"Multi Opponent Combat" Stat, or, How to Handle Players With Runaway Survivability

[Leogunner]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

@Leogunner Makes me wanna ask.. so should folks not playing with IOs get higher rewards thus adding incentive for playing a more challenging.. okay I'm just joking but there could be something there.

What people choose to do is outside of my power. Frankly, I think the US should have manditory conscription into the military for all males over 18 for a min of 2 years (like South Korea) because frankly, males have become f'ing doormats rather than individuals that can protect anyone..but what I think doesn't hold any power in these circumstances so you asking that is (in my perspective) asking if things should be balanced toward teams or groups. Group content should be for groups. Saying anything beyond that is like saying things should be imbalanced. So basically you want everthing to be unbalanced. 

 

If you want a more unbiased answer, ask a less biased question. 

 

As for diminishing returns, that's not a speed bump. That's literally the devs stopping you from exploiting the content for easy gains before they catch on themselves. I mean, I bet if Chinese gold farmers somehow manages to get a foothold here, you wouldn't be against finding means to curb them. 

 

 

[oedipus_tex]

Response to no one in particular. In the current system, if a player exceeds 16 enemies, any remaining enemies either do nothing or attack someone else. I think some of the predictions that a system like this would result in the death of tanking are far fetched. You can't tank more than 16 enemies currently. It would mean that a tank would have to be proactive about deciding when to aggro the next group, because enough enemies could possibly eventually be dangerous.

 

As far as this resulting in nukes being the only solution, that depends a lot on the nature of the enemies. If there are a lot of minions, sure. If it's a swarm of bosses like are featured in the ITF or some of the trials, that's not as effective. 

 

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Leogunner said:

I'm not missing the point. What you just said merely dismissed someone's viewpoint and restated what you just said. Why not ask if intentionally nerfing yourself makes you want to play and replay content rather than make assumptions based on trying to trump a forum argument. 

 

I'm telling you right now, if I'm playing for difficulty and I make a build to intentionally nerf myself, at best, I'd participate just to prove something and never again. 

 

Have you looked into some of the challenge Final Fantasy no save runs that can push past 12hours of straight gameplay? I doubt they do that on a weekly basis for fun lol

The only final fantasy I know about is the words you are attempting to attribute to what my point is here.

 

I didn't dismiss anyone.  Nobody is forcing anyone to OP everything they play.  Last I checked SOs are readily available.  Use them if you want a challenge, or don't.  It really doesn't matter but to complain that there is no challenge when you are downing the megawatt sugar slushy of set bonuses and incarnate powers while you crush the same council radio mission over and over again isn't a justified position.

 

There are challenges to test incarnate OP builds but don't expect the pre incarnate stuff to give your OP build a headache.

[Galaxy Brain]

5 hours ago, Infinitum said:

It's not really a balance issue though.

 

Either way, my point is you can incarnate and overslot everything like I do - I have 17 now and working on 6 more at the moment.  I like being OP.  There's nothing wrong with that.

 

Or you can slot for challenge and grind.

 

Either avenue is available right now providing for a very diverse and versatile game which is a good thing for a resurrected game 12 years removed.

 

All this would be interesting as add on difficulty options though.

 

I would say it is a point of balance if the power level of the average player has drastically shifted. That means as a whole the content designed for SO's has become easier than intended if the vast majority of players (emphasis on if this is vast, ie more than 70%)  are using IO's in any capacity, which past lvl 25 are flat out better than SO's

[Infinitum]

Just now, Galaxy Brain said:

 

I would say it is a point of balance if the power level of the average player has drastically shifted. That means as a whole the content designed for SO's has become easier than intended if the vast majority of players (emphasis on if this is vast, ie more than 70%)  are using IO's in any capacity, which past lvl 25 are flat out better than SO's

Yeah, I see what you are saying there and agree, but IO Set bonus type builds aren't built for normal content.

 

From my own experience you either bypass normal content to 50+ altogether or you play the early content up for the experience.

 

When I play the content up I use common IOs and it's still a challenge.

 

Most people don't incarnate up for the normal gameplay though, it's for the endgame content like Itrials and incarnate missions which still pose a challenge.

 

So no, level up content isn't a challenge for OP builds, but it's not supposed to be either.

[Leogunner]

23 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

The only final fantasy I know about is the words you are attempting to attribute to what my point is here.

 

I didn't dismiss anyone.  Nobody is forcing anyone to OP everything they play.  Last I checked SOs are readily available.  Use them if you want a challenge, or don't.  It really doesn't matter but to complain that there is no challenge when you are downing the megawatt sugar slushy of set bonuses and incarnate powers while you crush the same council radio mission over and over again isn't a justified position.

 

There are challenges to test incarnate OP builds but don't expect the pre incarnate stuff to give your OP build a headache.

