NCsoft files trademark application for superhero MMORPG it abandoned

[Haijinx]

Some intern who had no more PTO days finally got near the bottom of their task list.

 

=====

 

What is this?  2013 item "File Trademark for City of Heroes".  We owned City of Heroes?  

 

Oh cool, ill just shoot this over to legal ..

[boggo2300]

1 hour ago, MTeague said:

I don't require NCSoft to actually say "we apologize. we were flat wrong. we musta been mashugana."  (Although if they ever did, I would frame it.)

As long as they let CoH HC be, and ACT as if they have learned, I will be content, even if they never admit how much revenue they cost themselves or how much they jerked the playerbase around.

I suspect the best you will get will be "this was all part of our brilliant marketing plan!" corporate culture being what it is world wide

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Some intern who had no more PTO days finally got near the bottom of their task list.

 

=====

 

What is this?  2013 item "File Trademark for City of Heroes".  We owned City of Heroes?  

 

Oh cool, ill just shoot this over to legal ..

been on the wrong side of that exact thing more than once in my working life,  Microsoft absolutely SUCK for it

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

been on the wrong side of that exact thing more than once in my working life,  Microsoft absolutely SUCK for it

Yeah.  I guess in my image City of Heroes is probably not something the average middle management of NCSoft ever thinks about.

[boggo2300]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Yeah.  I guess in my image City of Heroes is probably not something the average middle management of NCSoft ever thinks about.

I suspect even knows it exists...

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

I suspect even knows it exists...

Which might actually be a bad thing.  Since they could just be auto renewing their IP stuff with no agenda at all.

 

Just because its on some list. Institutional Inertia.  The actual management has no clue.  To legal its just billable hours.

 

When I worked in Ford World we spent $100,000s  just on whatever so that they wouldn't cut our budget for the next year. 

[boggo2300]

6 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Which might actually be a bad thing.  Since they could just be auto renewing their IP stuff with no agenda at all.

 

Just because its on some list. Institutional Inertia.  The actual management has no clue.  To legal its just billable hours.

 

When I worked in Ford World we spent $100,000s  just on whatever so that they wouldn't cut our budget for the next year. 

I'm honestly not sure to take this renewal as just an automatic thing as you've said, or as a result of the ongoing negotiation, if it's the latter its a good thing, the former, well it's nothing thats going to affect us either way, so I don't know about bad thing, more a doesn't really affect anything, though NC isn't as big as the companies we are talking about, so maybe they still have a smidgin of internal communication that actually means something?

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:

I'm honestly not sure to take this renewal as just an automatic thing as you've said, or as a result of the ongoing negotiation, if it's the latter its a good thing, the former, well it's nothing thats going to affect us either way, so I don't know about bad thing, more a doesn't really affect anything, though NC isn't as big as the companies we are talking about, so maybe they still have a smidgin of internal communication that actually means something?

Either way it could be good or bad, really.   When facing against the evil Megacorps ... You never can predict their nefarious motives.  

 

Or lack of motives.  

 

 

[Haijinx]

I thought it was just Huge companies.  But when I got to smaller companies I realized the entire rot was pervasive.  Whether it was small companies want to be big ones.  Or that you always have people from the big companies on staff, etc.  

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Either way it could be good or bad, really.   When facing against the evil Megacorps ... You never can predict their nefarious motives.  

 

Or lack of motives.  

 

 

Lack of motives towards city could be both a godsend and a disaster, but most likely nowhere near either of those extremes

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

I thought it was just Huge companies.  But when I got to smaller companies I realized the entire rot was pervasive.  Whether it was small companies want to be big ones.  Or that you always have people from the big companies on staff, etc.  

I went the other way, from small companies, (which I admit while great when I started ended up as you say) to a very big, and 100% guaranteed evil multinational 

[Bodai]

1 hour ago, boggo2300 said:

er you realise HERE is where the current license negotiations are for right? so you plan on leaving if HC get the license they have been working so hard to get?

