Quick fix for Kheldian ATs

[Doomrider]

5 minutes ago, sacredlunatic said:

Yeah, like 2 points at lvl 1 but scales up to 4 at 50.

I think mez resistance is probably against the rules somehow, but asking for a 3-5% (unslottable) Defense bonus on the Dwarf form seems reasonable to me.  Helping some mezzes to miss would probably be good enough.

Against the rules how? Mez resist already exists in several powers. 

[Wavicle]

I’m just saying it might be asking a bit much. Tankers don’t typically get mez resistance, only mez protection. The exceptions are very particular.

 

You could make an argument for it.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, sacredlunatic said:

I’m just saying it might be asking a bit much. Tankers don’t typically get mez resistance, only mez protection. The exceptions are very particular.

 

You could make an argument for it.

Uh, I think you may be misunderstanding, Mez protection is superior. Mez resistance is merely reducing the time one is under effect. There would be less of an issue adding resist to a set than protection in terms of balance.

 

Mez protection renders one immune, so long as mez protection has higher mag. Mez resistance is generally useless to build for, as even 100% resistance merely halves the time of duration. For example, if I am held for 45 seconds and have 100% resistance the hold time is 22.5 in this scenario, which = death

 

The reason tanks get protection is it is superior, and mez resistance is then superfluous.

 

All of which points to passive mag resist as questionable, at best. In a toggle? Sure.

Edited February 11, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Wavicle]

6 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Uh, I think you may be misunderstanding, Mez protection is superior. Mez resistance is merely reducing the time one is under effect. There would be less of an issue adding resist to a set than protection in terms of balance.

 

Mez protection renders one immune, so long as mez protection has higher mag. Mez resistance is generally useless to build for, as even 100% resistance merely halves the time of duration. For example, if I am held for 45 seconds and have 100% resistance the hold time is 22.5 in this scenario, which = death

 

The reason tanks get protection is it is superior, and mez resistance is then superfluous.

 

All of which points to passive mag resist as questionable, at best. In a toggle? Sure.

Yes, I know all of that, thank you.

Look at the mez protection that ALL melee get.  Very few get mez resistance.  That is something that is kept in power pools and set bonuses for the most part.  You would have to make an affirmative argument to demonstrate a reason why Khelds should be different in that regard.

And again, no, this power is comparable to Arachnos Soldier passive mez protection and has no effect on either form. Easily justifiable.

Edited February 11, 2020 by sacredlunatic

[Wavicle]

Mez protection in toggles would be stronger. Mag 8-10. Which would make Dwarf form superfluous. Mag 2-4 protection in the lvl 1 passive is the clear way to go.

That + form toggle suppression.  Done.

[Bossk_Hogg]

Additionally, up the mag protection each controller/dom gives to 3-4. Mag 1 is fucking useless when your average pud villain minion is throwing around mag 3 holds/stuns. 

[Wavicle]

Just now, Bossk_Hogg said:

Additionally, up the mag protection each controller/dom gives to 3-4. Mag 1 is fucking useless when your average pud villain minion is throwing around mag 3 holds/stuns. 

If we have passive three mag then that isn’t necessary.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Mez protection in toggles would be stronger. Mag 8-10. Which would make Dwarf form superfluous. Mag 2-4 protection in the lvl 1 passive is the clear way to go.

That + form toggle suppression.  Done.

Disagree. Done.

Edited February 12, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Captain Powerhouse]

I'm not going to comment on most of the thread at this time, but wanted to clarify one thing:

 

Toggle Suppression means that the effects stop applying under specific conditions (in the context of this thread, while shape-shifted.) This, however, does not remove the endurance cost.

 

How many would accept that turning on Dwarf or Nova form no longer stops the endurance drain of powers that are doing nothing?

 

 

[SwitchFade]

19 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I'm not going to comment on most of the thread at this time, but wanted to clarify one thing:

 

Toggle Suppression means that the effects stop applying under specific conditions (in the context of this thread, while shape-shifted.) This, however, does not remove the endurance cost.

 

How many would accept that turning on Dwarf or Nova form no longer stops the endurance drain of powers that are doing nothing?

 

 

I would not be in favor of end drain from suppressed toggles while form shifted

[Doomrider]

22 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I'm not going to comment on most of the thread at this time, but wanted to clarify one thing:

 

Toggle Suppression means that the effects stop applying under specific conditions (in the context of this thread, while shape-shifted.) This, however, does not remove the endurance cost.