Now you use ignorance to deflect. That's fine. I guess if you want to repeat the "no one is forcing you to OP" argument (BTW, you don't need to OP your character to face roll this game. Basic IOs are cost efficient, less hassle and more effective. Shilling SOs is more like telling players to throw their inf away than to tell them to its the challenge path) them I'll say no one is forcing you to participate in this thread. If you're going to dismiss an argument, don't deny it. Just make a better argument. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Leogunner

[Infinitum]

2 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Now you use ignorance to deflect. That's fine. I guess if you want to repeat the "no one is forcing you to OP" argument (BTW, you don't need to OP your character to face roll this game. Basic IOs are cost efficient, less hassle and more effective. Shilling IOs is more like telling players to throw their inf away than to tell them to its the challenge path) them I'll say no one is forcing you to participate in this thread. If you're going to dismiss an argument, don't deny it. Just make a better argument. 

Still... Missing the point.  But that's ok.  Especially if you want to keep doing it.

 

Absolutely not what I'm saying but keep playing your little game of attributing things to what people aren't really saying on here.  You do it to nearly everyone you disagree with.

 

News flash, that doesn't win the argument for you.

[siolfir]

 

[boggo2300]

I do like this as a general concept, however I think it's going to be tricky to implement without hurting some peoples playstye, and honestly I have no helpful suggestions, I just want to say I hope people keep hashing this out to make it work, because I think it has the potential to add a lot to end-game

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

9 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

So you're saying it's not because it's a gigantic, mostly empty space that really isn't readily navigable without a flight power because all the gravity wells are borked?
And even with the requisite flight power, navigation is painfully slow?

By your reasoning, such players would avoid Incarnate content as well.
Yet we really don't see that happening...

You know this is a great question to open up on. What your basically saying is well its just too annoying to bother with. I see that same alternate word/phrase sued in game all the time when any of the more challenging groups come up. Oh i hate carnies their end drain on deaht is so annoying, Oh not arachnos they are so annoying with all there tricks, Oh being blind is such an irritation lets just avoid them and run council mishes. Oh not Crey i hate all their buffing and debuffing and that one type of PP that gets original MoG and is so hard to finish off because I cant be bothered to save an alpha strike for when they are at 25% health.

 

Basically in game, when people say something annoys them about a given faction what they really mean is they dont like the challenge such  and such faction or content comes with inherently. You know back in the old days of live, for ATs like scrappers it was seen as a right of passage to go do a solo circle of the storm palace.  Partly because it was also an endless mob fest farm in the pre AE era. The challenge of the mobs be damned. Then came AE and easy farming with the weakest foes and the deck stacked in the players favor as much as possible. The sheer popularity of such farming shows just how little challenge the majority of players really want to engage in.

[Galaxy Brain]

9 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

The sheer popularity of such farming shows just how little challenge the majority of players really want to engage in.

Not so much that, as much as it is just so overwhelmingly more rewarding to do that stuff. You get the same value from council as malta...  so why deal with malta?

 

Running the storm palace was a challenge but also let you get tons of rewards for said challenge.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

5 hours ago, Leogunner said:

What people choose to do is outside of my power. Frankly, I think the US should have manditory conscription into the military for all males over 18 for a min of 2 years (like South Korea) because frankly, males have become f'ing doormats rather than individuals that can protect anyone..but what I think doesn't hold any power in these circumstances so you asking that is (in my perspective) asking if things should be balanced toward teams or groups. Group content should be for groups. Saying anything beyond that is like saying things should be imbalanced. So basically you want everthing to be unbalanced. 

 

If you want a more unbiased answer, ask a less biased question. 

 

As for diminishing returns, that's not a speed bump. That's literally the devs stopping you from exploiting the content for easy gains before they catch on themselves. I mean, I bet if Chinese gold farmers somehow manages to get a foothold here, you wouldn't be against finding means to curb them. 

 

 

Well this explains enough about you as a person taht I think Ill just put you on ignore. This aint rome with service required for citizenship and a warlord turned emperor.  And its currently so fast and easy to earn tons of inf gold farmers wont bother. Those operations prefer to target games with high populations of obvious whales. Path of Exiles is very popular for farming operations because its barely even seen as something to curb, and people with money are obvious because of the cash value associated with cosmetics there.

 

Even on live coh barely had a active gold farming scene.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Not so much that, as much as it is just so overwhelmingly more rewarding to do that stuff. You get the same value from council as malta...  so why deal with malta?

Well personally I dont go after malta because none of my characters origin concepts connect to malta while characters like my namesake in game have a long history with the nazi and the nictus so council are a personal enemy. But so are the nicti, nemesis, the circle of thorns, the skulls and the hellions.

 

Why do i face any given content? Well it varies on my mood, if Im trying to build inf I favor TFs to liquidate the merits because Im not much of one for farming. If I have a guy hit 50 I tend to like to stress the build so I favor going out to the shard typically, as packs of wisps and the like tend to be more stress on a build then most other group types.

 

And once Ive reached a point on the build taht little real challenge exists I then focus on the most challenging foe types because I get a wicked pleasure from mass murdering foe types most seem to fear facing. I basically have 3 main moods. RP mode where I build groups to run content connected with my character concept. Earn mode, which often means TFs or soloing story arcs moving swiftly and with purpose, this is common when Im playing a stalker, and then Show off mode where I build teams often of lowbies while running radios, but picking the group types most hate, to basically be the one man hero with a bunch of side kicks so I both get the pleasure of helping those who cant do what I can, while also getting to revel in my characters powers. Funny enough actual character progression IE leveling is rarely a motivation in and of itself for me. I infact always put more play time in a day on a completed character then on leveling new alts.

