Fade and Farsight Should Not Benefit from External Buffs

[Galaxy Brain]

It's also not the only power in Time. The set has offense, defense, heals, control, all in one that then also has the ability to maintain such a high team wide boost. Playing that can sour the fun of other support sets that dont match up to the power or versatility. 

 

Yes, those ones should be buffed but by how much? Buffing them in turn would be "useless" since we are all godlike from IOs anyways though

[Infinitum]

42 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

There are more perspectives than that.

 

Just because you build for soft cap one way doesn't mean everyone builds for soft cap the same way.  For instance, if I'm even bothering getting a non-defense armor character to softcap, I build for 35% and make sure to have a handful of purple inspirations.  1 small purple = softcap and some change.

 

As for ruining the fun, you people have already done that.  I mean, okay, we have the capacity to softcap practically every character and give them ridiculous recharge and good to broken damage but should we do it?  And if we don't do it every time, do we just point to those exploiting the system and say "everybody's doing it!"?  You can't go north and south at the same time.

You people?   lol. Go away with that nonsense.  I didn't make the game or develop it.

 

I just play it and enjoy it because each moment could be our last on here.

 

Nitpicking and griping because the game is too fast or too easy is dumb, if it were - just use SOs or DOs for that matter and find other people that do.  Otherwise it's not an issue on a resurrected game that most of us love just to be in since its back.  I want to be OP on every character I build because this is my second and perhaps limited chance to enjoy this game.

 

Otherwise quit griping about how 99% of us enjoy playing.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It's also not the only power in Time. The set has offense, defense, heals, control, all in one that then also has the ability to maintain such a high team wide boost. Playing that can sour the fun of other support sets that dont match up to the power or versatility. 

 

Yes, those ones should be buffed but by how much? Buffing them in turn would be "useless" since we are all godlike from IOs anyways though

If we are honest it doest sour anyone's fun. 

 

That's on the person if it does. 

 

COH is the friendliest community even in real life terms and honestly even when a player sucks out loud I've never seen anything but support for them.

 

Most people play what they want and enjoy doing it not caring what the numbers are.

[Leogunner]

5 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You people?   lol. Go away with that nonsense.  I didn't make the game or develop it.

 

I just play it and enjoy it because each moment could be our last on here.

 

Nitpicking and griping because the game is too fast or too easy is dumb, if it were - just use SOs or DOs for that matter and find other people that do.  Otherwise it's not an issue on a resurrected game that most of us love just to be in since its back.  I want to be OP on every character I build because this is my second and perhaps limited chance to enjoy this game.

 

Otherwise quit griping about how 99% of us enjoy playing.

Yes, you people.  You people that min/max the game and then use that as an excuse to introduce more aspects to min/max.  You people that jump to conclusions that everyone likes to play your way.  And you people that brush aside an argument when you can't figure out a rebuttal. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Leogunner

[Galaxy Brain]

Not other people's, but the person's. I personally have a hard time trying certain sets out because I know they are not good and wouldnt be as fun as a better set.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

Yes, you people.  You people that min/max the game and then use that as an excuse to introduce more aspects to min/max.  You people that jump to conclusions that everyone likes to play your way.  And you people that don't brush aside an argument when you can't figure out a rebuttal. 

Yeah you are missing the point and attributing things to me that's not true.

 

Good luck being a jerk like this going forward but you won't to get anywhere with me doing that.

[Leogunner]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

If we are honest it doest sour anyone's fun. 

 

That's on the person if it does. 

 

COH is the friendliest community even in real life terms and honestly even when a player sucks out loud I've never seen anything but support for them.

 

Most people play what they want and enjoy doing it not caring what the numbers are.

No one said it did sour everyone's fun but you did say it never comes up that it sours someone's fun.

 

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Not other people's, but the person's. I personally have a hard time trying certain sets out because I know they are not good and wouldnt be as fun as a better set.

Then don't play it.  Nowhere does it say you have to play everything.

 

Some people have no issues playing sets that seem broken in a bad way and have fun doing it.

