, Fortunatas walk all over that initial balance decision by stacking Gaussianed Aim with Follow Up (on top of all the other nice toys they get).

I don't think that the Build Up/Follow Up lockout should be there, and I would love a no redraw option that lets me cycle Follow-Up and Dominate (or Venom Grenade and Shatter) faster, but a lower-hanging fruit that Widows and Soldiers really need is the "damage AT" damage cap of +400% instead of +300%.

[SeraphimKensai]

I soloed an ITF with a Widow. I think they are just fine as is.

[siolfir]

5 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I soloed an ITF with a Widow. I think they are just fine as is.

Well, yeah, but wouldn't a higher damage cap be nice?

[Razia]

May I suggest doing all the stat accolades too, because they made a big difference in HP on all my toons.

[macskull]

7 hours ago, siolfir said:

Going two deep into Fighting for Tough is as much of a waste as two deep into Medicine to get Aid Self IMO, but you can get decent E/N with Shield Wall (it's not like Widows are missing defense powers to slot them in) - the problem is going to be slots. I just aimed for softcap without Mind Link, so I could use it for "debuff resistance", and let the scaling resistances, Preventive Medicine absorb proc, and kill speed take care of the rest.

 

For Vengeance... meh. If you're already two deep into Leadership (Assault and Maneuvers) then Vengeance is the same power in PvE from the pool or secondary (same range, AoE, target cap, buffs). I agree that concealment is a waste for a PvE build, though.

If I'm taking the fighting pool on a PvE build the end goal is Weave (it's like 8% defense on a Widow when slotted) and Tough is just something nice along the way. The poster I was replying to was trying to say that OP should take the medicine pool for the ally rez which is just plain goofy. Re: the leadership pool discussion, I'm mostly with you on it. I don't think I'd really take pool Maneuvers and would only really use it to get double Assault.

[Haijinx]

I wouldn't build a widow without tough and weave.  Tough is a good spot for the two 3% def uniques

 

Add that to Weave and this path is a big amount of your total defense to all. 

 

 

 

 

[siolfir]

58 minutes ago, macskull said:

If I'm taking the fighting pool on a PvE build the end goal is Weave (it's like 8% defense on a Widow when slotted) and Tough is just something nice along the way. The poster I was replying to was trying to say that OP should take the medicine pool for the ally rez which is just plain goofy. Re: the leadership pool discussion, I'm mostly with you on it. I don't think I'd really take pool Maneuvers and would only really use it to get double Assault.

Yeah, Weave is nice (5% base, same as Tactical Training: Maneuvers) but for me the issue was wasting a power pick on either Boxing or Kick, then taking Tough when I didn't really have slots to spare for it so I wouldn't use it anyway. Since I could softcap outside of Mind Link using Maneuvers, I was already taking Leadership for double Assault, and I could get Mind Link perma to put me over the incarnate softcap, it was an easy decision. Plus I normally run in at least a duo, so being able to throw around a little over 28% defense to everyone around helps, too.

 

24 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I wouldn't build a widow without tough and weave.  Tough is a good spot for the two 3% def uniques

 

Add that to Weave and this path is a big amount of your total defense to all. 

Indomitable Will takes resistance sets, that's where I ended up putting them.

[Haijinx]

Good to know.  Still tough is a chunk of S/L resist.

 

My widow is around 50% S/L 

 

 

[Gulbasaur]

14 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I soloed an ITF with a Widow. I think they are just fine as is.

I've tanked one with my fortunata. They're somewhere in the middle of the threat table so if you don't have a tank or a scrapper, they're next on the list. I quite often do tip missions to help lowbies level in Atlas Park and good aggro with my widow and the power pool AoE taunt.

 

Control more than makes up for the middling damage resistance. Enemies that don't move don't hurt you.

 

I think part of the issue is the power difference between a night widow and a fortunata. Night widows are stalkers with fewer crits and one or two ranged attacks and fortunatas are a dominator-stalker combo that can hold elite bosses. Control is a survival mechanic and fortunata have enough of it to tank. 

Edited December 24, 2019 by Gulbasaur

[tidge]

I also forgo the Fighting pool on Widows. They don't need the slots for Resist or Defense, and slotting Tough for S/L resistance is simply a waste.

 

To the OP: if you really want a click heal, go three powers into the Presence pool for Unrelenting. I find that to be a good fit for the high Defense ATs like the Widow/Fortunata.

[Haijinx]

34 minutes ago, tidge said:

I also forgo the Fighting pool on Widows. They don't need the slots for Resist or Defense, and slotting Tough for S/L resistance is simply a waste.

