Quick fix for Kheldian ATs

[Wavicle]

Moved the human form taunt aura to the S/L shield, but still requires the tanking stance to be on to be active.  This way the taunt aura is not available at level 1 though the rest of the effects of the tanking stance for the human form are.

Edited January 26, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[Wavicle]

Probably the tank stance should NOT be able to be used as a Break Free, to reserve that feature for the Dwarf Form.

[Wavicle]

Extended range of Dwarf form Taunt powers when in tank stance.

[Wavicle]

I think any additional buff I haven't already outlined would be specific to the Peacebringer's damage dealing ability, but that might be more than is necessary.

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, no thanks on the inherent toggle.

[Wavicle]

An alternative would be to bake the effects from the toggle directly into the dwarf form, increase the single target damage of the nova form, and make the inherent toggle apply only to the human form.

 

I believe that any buff needs to include both making the dwarf a better tank and giving the human form the ability to tank at least a little bit.

[SwitchFade]

While it may be desirable to increase the capability of the dwarf form to manage aggro, what exactly are you looking for from the AT? It seems as though we're just asking for more tankmagery, when my Warshade can already tri-form roflestomp things.

 

Human form is very "tough" if you focus on it. There isn't a need to make it tougher inherently (very possible a hesitant maybe mez protection, but the AT was designed for form swapping and thus dwarf IS your protection), unlessss you're just wanting all three forms to be maxed in tandem, which is unacceptable. The AT was never meant to allow all forms to max out concurrently, there was always a path to choose, by design. This is how and why many of us love it. Built properly, they are very powerful.

 

Now, could they use slight adjustment? Sure, but what the majority of these proposals cover is turning the AT into something it is not.

 

Better aggro management in dwarf? sure, but probably not as solid as a tank. (Nearly there currently)

 

Suppressed toggles that reactivate on human? Sure, great QoL (even though it's half way pointless, because if you slot up forms to be powerful, human is basically utility only)

 

More slots built into forms by default, violating 67? Hmmm, let's be careful here and really think (as it is my mf'n ws is a wrecking ball)

 

Revised inherent to be more synergistic with teams? No complaints, for utility

 

Tone down KB on PB? Sure, but be careful. Maybe KU?

 

Damage cap up 100% hmmm, getting iffy, maybe start at 50%

 

Beyond this, I'd have to wager it's going to be problematic and I would solidly jranger. Even the items listed should be tested 1 at a time and in synergy. Slowly.

[Call Me Awesome]

I agree wholeheartedly with the toggle suppression instead of deactivation, the way it is now the various shields are close to useless for a TriForm thanks to the time involved to retoggle everything once you drop to Human only to have them detoggle once you swap to another form.  This part I'll agree with 100%.

 

A taunt aura for Dwarf form I'd agree with to some extent, but keep the taunt magnitudes and duration below Tanker or Brute values... a specialist AT should be better than a Keld generalist.  Dwarf form is a backup or emergency tanker, not a replacement for a primary aggro management AT.

 

I'll give a straight no on the idea of a toggle aura inherent.  It's pointless in the Human and Nova form and redundant or OP in the Dwarf form.  Some moderate level of Mez protection in the S/L shield would make sense, maybe MAG 4 or so?

 

Let's keep the slot crunch as it is currently, it's part of the tradeoff for being a jack of all trades.  Slot placement should be a tradeoff.  Kelds have more powers than other AT's so they have more versatility.  Allowing them still more slots is just too much... although you're already getting more slots than other AT's thanks to each additional power having a base slot.

 

Let's just go with the toggle suppression and forget the rest; that will make a fairly large difference in and of itself.  It'll also cause more angst when building your character as you'll have still MORE powers to choose between.  Choosing between different powers should be a tough choice; there should be definite benefits and drawbacks to going whichever way you choose.  Human form toggles suppress when shifted?  Now I need to decide if the shields are more important than another power and this is a good thing.

[Wavicle]

Adding slots? It feels like you didn’t actually read my post.

[Call Me Awesome]

11 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Adding slots? It feels like you didn’t actually read my post.

SwitchFade mentioned that in the post above mine.  I've seen it brought up as a request in several other similar threads.

[Wavicle]

Oh, yeah, that's a terrible idea.

I don't agree that Dwarf is ok just being an off tank.

Kheldians must be able to tank, actually tank, on teams.  If its restricted to Dwarf, allowed in Human or even Nova or not.  In AT LEAST Dwarf form Kheldians must be able to actually tank, with an aura.  I would prefer giving them a human form punchvoke option in addition.  I like the idea of Nova too, but I can see that's more iffy.

[presto2112]

6 hours ago, Call Me Awesome said:

I agree wholeheartedly with the toggle suppression instead of deactivation, the way it is now the various shields are close to useless for a TriForm thanks to the time involved to retoggle everything 

This

[Call Me Awesome]

7 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

Oh, yeah, that's a terrible idea.

I don't agree that Dwarf is ok just being an off tank.

Kheldians must be able to tank, actually tank, on teams.  If its restricted to Dwarf, allowed in Human or even Nova or not.  In AT LEAST Dwarf form Kheldians must be able to actually tank, with an aura.  I would prefer giving them a human form punchvoke option in addition.  I like the idea of Nova too, but I can see that's more iffy.

And a Dwarf CAN tank if needed, just not as well as a Tanker or Brute... two AT's that are designed to hold aggro.  An AT that's designed to be as versatile as a Keld can NOT be equal to a specialist AT in that AT's specialty.  That means that, by design, Kelds can't be as good at tanking as a true Tanker, nor can they be as good at damage output as a Blaster or melee damage as a Scrapper or at control as a Controller.  They can perform all of those roles in a team at need, but not any of them as well as the specialist AT.  This is BY DESIGN and REQUIRED for any semblance of game balance.