 

the Cease and Desists are still a huge threat, they can nuke all the decent sized pirate servers (thats what they are, not rogue, they are all operating illegaly) sure then people can roll their own servers, but as soon as they start actually having a player base it's very easy for NC to stomp them as well, the best you could  hope for there is little private servers with maybe 20 or so players.  

 

Best possible result is HC getting a license, second best is NC keep going as they have been and ignoring the servers (though they HAVE contacted some of the server runners, just not telling them to stop fortunately)

 

I'm personally pretty happy with how I think things are progressing, but the NC-SOFT is teh Devilz stuff is only ever gonna make things worse, sure don't trust em, don't support them by buying any of their products (I don't) but vilifying them when we need at least their disinterest is likely to hurt US more than them

 

Sorry about the sermon, but this is one of my fears that we tick off NC-Soft enough that they drop the negotiations like they did with the previous groups

Yes, I realize that.  I would consider that slightly positive to neutral.  I would not leave, this last couple months I have been playing here have been a nice trip down memory lane (for the second time, since I was also on the "other" server).  If they got licensed then we could at least stop stressing over it.  Although if this gets killed, then I am finally done with it actually.

 

I don't know how many ppl were on the "other" server, but certainly there are more ppl here on HC now.  Actually it feels like more than was on live....

 

You really think they are reading these forums?  And even if they did would derive any feeling about it either way?  "yeah, we were going to do a deal, until that rat-bastard Bodai started mouthing off....."  (But if I am wrong I will build a toon with trick-arrow as punishment..... :-| )

 

Basically, I am prepared to win or lose.

 

However, the ONE thing that could happen that would be cool would be to get all of our old account data back.  Which I would expect is at least distantly possible if a licensing deal were made.

 

-Bodai

 

 

[boggo2300]

9 minutes ago, Bodai said:

Yes, I realize that.  I would consider that slightly positive to neutral.  I would not leave, this last couple months I have been playing here have been a nice trip down memory lane (for the second time, since I was also on the "other" server).  If they got licensed then we could at least stop stressing over it.  Although if this gets killed, then I am finally done with it actually.

 

I don't know how many ppl were on the "other" server, but certainly there are more ppl here on HC now.  Actually it feels like more than was on live....

 

You really think they are reading these forums?  And even if they did would derive any feeling about it either way?  "yeah, we were going to do a deal, until that rat-bastard Bodai started mouthing off....."  (But if I am wrong I will build a toon with trick-arrow as punishment..... :-| )

 

Basically, I am prepared to win or lose.

 

However, the ONE thing that could happen that would be cool would be to get all of our old account data back.  Which I would expect is at least distantly possible if a licensing deal were made.

 

-Bodai

 

 

Ok, sorry I've given you the wrong idea, no I don't think they are reading the forums here I'm pretty sure no-one at NC is that interested tbh, my worry is more people getting themselves worked up into a mob complete with torches and pitchforks, a big push by players to "punish" NC soft definitely has potential to derail the current negotiations, so from my perspective the less people venting their hate of NC-Soft the less likely something untoward will happen, I hope that makes more sense

 

BTW we will not get our account data back, that was actually stated to be off the table, and there would be legal issues that no-one, NC-Soft or Homecoming wants to deal with.

 

Hope that clarifies, I'm not trying to start a fight, just trying to make sure one we can't win doesn't start

 

tldr, I'm trying to do what I can to protect what we have

 

(and I agree with you, the servers here are much busier than they were during my play times on live)

Edited January 3, 2020 by boggo2300

[Chris24601]

Since NCSoft never needed the Trademarks to shut the servers running CoH down, I'm going to treat this as neutral-to-good news.

 

Neutral would be that trademarks in the US are use-or-lose with a seven year window (i.e. after seven years of disuse someone else can claim the trademark... for an actual comic example, see Captain Marvel/Shazam). On November 30, 2019 we reached the seven year anniversary of CoH's shutdown when the clock for disuse would have begun so an application to keep the trademark filed just a few days after it would have lapsed could just be a default IP-protection practice from their legal department that happens to occur while negotiations regarding a license for private servers are ongoing.