[Seroster01]

51 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

As for ruining the fun, you people have already done that.  I mean, okay, we have the capacity to softcap practically every character and give them ridiculous recharge and good to broken damage but should we do it?

Um, yes? This whole paradigm is the exact reason that CoH is my favorite MMO of all time. I liked it well enough before IOs, but it turned into my gaming equivalent of Cocaine after the system's introduction. I get that different folks enjoy different parts of any given game, but this statement seems kinda snooty in a "Stop having fun guys!" manner...

[Infinitum]

Just now, Leogunner said:

No one said it did sour everyone's fun but you did say it never comes up that it sours someone's fun.

 

Because it doesn't honestly. 

 

It can only do that if you are looking at another sets numbers.

 

A lot of it boils down to preference and that's not or ever has been a measuring stick.

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Yeah you are missing the point and attributing things to me that's not true.

 

Good luck being a jerk like this going forward but you won't to get anywhere with me doing that.

Stop taking things personally.  Just because I say *you* and also quote you, doesn't mean every you is you. If you think I'm attributing something to you, then argue that.

 

And I will take that luck.  I may not min/max in the game, but I'll take what I can get on the forums.

 

As for whether or not I get anywhere with you doing that, that purely depends on the veracity of your posts.

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, Seroster01 said:

Um, yes? This whole paradigm is the exact reason that CoH is my favorite MMO of all time. I liked it well enough before IOs, but it turned into my gaming equivalent of Cocaine after the system's introduction. I get that different folks enjoy different parts of any given game, but this statement seems kinda snooty in a "Stop having fun guys!" manner...

Then read the sentence after the part you quoted.  It goes together to make that point.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

Stop taking things personally.  Just because I say *you* and also quote you, doesn't mean every you is you. If you think I'm attributing something to you, then argue that.

 

And I will take that luck.  I may not min/max in the game, but I'll take what I can get on the forums.

 

As for whether or not I get anywhere with you doing that, that purely depends on the veracity of your posts.

Then stop making it personal.

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Because it doesn't honestly. 

 

It can only do that if you are looking at another sets numbers.

 

A lot of it boils down to preference and that's not or ever has been a measuring stick.

@Galaxy Brain JUST made and example of himself of affecting his fun.

 

I guess if you'd rather armchair psychologist his means of deriving fun from a game, you can brush it aside, but I prefer not assuming stuff with absolute statements.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

@Galaxy Brain JUST made and example of himself of affecting his fun.

 

I guess if you'd rather armchair psychologist his means of deriving fun from a game, you can brush it aside, but I prefer not assuming stuff with absolute statements.

Not everyone will love every single set or power available.

 

That's a measure that will never be attained.

 

If that ruins the game for someone that's more on the person than the game.

 

I hate dual pistols and I hate titan weapons.

 

Guess what I don't play.

 

Guess what I still enjoy.

 

I know a lot of people that love both.

 

I know a lot of people that love the borked energy melee set. I can't talk them out of it.

 

How would you even define whats fun or not?

 

It's all subjective.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Infinitum

[Leogunner]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Then stop making it personal.

I'm not.  Someone just hinted at possibly calling me snooty but since I'm not or took it personally, I clarified.

 

If I'm taking this personally, then what are you doing?  You just took the one portion from a statement (you people) and whatever other baggage you may have with it and dumped it on me as if I'm calling you out.  Unless, of course, the attributes I describe actually describe yourself.  So even if that statement was directed at @Infinitum, saying you ruin the fun, do you honestly care?  Would you care that you ruin my definition of fun?  I know you don't.  And I'm fine with that.  But that's not what I said but that's what you read.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

I'm not.  Someone just hinted at possibly calling me snooty but since I'm not or took it personally, I clarified.

 

If I'm taking this personally, then what are you doing?  You just took the one portion from a statement (you people) and whatever other baggage you may have with it and dumped it on me as if I'm calling you out.  Unless, of course, the attributes I describe actually describe yourself.  So even if that statement was directed at @Infinitum, saying you ruin the fun, do you honestly care?  Would you care that you ruin my definition of fun?  I know you don't.  And I'm fine with that.  But that's not what I said but that's what you read.