 

For me the game is its most fun to play when progression for a character is a thing of the past. I like being able to just enjoy the play without leveling up, having to shop for IO sets etc. I just want to play the content with a complete character. Hence why some months back i actually did seriously suggest them adding auto 50 option to P2W.  I prefer running content exemped then at level to be sure as well.

[Leogunner]

46 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Well this explains enough about you as a person taht I think Ill just put you on ignore. This aint rome with service required for citizenship and a warlord turned emperor.  And its currently so fast and easy to earn tons of inf gold farmers wont bother. Those operations prefer to target games with high populations of obvious whales. Path of Exiles is very popular for farming operations because its barely even seen as something to curb, and people with money are obvious because of the cash value associated with cosmetics there.

 

Even on live coh barely had a active gold farming scene.

See ya. Good to know you just ignore people with different opinions than yours. 

[Haijinx]

Leo can be really blunt.  And often disagrees with me.  Or vice versa.  But I find his opinions valuable.  

 

==========

 

This particular topic is a difficult one, as after all, the main reason the game is so easy is the OP IO builds we like to create.

 

Which are part of the fun of the game ..

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

You know this is a great question to open up on. What your basically saying is well its just too annoying to bother with. I see that same alternate word/phrase sued in game all the time when any of the more challenging groups come up.

Except I'm not talking about an enemy group.

I'm talking the ZONE.

And you go on to talk about "challenge".

What, particularly, is "challenging" about taking 20 minutes to fly halfway across a zone to hit a wormhole than taking another 20 minutes to fly halfway across another part of the zone?

 

[boggo2300]

3 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Except I'm not talking about an enemy group.

I'm talking the ZONE.

And you go on to talk about "challenge".

What, particularly, is "challenging" about taking 20 minutes to fly halfway across a zone to hit a wormhole than taking another 20 minutes to fly halfway across another part of the zone?

 

Patience? it's a virtue so maybe it counts as a challenge?

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

Patience? it's a virtue so maybe it counts as a challenge?

Anyone remember taking a ship in Everquest 1?  

 

 

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

Anyone remember taking a ship in Everquest 1?  

 

 

never played it, but I do remember crossing the continent on foot in UO

[Haijinx]

Just now, boggo2300 said:

never played it, but I do remember crossing the continent on foot in UO

You had to actually get on the ship, which traveled between ports Model Train Set style in 1:1 time.   At sailing ship speed.

 

When you zoned you had to run to stay on the ship or the lag would knock you off.  

 

If your dialup hiccuped .. well..

 

It felt like it took hours.  Maybe it did take hours.  

 

Not as bad as Ultima though, since at least you didn't have to load everyone's player shops that polluted the entire landscape. 

[boggo2300]

18 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

You had to actually get on the ship, which traveled between ports Model Train Set style in 1:1 time.   At sailing ship speed.

 

When you zoned you had to run to stay on the ship or the lag would knock you off.  

 

If your dialup hiccuped .. well..

 

It felt like it took hours.  Maybe it did take hours.  

 

Not as bad as Ultima though, since at least you didn't have to load everyone's player shops that polluted the entire landscape. 

lol

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, boggo2300 said:

Patience? it's a virtue so maybe it counts as a challenge?

May I point to:

Mission Teleporter
Base Teleporter
Pocket D VIP Pass
Ouroboros Portal
LFG Teleporter
The Paragon Rail Station Rework
Assemble The Team
Team Transport

About the only thing the game DOESN'T let us do is MAPMOVE with a full coordinate system input.

My POINT, however, is that my complaint about the Shadow Shard have to do with the CONSTRUCTION of the Shadow Shard, rather than the enemies occupying it.
Much as someone else might try to blame the enemy groups represented there.

Several devs on Live generally agreed that the Shard zones, while visually interesting and interesting from a point of lore, represented a failure or a misstep in zone construction.

[boggo2300]

2 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

May I point to:

Mission Teleporter
Base Teleporter
Pocket D VIP Pass
Ouroboros Portal
LFG Teleporter
The Paragon Rail Station Rework
Assemble The Team
Team Transport

About the only thing the game DOESN'T let us do is MAPMOVE with a full coordinate system input.

My POINT, however, is that my complaint about the Shadow Shard have to do with the CONSTRUCTION of the Shadow Shard, rather than the enemies occupying it.
Much as someone else might try to blame the enemy groups represented there.

Several devs on Live generally agreed that the Shard zones, while visually interesting and interesting from a point of lore, represented a failure or a misstep in zone construction.

😞 I was only making a joke to try and lighten the mood

 

😄

[Hyperstrike]

54 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:

😞 I was only making a joke to try and lighten the mood

 

😄

Fair enough.

Text is sometimes a terrible medium for conveying nuance like humor.

[boggo2300]

1 minute ago, Hyperstrike said:

Fair enough.

Text is sometimes a terrible medium for conveying nuance like humor.

If I'm honest I do now as I always have and spend as little time as possible in any of the shard zones