 

Bolstering this possibility is that the renewal was filed in the US, while Homecoming is based out of Quebec, Further, Canadian trademark law's use-or-lose period is actually 15 years so, presuming NCSoft's trademark was registered in Canada while CoH was live, then the one from 2012 would already still be in force with no need to re-apply for it to use Trademark infringement against Homecoming.

 

If its good news then it means NCSoft is actively securing their IP trademarks in advance of issuing a license to the Homecoming team to make these servers official and legal (just making Homecoming an officially licensed service would also reset the Canadian trademark use clock).

[VileTerror]

Thanks again, 24601.  I knew the Canada (specifically Quebec) thing would have potential significance.   I just didn't realize it would be in the opposite direction of what I was imagining, heh.

[Seigmoraig]

9 hours ago, Bodai said:

Because the fact remains that they pulled the rug out from under us with almost no warning, for no good reason, and with no alternative.  The damage is done.

Glad to see I'm not the only one that has been boycotting them for the past 15 years !

[merrypessimist]

7 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I thought it was just Huge companies.  But when I got to smaller companies I realized the entire rot was pervasive.  Whether it was small companies want to be big ones.  Or that you always have people from the big companies on staff, etc.  

It starts at the business school level.  They all teach the same stupid, often wrong stuff to everyone from the state college program to places like Cambridge and Harvard.  Since the kids assume that the degree they're paying a million dollars for HAS to be true and correct, they apply all those wrong lessons to businesses when they graduate and it all just turns into a giant, stinking, cluster-FUBAR by the time an actual business decision gets made.

[_NOPE_]

44 minutes ago, merrypessimist said:

It starts at the business school level.  They all teach the same stupid, often wrong stuff to everyone from the state college program to places like Cambridge and Harvard.  Since the kids assume that the degree they're paying a million dollars for HAS to be true and correct, they apply all those wrong lessons to businesses when they graduate and it all just turns into a giant, stinking, cluster-FUBAR by the time an actual business decision gets made.

I can confirm this. I spent a year in an MBA program. I left, not because it was hard (I got all As and Bs), but because what I was was being taught was EVIL, plain and simple.

 

Now, I'm a deist, I believe that whatever Creator there was created this universe with a set of rules, like a watchmaker making a watch, wound it up and let it go... so I don't really believe in a Judgement that decides what happens to you after you die (if in fact ANYTHING happens to you after you die). For all I know, all that we have is right here and right now. That we know for sure.

 

And knowing that, my personal morality is based all around how you treat other people. Do you make things better for other people, or do you make things worse for them? And in the MBA courses I took - that was NOT a part of the equation. It was a cold, hard, calculation of what's best to create and maintain maximal profitability. People were tools, pawns, or in their words "assets" to be utilized, just as a building or piece of machinery is utilized. When I realized that THAT is what they were teaching, that's when I decided to leave the program, because I CANNOT do that. I can't dehumanize others and see them as assets, and make decisions based on their perceived worth. I'm halfway between a Utilitarian and a Kantian, but I'm definitely NOT a pure Utilitarian. Each person has intrinsic and inherent value.

 

The fact that they are and have been teaching GENERATIONS of MBA students this uncaring, unfeeling, cold calculation and evaluation of other human beings... well, that's the closest thing to pure EVIL that I've ever myself seen in this world.

 

The decision to pull the plug on City of Heroes was EXACTLY that thought process. It was a decision for the pure purpose of profit. They did NOT consider the joy that they were taking, the communities they would be destroying, and the lives (specifically the lives of Paragon Studios employees), that they would be changing - forever. They just cared that City of Heroes wasn't making ENOUGH money, and that they could move those financial assets elsewhere and make MORE profits.

 

That thought sickens me.

