Kheldians. General Improvements and Null Gull Option

[LordgrayinBC]

I really think the Kheldians need a revamp.  They are an awesome class, allowing someone to switch between blaster role, and Tank roll, however, only in human form can they benefit from other powers (speed, healing, etc)  I think this really needs to change.  Allowing power pools to be accessed while shapeshifted would be a godsend.

 

Also, a switch to turn on and off Quantums... who came up with this idea anyhow??  Villains that can one hit stun, two hit kill you?  NO THANK YOU..  Give us the ability to turn them off if we want.

 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

if played and built well the kheldians are amazingly powerful hence the specific enemies. 

[boggo2300]

/jranger

 

Don't destroy the awesomeness of Kheld's with the ever growing faceroll train

[Haijinx]

I have some ideas

 

Increase the human form damage scale slightly.

 

Suppress human form toggles when shape shifted, the retoggle nonsense makes playing triform a pita. 

 

Give Nova form +jump or whatever is needed so they are as agile as hover+cj.

 

Give dwarf forms a weak taunt aura 

[boggo2300]

48 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I have some ideas

 

Increase the human form damage scale slightly.

 

Suppress human form toggles when shape shifted, the retoggle nonsense makes playing triform a pita. 

 

Give Nova form +jump or whatever is needed so they are as agile as hover+cj.

 

Give dwarf forms a weak taunt aura 

not a fan of any of those, they will all damage the unique flavour of both PB and WS (and the flavour between the two types are very different) 

 

Again, hands of ma squids!!!!

[SwitchFade]

Please excuse the Kheldian players for not explaining again why this is ntp needed and see the numerous other threads that discuss why a revamp is unnecessary. They're amazing as is.

 

Sorry, I must jranger.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, boggo2300 said:

not a fan of any of those, they will all damage the unique flavour of both PB and WS (and the flavour between the two types are very different) 

 

Again, hands of ma squids!!!!

You are saying you like having to retoggle all the time?

 

And that the flying squid which can only fly should be harder to control than other flying heroes? 

 

And that the Dwarf Backup tank should control aggro less well than a scrapper with a taunt aura?

Edited January 2, 2020 by Haijinx

[boggo2300]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

You are saying you like having to retoggle all the time?

 

And that the flying squid which can only fly should be harder to control than other flying heroes? 

 

And that the Dwarf Backup tank should control aggro less well than a scrapper with a taunt aura?

It's part of the Kheld dance you only toggle what you need when you hit human form, often none because you wont be staying in it that long.

I find squids easier to control than my other flying heroes (which is most of them)

Honestly I don't think I've had aggro management issues with Lobster form, but I pretty much always play using the dance not sticking to a single form for even a mob, thats where the true power of the kheld is, you have to make the three forms one (pardon the zen)

 

I just feel this would be power creep, it would take Khelds from hell on wheels to, game over man

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

It's part of the Kheld dance you only toggle what you need when you hit human form, often none because you wont be staying in it that long.

I find squids easier to control than my other flying heroes (which is most of them)

Honestly I don't think I've had aggro management issues with Lobster form, but I pretty much always play using the dance not sticking to a single form for even a mob, thats where the true power of the kheld is, you have to make the three forms one (pardon the zen)

 

I just feel this would be power creep, it would take Khelds from hell on wheels to, game over man

I think you are wrong,  and that your familiarity with Khelds is bias.

 

Squids are extremely hard to control.  And there is no remedy for it.  While other heroes can pick combat jumping to improve flight control.  Since only non-human Khelds can't benefit from pool power toggles, there is literally nothing you can do except "git gud".  

 

If you look on the Tanker fourms they will always decry the taunt auras in SR and WP as being too weak to adequately do the Tank Role.  Well Khelds are expected to be able to do the tank role, and have no access to Taunt Auras at all.  They will always be inferior to other Tank types due to the lack of the Fighting pool, but to hobble AND handicap them is a bit much.  

 

The Toggles dropping all the time is what makes playing a Tri Forum horrible.  I end up not picking any Kheld Shields because, why bother?  I just pick stuff I can cram LOTGs into instead.  

 

As far as the base damage in human form, it makes human form only Peacebringers sort of like a petless mastermind, at least until they get their last defense power.   By which point, does it matter?  At 50 Blasters will have Kheldian level survivability.  