That was after your response,  Go back re read your response.

 

Once you threw out the you people line what effect did you honestly think that would have?

 

You could have said the exact same thing by saying the damage is already done without pointing fingers and it would have been a lot less inflammatory.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Infinitum

[Leogunner]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Not everyone will love every single set or power available.

 

That's a measure that will never be attained.

 

If that ruins the game for someone that's more on the person than the game.

 

I hate dual pistols and I hate titan weapons.

 

Guess what I don't play.

 

Guess what I still enjoy.

 

I know a lot of people that love both.

 

I know a lot of people that love the borked energy melee set. I can't talk them out of it.

 

How would you even define whats fun or not?

 

It's all subjective.

I don't think that was the point.  It was that he might want to play a character with a certain concept but the min/max in him knows it may perform much worse than an alternative that doesn't fit his character or they just pick the OP set regardless of not actually wanting to play the same set (again).  You'd have to pick @Galaxy Brain's brain to get why he gets diminished enjoyment.  I don't know him.

 

 

[Leogunner]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

Go back re read your response.

 

Once you threw out the you people line what effect did you honestly think that would have?

 

You could have said the exact same thing by saying the damage is already done without pointing fingers and it would have been a lot less inflammatory.

Like I said, you have baggage with a phrase.  If the thing I described is you, I say again, do you honestly care if you ruin my fun?

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

I don't think that was the point.  It was that he might want to play a character with a certain concept but the min/max in him knows it may perform much worse than an alternative that doesn't fit his character or they just pick the OP set regardless of not actually wanting to play the same set (again).  You'd have to pick @Galaxy Brain's brain to get why he gets diminished enjoyment.  I don't know him.

 

 

I wouldn't presume to read his mind, but any set can be made to work well, maybe not as well as others but that won't get you kicked off any teams I've been on.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Leogunner said:

Like I said, you have baggage with a phrase.  If the thing I described is you, I say again, do you honestly care if you ruin my fun?

You used the phrase.  You know what the intent of the phase is and it was responding to me.  Don't hide behind your intent.  Thats cowardly.

 

There's only one way to read that because you were responding to me.

 

As for your fun, define it for me.  Your fun may not be worth risking 90 % of the game that enjoys it as is, but again that's subjective.

 

How do you define or quantify that?

[Leogunner]

Just now, Infinitum said:

I wouldn't presume to read his mind, but any set can be made to work well, maybe not as well as others but that won't get you kicked off any teams I've been on.

But it could make you redundant, which I think was the point:

 

• FF defender? We got Farsight and IOs
• Don't nerf Farsight/Fade, we have IO defense cap anyway. It's no big deal
• We play to be powerful, not balanced, so no point starting here even it it sounds reasonable
• The fun of the many over the fun of the few despite having no measured census of the many's actual count

The arguments just reek of redundancy to try to explain away a reasoned post.  The same old arguments of double-downing on OPness.

[Redlynne]

30 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

also has the ability to maintain such a high team wide boost.

Under IDEAL™ conditions.

 

Spoiler alert ... those IDEAL™ conditions may have absolutely no problem "working just fine" on a spreadsheet, yet wind up being remarkably hard to execute RELIABLY in practice.  It's kind of like how an entire team that is buffed with Regeneration Aura and Recovery Aura by an Empath can start facerolling remarkably effectively ... on paper ... but in actual gameplay, getting everyone to huddle up for the periodic buffing can wind up being more than a bit like herding cats.  It also doesn't help that in order to buff the team they need to cooperate in order to receive the buff(s) ... and what is in notoriously short supply in pick up groups?  Duh ... cooperation and TEAMWORK!

 

My point being that the "spreadsheet theoretical maximum performance" profile often winds up describing IDEAL™ conditions that rarely work out to be true in actual gameplay.  It may work fine in THEORY but in actual practice the throughput efficiency will tend to be lower than what the spreadsheet answer will tell you, simply because there are other factors at work disrupting any attempt at getting to that theoretical "perfect" outcome.  Anything from timing to attention span/situational awareness to just simple configuration/positioning during combat can influence the outcomes of team buffs, particularly team buffs that are long duration Clicks in which you need your team to "bottleneck" together at regular intervals in order to receive the buffing.