Edited January 3, 2020 by The Philotic Knight

[ZacKing]

8 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

The decision to pull the plug on City of Heroes was EXACTLY that thought process. It was a decision for the pure purpose of profit. They did NOT consider the joy that they were taking, the communities they would be destroying, and the lives (specifically the lives of Paragon Studios employees), that they would be changing - forever. They just cared that City of Heroes wasn't making ENOUGH money, and that they could move those financial assets elsewhere and make MORE profits.

I get the point and I'm with you that what NCSoft did was crap, but that's just life.  can't blame them for wanting to make their properties profitable.  They shouldn't operate losses just to make everyone happy.  keep doing that and eventually there is no more business and all the employees get let go.  they have families too.

[_NOPE_]

5 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

I get the point and I'm with you that what NCSoft did was crap, but that's just life.  can't blame them for wanting to make their properties profitable.  They shouldn't operate losses just to make everyone happy.  keep doing that and eventually there is no more business and all the employees get let go.  they have families too.

That's the thing, all indicators suggest that CoH WAS still profitable. It just wasn't AS profitable as their other ventures, so they decided to move assets around to INCREASE profitability. Not, to cut a loss, because CoH wasn't a loss.

 

Just one reference: https://www.mmorpg.com/city-of-heroes/general-articles/profitable-or-not-1000007015

 

[jubakumbi]

Pattern seeking creatures always want to think individual events they cannot explain are immendiately part of a larger, more mysterious pattern.

When they cannot, they will make stuff up...nothing new.

[VileTerror]

The old difference between sustainable business, and growth-as-the-only-path business.  The latter makes more money (until it collapses), while the former is something which the games industry is especially bad at.

Saying "that's life" feels particularly defeatist about it.  Life is change; so let's work together to make that change positive by calling out evil when we see it, and striving to make tangible solutions.  Never give up.  Never surrender.

[_NOPE_]

21 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

The old difference between sustainable business, and growth-as-the-only-path business.  The latter makes more money (until it collapses)

I call that the Jenga effect, or the "Fallacy of Perpetual Growth". I've been harping on that since 2014: http://philotix.altervista.org/2014/09/business/

 

[quixoteprog]

42 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

That's the thing, all indicators suggest that CoH WAS still profitable. It just wasn't AS profitable as their other ventures, so they decided to move assets around to INCREASE profitability. Not, to cut a loss, because CoH wasn't a loss.

 

Just one reference: https://www.mmorpg.com/city-of-heroes/general-articles/profitable-or-not-1000007015

 

The thing is NCSoft is a publicly traded company. The leadership of the company is legally bound to try and make the most money they can to return as much value to their share holders as they possibly can. When you pass up the chance to make more money, by developing a new game, in order to keep an old game running, you are derelict in that duty. It may sound callous, but it is just the way corporations are. We create them and invest our money in them in order to make money.

 

There was, I am sure, nothing personal in their decision to shut down the game in the first place. As much as it may have hurt the people emotionally invested in the community that they had built it was a decision made out of a legal obligation.

 

If they do sign a deal with Homecoming to run the game as a non-profit it will still only be done because by their own calculations the good will generated will make them money in some way.

[_NOPE_]

2 minutes ago, quixoteprog said:

It may sound callous, but it is just the way corporations are. We create them and invest our money in them in order to make money.

 

There was, I am sure, nothing personal in their decision to shut down the game in the first place. As much as it may have hurt the people emotionally invested in the community that they had built it was a decision made out of a legal obligation.

That's exactly the problem - it's callous, it's "not personal"... it's inhuman. This is one of the reasons why I preach against the concept of "limited liability", because it lets corporations get away with doing nasty things because the people making the decisions are divorced from the effects of those decisions. Whereas if it's a sole proprietorship or partnership, those that make the decisions are PERSONALLY responsible for the results of those actions. It forces the companies to "remain human", for the lack of a better term. The further we get away from that, the easier it is for companies to make bad choices that hurt people. I personally think that the very concept of limited liability should be stricken from the books. NOBODY should be able to make a decision and then not have to be personally responsible for the results of that decision. If we did that, then better decisions would be made, for the betterment of all.