 

To the OP: if you really want a click heal, go three powers into the Presence pool for Unrelenting. I find that to be a good fit for the high Defense ATs like the Widow/Fortunata.

Interesting.

 

I always go the other route, even on blasters.  I always take tough and weave and make sure the res or def is near the ED point. 

 

 

[tidge]

14 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Interesting.

 

I always go the other route, even on blasters.  I always take tough and weave and make sure the res or def is near the ED point.

Widows don't need Defense (Weave) and the Toughness simply doesn't offer enough IMO. There are other Secondaries that can take Resist IOs.

[Haijinx]

39 minutes ago, tidge said:

Widows don't need Defense (Weave) and the Toughness simply doesn't offer enough IMO. There are other Secondaries that can take Resist IOs.

I use weave to avoid the whole trying to get mindlink perma problem.

 

Widows can softcap without it, the flexibility in their builds is impressive. 

 

I would have agreed about tough in the old days, but now that you can build a lot of resist with IOs you can hit about 50%  S/L with tough on a widow.

 

Considering most def debuffs that hit you are lethal damage,  i find it meshes well into the overall scheme.  

 

 

I do, however, never get aid self, which a lot of people seem to like.  A lot of whqt you would/can do with an SR also works with widows.

 

[siolfir]

56 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

A lot of whqt you would/can do with an SR also works with widows.

That's because outside of the debuff resistance and third power for scaling resistance, the actual defense numbers are close (and higher for melee defense).

 

Widows only get defense debuff resistance from Indomitable Will (30% unenhanceable) and Foresight (17.3%, enhanceable), where SR gets it in each toggle (13.84%), passive (6.92%), and in Practiced Brawler (30%), but the widow scaling resistance actually kicks in earlier and each passive provides more resistance at the same level of health - they just don't have 3 passives providing it.

 

Baseline numbers, SR Scrapper vs Widow (ignoring Mind Link):

 

Super Reflexes

• 13.875% toggle for each position,
• 5.625% passive for each position,
• 11.25% psionic defense in Focused Senses,
• scaling S/L/E/N/F/C resistance of minmax(60 - source.kHitPoints%, 0, 100) / 60 * 0.2 in each passive (so x3)
• Total of 19.5% unslotted defense to each position, with 11.25% psi defense, in 6 powers
• Click mez protection covering hold, sleep, stun, knockback, knockup, and immobilize making power #7.

Arachnos Widow

• 7.5% melee passive (Combat Training: Defensive),
• 7.5% passive for all positions (Foresight),
• 5% toggle for all types and positions (Tactical Training: Maneuvers),
• scaling S/L/E/N/F/C resistance of minmax(75 - source.kHitPoints%, 0, 100) / 60 * 0.25 in each passive (so x2),
• 2.5% toggle for all positions (Mask Presence, 5% higher when not suppressed),
• 30% base psi resistance in 1 toggle and 1 passive (10 from Indomitable Will, 20 from Foresight),
• Toggle mez protection covering hold, sleep, stun, knockback, knockup, immobilize, fear, and confuse,
• Total of 15% ranged/AoE defense, 22.5% melee defense, 5% psi defense, 30% psi resistance in 5 powers (including mez protection).

That's the Widow without Mind Link, and without running Maneuvers (+3.5% defense) or Weave (+5% defense), which they have more power picks available to take because everything listed above requires two fewer powers than the SR Scrapper. Add another power for Mind Link running, and you can add 10% to all defense types and positions (32.5/25/25% m/r/aoe positions, 15% psi defense) and throw in another 30% psi resistance (60% base total), and you're still at one less power required than SR with more coverage on mez protection and the highest baseline psi resistance in the game.

[tidge]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I use weave to avoid the whole trying to get mindlink perma problem.

 

I would have agreed about tough in the old days, but now that you can build a lot of resist with IOs you can hit about 50%  S/L with tough on a widow.

With Mental Training perma-Mind Link isn't difficult. That being said, it is only when teaming (or in extreme circumstance) that I even worry about using it. Fortunata/Widow positional Defenses are simply good enough.

I know the conventional wisdom about S/L resistance but with different types of damage I would much rather use the power choices (and slots) elsewhere. YMMV.

[Shockacon]

Gonna have to side with the people saying Widows don't need it. Yeah, AVs can be quite problematic but against other mobs a good Widow should be able to take out the target before it gets enough hits on you. Heck, I just started up another one on a different server just coz...