 

In other words, don't let the "perfect scenario" be the enemy of how things ACTUALLY work out in actual gameplay.

Just because I theoretically CAN buff everyone on a team doesn't mean that everyone on that team will cooperate in such a way as to ALLOW me to buff them on MY schedule every single time.

 

There are times when redundancy is useful ... and times when it isn't.

Learn to know when is which.

[Seroster01]

49 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Then read the sentence after the part you quoted.  It goes together to make that point.

Do you mean "And if we don't do it every time, do we just point to those exploiting the system and say "everybody's doing it!"?" Cause I don't see how that changes the intent in any way. 

 

My parsing of that statement takes it as saying "We can't have min-maxers because then EVERYONE has to min-max!" This isn't true, as this game got along just fine before IOs, and I'd imagine that the average player could join most Homecoming groups with a pure SO build without anyone else noticing and/or caring. Now, I can understand that people can dislike the current systems because in the end almost no one wants to do this. Having crazy OP characters is a lot of fun for most of the player base & the ones who aren't looking for that feel obligated to do it so that they don't drag down the team. I can empathize with this causing a bit of frustration for those who don't want it, though obviously I don't agree with it. My actual issue with that line & the post in general is that calling this type of play style "exploiting the system" sounds dismissive or demeaning towards those who enjoy said system (which seems to be a majority of the playerbase). IOs were created by the developers, seem to have been implemented for this exact purpose, and the resulting min-max shenanigans are one of the biggest selling points in the game to a lot of players. 

 

To me, behaving as if this has "ruined the game", when it's one of the foundational pieces of CoH at this point & has been for years, reeks of old-school MMO Elitism; "If it isn't hard it isn't fun!" & "If you don't enjoy the game the same way I do you're doing it wrong!" are staples of that mindset, and I can't parse anything from that paragraph that seems to be expressing anything other than those ideas.

 

Perhaps thay wasn't the intent, but if so it was expressed poorly IMO.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Seroster01
Typos & phrasing.

[Leogunner]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You used the phrase.  You know what the intent of the phase is and it was responding to me.  Don't hide behind your intent.  Thats cowardly.

 

There's only one way to read that because you were responding to me.

 

As for your fun, define it for me.  Your fun may not be worth risking 90 % of the game that enjoys it as is, but again that's subjective.

 

How do you define or quantify that?

See, you're flinging insults now.  All I said is you guys min/max which ruins the fun.  Do you not min/max?  You said you did.  You're calling me cowardly.  What proof do you have that I'm hiding behind intent?  I said what I said because I felt like saying it at the time.  If you want to censor me, just report the post.

 

And like I said before, not every *you* is you even if I quoted your post.  Had I stated something that was opposite of your post but said "you people", would you really assume I'm focusing the statement on you?  At the very least, you could have asked for clarification.  Even though you didn't ask, I'll clarify that quote for you:

 

"As for ruining the fun, you people have already done that.  I mean, okay, we have the capacity to softcap practically every character and give them ridiculous recharge and good to broken damage but should we do it?  And if we don't do it every time, do we just point to those exploiting the system and say "everybody's doing it!"?  You can't go north and south at the same time."

 

When read fully, the accusation is pointed at the OP min/max levels vs the difficulty of the game.  I say "you people" with regards to those that actually make it their goal to min/max practically all their builds but also garner the same mentality in new players and even old players who want to participate in certain content.  It's not directed at people who have a couple min/maxed characters (because I have some too), but at the mentality that min/maxing is the game.  Because a min/maxed character can practically solo the game.  It makes it unfun for the other 7 guys not contributing much.

 

If you really want to go on a tirade about saying "you people" just because I accuse you of ruining the fun, then have at it.  I think you're just trying to bait me into accusing you directly because that's probably breaking some forum guideline.  That you'd even have the wherewithal to complain about a benign accusation as that is comical.  For frick's sake, stay on topic lol