 

There is a reason they stay near the bottom of the Played ATs.  And its not really Power Creep from a overall Game Balance standpoint until they actually get better than someone else at something.  And there is a lot of room to go before that accidentally happens.  

 

TBH at their current power level having kryptonite-ish enemies around is like adding insult to injury.  Id rather bring Khelds up some than removing those enemies though.  

 

 

[boggo2300]

7 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think you are wrong,  and that your familiarity with Khelds is bias.

 

Squids are extremely hard to control.  And there is no remedy for it.  While other heroes can pick combat jumping to improve flight control.  Since only non-human Khelds can't benefit from pool power toggles, there is literally nothing you can do except "git gud".  

 

If you look on the Tanker fourms they will always decry the taunt auras in SR and WP as being too weak to adequately do the Tank Role.  Well Khelds are expected to be able to do the tank role, and have no access to Taunt Auras at all.  They will always be inferior to other Tank types due to the lack of the Fighting pool, but to hobble AND handicap them is a bit much.  

 

The Toggles dropping all the time is what makes playing a Tri Forum horrible.  I end up not picking any Kheld Shields because, why bother?  I just pick stuff I can cram LOTGs into instead.  

 

As far as the base damage in human form, it makes human form only Peacebringers sort of like a petless mastermind, at least until they get their last defense power.   By which point, does it matter?  At 50 Blasters will have Kheldian level survivability.  

 

There is a reason they stay near the bottom of the Played ATs.  And its not really Power Creep from a overall Game Balance standpoint until they actually get better than someone else at something.  And there is a lot of room to go before that accidentally happens.  

 

TBH at their current power level having kryptonite-ish enemies around is like adding insult to injury.  Id rather bring Khelds up some than removing those enemies though.  

 

 

I think you are wrong, you are trying to slot Khelds into being alternates of other ATs they aren't and will always fail if played that way,  what makes them special to me and the others that love them is they are DIFFERENT, you need to play them completely differently than other AT's and thats what makes them special in a way no other AT is, even VEATS

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

I think you are wrong, you are trying to slot Khelds into being alternates of other ATs they aren't and will always fail if played that way,  what makes them special to me and the others that love them is they are DIFFERENT, you need to play them completely differently than other AT's and thats what makes them special in a way no other AT is, even VEATS

Yep, for a fully built, well designed IOd Kheld I'd like to be able to do the following .. 

 

• Id like Nova form to be as good at blasting as a SO only Blaster that made some poor power pick choices 
• Id like Dwarf form to be as good at the tank role as say a WP scrapper with less damage 
• I'd like the human form to be able to use the big blind, and the build up and to not die because they cant get toggles up fast enough 

I know I'm asking a lot.  

 

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Yep, for a fully built, well designed IOd Kheld I'd like to be able to do the following .. 

 

• Id like Nova form to be as good at blasting as a SO only Blaster that made some poor power pick choices 
• Id like Dwarf form to be as good at the tank role as say a WP scrapper with less damage 
• I'd like the human form to be able to use the big blind, and the build up and to not die because they cant get toggles up fast enough 

I know I'm asking a lot.  

 

so you want Khelds less powerful?

 

honestly Squid is pretty much dps of a blaster just minus

Lobster is more offence than tank role, it's like a tougher scrap, best way for a kheld to get aggro is in Nova then shuffle to Dwarf when they start coming

human form, you should be doing the power you shift there for like the build up, then shift immediately to one of the other forms (based on whats happening) 

 

It sounds to me (apologies if I'm wrong) that you are trying to play in a single form at a time, and while thats do-able, it misses the magic of the AT's my attack chain usually includes a quick zip through all three forms, unless it's a trash mob (not sure if it's me or if it is actually true, but the Kheld dance seems WAY easier on a shade than a PB)

[Redlynne]

/jranger

[Gulbasaur]

 

9 hours ago, LordgrayinBC said:

Also, a switch to turn on and off Quantums... who came up with this idea anyhow??  Villains that can one hit stun, two hit kill you?  NO THANK YOU..  Give us the ability to turn them off if we want.

I actually miss old-style quantums that did unrestistable damage. Now I barely even notice they're there, but previously they could take you down in Dwarf form.

 

There also used to be nictus crystals in missions that spawned, but they were annoying for the whole team, not just the Kheldian. 