 

If a Keld can deal damage like a Blaster, tank like a Tanker, melee like a Scrapper and control like a Controller then it's one hellaciously overpowered AT.

 

I play Kelds.  I had both a PB and WS at 50 on Live and I have a PB in the 40's here.  I enjoy the AT, it's fun and a challenge to play well.  I can fill most roles needed in a team at any given moment.  Melee getting overwhelmed by incoming damage?  Dwarf can take the brunt of it to allow a moment to regroup.  Everything going smoothly?  Nova puts out good damage with Human adding utility and melee attacks when the party gets close along with some light control.  I do not need to fill every role perfectly, I'm flexible and can fill the role needed at that moment.  YES a Tanker can, and damn well should, out tank me.  YES, a Blaster can and should out damage me.  YES a Scrapper can out do me in Melee.  What none of them can do is take whatever role the team needs at that moment.  A Keld isn't a mediocre Blaster, it's also a pinch hitter Scrapper, an off Tanker and a weak Controller.  All rolled up into one AT and able to change roles in an instant.

[siolfir]

9 hours ago, Call Me Awesome said:

If a Keld can deal damage like a Blaster, tank like a Tanker, melee like a Scrapper and control like a Controller then it's one hellaciously overpowered AT.

Or a Fortunata.

Joking, joking... Fortunatas don't get taunt auras and have a 400% damage cap.

 

But you won't be doing all of those at the same time anyway due to limited power selection in the various forms. The limited selection of powers means that you're already not doing those jobs as well as the ATs you're copying from anyway: if a Dwarf is tanking as well as a Brute (you were the one bringing up Tankers) it's doing less damage while doing so; when blasting away in Nova your sustained AoE damage is probably around a Blasters but you aren't getting as much burst; unless the Scrapper gimped their build you simply aren't going to keep up with one in melee damage; and a few control powers - most of which already exist in similar or better form in melee damage sets - does not a Controller make.

[Doomrider]

If there is any role a Kheldian can fill best within the framework of the Archetype (PB + WS; and depending on build) is a Tank. No it does not mean they are as good as a Tank for aggro management, but you could also argue that the amount of aggro management needed (if at all) entirely depends on your team makeup which is rarely going to be static.

That being said, being able to exemp down to 15 and have access to a taunt and punchvoke in Dwarf Form and the ability to cap resistances through IO's even at that level can certainly make you "tanky" enough to sit in for a tank should the need arise. 
 

One thing that should be fixed though, IMHO, is for Warshades' Dwarf Mire to also have taunt baked into it's attack just like it's ST attacks have and just like it's counter part the White Dwarf has in it's Dwarf Flare aoe ability. 
I'm not sure if this was an oversight but it hardly seems intentional to make 1 out of it's 4 attacks available to Black Dwarf not apply a taunt when the other 3 do, and having a 15' radius pbaoe that also applies a taunt with help tremendously with grabbing aggro.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Doomrider

[Wavicle]

 Dwarf form needs a taunt aura.

 

Human form needs a way to be able to punchvoke , optionally.

 

These things, along with toggle suppression, are non-negotiable.

 

Those are the minimums.

Edited January 27, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[SwitchFade]

3 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

 Dwarf form needs a taunt aura.

 

Human form needs a way to be able to punchvoke , optionally.

 

These things, along with toggle suppression, are non-negotiable.

 

Those are the minimums.

Human form punchvoke is a no vote from me, sorry.

[Wavicle]

Just now, SwitchFade said:

Human form punchvoke is a no vote from me, sorry.

As an option, not just on all the time.

[Wavicle]

So yea, I still like my original suggestion, but at a minimum:

Human form toggle suppression

Human form inherent toggle that grants punchvoke

Dwarf form taunt aura

[Rooster Gold]

A Quick-Fix would be simple as giving them an Ancillary/epic pools powers that counteracted the Quantum's and added some of the other effects mentioned.

[Super Atom]

More slots? nah.

 

What would be nice is if certain repeated abilities used the same slotting but were modified by the active form. Kheld's struggle but more slots would be too much.

[Call Me Awesome]

On 1/27/2020 at 6:45 PM, Super Atom said:

More slots? nah.

 

What would be nice is if certain repeated abilities used the same slotting but were modified by the active form. Kheld's struggle but more slots would be too much.

Things like the various ranged attacks that are duplicated in Human and Nova used the same enhancements?  Not sure how that would work honestly.

[Wavicle]

2 hours ago, Call Me Awesome said:

Things like the various ranged attacks that are duplicated in Human and Nova used the same enhancements?  Not sure how that would work honestly.

Well they’re doing it for one of the attacks already.

[siolfir]

3 hours ago, sacredlunatic said:

Well they’re doing it for one of the attacks already.

Two, really - it's just that only one at a time is supposed to work in the alternate forms: T1 for Dwarf, T2 for Nova.

[TheSpiritFox]

On 1/22/2020 at 6:42 PM, Black Zot said:

 

Khelds do not even come close to being strong enough to justify having a hard counter pop up randomly among otherwise normal enemies.  Quants are an artifact of the same design paradigm that had characters struggling to take down 3 minions, and it's past time they joined the rest of Jack Emmert's stupid ideas in the garbage heap.

Literally the thing that made me quit city of heroes for like 5 years. Fuck Emmert and his stupid ass "LET'S PATTERN OURSELVES OFF WOW!" ideas.