 

5 hours ago, Haijinx said:

• Id like Nova form to be as good at blasting as a SO only Blaster that made some poor power pick choices 
• Id like Dwarf form to be as good at the tank role as say a WP scrapper with less damage 
• I'd like the human form to be able to use the big blind, and the build up and to not die because they cant get toggles up fast enough 

Novas are mathematically pretty similar to blasters in terms of damage scales, but they suffer a bit that they never get above the (about) T5 blaster powers. I'd love it if they picked things up over time - the fact that the nova rotation is permanent from level 6 really annoys me as it does make them flatten out very hard.

 

Dwarfs can hold aggro very well if you spam the taunt. I have never had any problems pulling aggro off brutes (who usually have build differences from tankers that make them less aggro-sticky), for example. They do absolutely anaemic damage, though. 

 

Both PB and WS have a "become unkillable" power later on. You can rain down nukes with almost tanker tier damage resistances. 

-----

 

 

Multi-form warshades can, and usually do when they hit the late-30s,  run around with self-capped damage, +50% ToHit and 85% resists.

 

Peacebringers rock human-only builds, which means they can toggle up and keep them running making them more of a sentinel than a sentinel with higher damage resistance, more nukes and more melee. When Light Form hits perma, you genuinely do become something else entirely. 

 

I've been on teams with Kheldians and when played moderately well they really help a team. 

 

That all being said, the fact that they haven't really been touched by the tank changes on beta is a bit of an annoyance and they are outshined a bit by the VEATs, but the VEATs are pretty darn shiny. I would:

• Increase the Dwarf form threat rating from 3 to 4 so it gets higher aggro priority
• Mini-Defiance for novas? allow them to do a bit more damage over time.
• Add some sort of power progression to forms to stop them plateauing so low. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

if there must be a change id like an end cost reduction in human form maybe?

[boggo2300]

6 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

if there must be a change id like an end cost reduction in human form maybe?

certainly the least objectionable proposal, though I'm not convinced it's needed (and you don't sound convinced it is either)

[Saiyajinzoningen]

well normally its fine but coupled with the end drop from light form when it drops its kinda annoying lol but not unmanageable 

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

well normally its fine but coupled with the end drop from light form when it drops its kinda annoying lol but not unmanageable 

but would it be as fun if it was too easy 😄

[TechbotAlpha]

Other than wishing to change PBs KB to KD (Yes, I know there's an IO, No, I'm not going to lose set bonii by having to have it in every power...) I honestly don't think much change is needed. Maybe remove the HP crash from Lightform? Didn't they change a lot of the other Godmodes to not HP crash, or am I mis-remembering?

Also, I'm honestly disappointed they just ripped ALL the unique mobs out. No Dwarves and Novas, no Void Seekers, the No Shadows Cysts really bit, as I intended to use them IC in some missions with my SG. Then I found they... don't.... actually spawn anything? Very, very lame. Personally I'd like an option at Null to turn them all back ON. 

[Lazarillo]

I just want PBs to be able to Foot-stomp again.

[Bossk_Hogg]

The biggest thing IMO, is human form needs some inherent mez resistance, on par with VEATS. Also add in Cysts, and have badges for them, voids, dwarves, novas, etc.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Bossk_Hogg

[Saiyajinzoningen]

 

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

The biggest thing IMO, is human form needs some inherent mez resistance, on par with VEATS. Also add in Cysts, and have badges for them, voids, dwarves, novas, etc.

their inherent mez resist is dependent on team size

[Bossk_Hogg]

6 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

 

their inherent mez resist is dependent on team size

It depends on number of controllers/doms on the team. Which is typically 1 max. So yay, mag 1 protection? I guess I'm safe from dark pit. Otherwise you get to enjoy being perma held outside of lightform or dwarf. 

 

Changing the inherent to always provide 1 of each AT category would help greatly. And let them outdamage a solo defender.

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

The biggest thing IMO, is human form needs some inherent mez resistance, on par with VEATS. Also add in Cysts, and have badges for them, voids, dwarves, novas, etc.

Okay, yeah, this would be nice, too.

[Bossk_Hogg]

Alternately, a bit of mez protection in the shields, to give people a reason to take them. It doesnt have to be much - mag 2-3. Just enough to give human form some dignity and be useful other than crapping out dark extractions, inner light, mires/eclipse and going back to a shapeshifted form.