 

How many would accept that turning on Dwarf or Nova form no longer stops the endurance drain of powers that are doing nothing?

 

 

On one hand I suppose you could see the endurance drain as an convenience tax for be able to keep toggles on.

On the hand though, what if the form powers themselves were to grant the AT specific toggles (the resistance shields for WS/PB, Orbiting Death, Ink Aspect etc.) an amount of end reduction relative to their base end cost while Nova or Dwarf form were toggled? We already have Bio Armor's adaptation altering the attributes of certain toggles within that set depending on which adaptation is active. Could something similar be applied to Nova and Dwarf toggles to at least offset the end cost of those suppressed toggles while Dwarf or Nova are on? 

I guess a more specific mechanical question is; is it possible to grant end reduction to a specific toggle or only global end reduction?

[siolfir]

36 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I'm not going to comment on most of the thread at this time, but wanted to clarify one thing:

 

Toggle Suppression means that the effects stop applying under specific conditions (in the context of this thread, while shape-shifted.) This, however, does not remove the endurance cost.

 

How many would accept that turning on Dwarf or Nova form no longer stops the endurance drain of powers that are doing nothing?

 

 

That the endurance cost would still be present was brought up in different threads as well, where the idea was to bake the endurance cost into the power effects and have the forms enable or disable it.

 

Another option that I haven't seen would be to boost the recovery of the forms to compensate somewhat - but not completely - for the cost of the toggles. Since it's at +15% now, which was theoretically to compensate for the endurance cost of the form toggle itself, maybe boost to +50% to allow running a little more than 2 extra toggles at base cost or 3 with endurance reduction? This would mean that continuing to run the toggles would be a convenience tax and you'd have more endurance recovery if you detoggle them, but you could also run them and have approximately the same endurance you have now.

 

You'd still have problems running Orbiting Death, but another suggestion was to allow Orbiting Death in Black Dwarf, and if it were working it would justify the endurance cost.

 

Edit again:

5 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

On the hand though, what if the form powers themselves were to grant the AT specific toggles (the resistance shields for WS/PB, Orbiting Death, Ink Aspect etc.) an amount of end reduction relative to their base end cost while Nova or Dwarf form were toggled?

I don't think you could do a line for endurance reduction, but an unslottable +recovery that's only enabled with nova or dwarf might work; as I said before, IIRC that's why the forms have +recovery.

Edited February 12, 2020 by siolfir
wording changes on +recovery option after seeing other replies

[Captain Powerhouse]

8 minutes ago, Doomrider said:

AT specific toggles (the resistance shields for WS/PB, Orbiting Death, Ink Aspect etc.) an amount of end reduction relative to their base end cost while Nova or Dwarf form were toggled?

 

End reduction is a percentage divisor, and is global. There is no way to use enddiscount to make it exactly a zero sum exclusively for the toggles. Every power used would be affected.

 

7 minutes ago, siolfir said:

That the endurance cost would still be present was brought up in different threads as well, where the idea was to bake the endurance cost into the power effects and have the forms enable or disable it.

 

-End and EndCost are not equivalent, this would not work.

 

13 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Another option that I haven't seen would be to boost the recovery

 

There is no way to ever make this an accurate zero sum. A player might be running the toggles, someone else might actually turn them off, or maybe not even have some in their builds. Or slot for discount so their cost is different.

 

15 minutes ago, siolfir said:

You'd still have problems running Orbiting Death,

 

Just like mez suppression: any offensive auras (anything that currently drops when held, sleeped or stunned)  would not be considered if toggle suppression is implemented.

 

Overall: I mentioned that the end cost does not go away because it is simply the compromise that would need to be accepted for toggle suppression to be pursued.

[siolfir]

10 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Overall: I mentioned that the end cost does not go away because it is simply the compromise that would need to be accepted for toggle suppression to be pursued.

In that case, assuming that mez protection doesn't get baked into the toggles, I personally would simply continue to skip the shields on tri-form builds; While I could build around the extra endurance drain, Khelds are slot-starved already and I'd rather just build for set bonuses that make the shields irrelevant. Others may feel differently.

 

It would be convenient to save the animation times for Shadow Cloak and Inky Aspect, I suppose, but my biggest issue is dropping out of Dwarf only to find out I have to immediately turn it back on because there was a mez sitting on me, so the mez protection outside of Dwarf farm is more important than keeping the toggles up.

[Doomrider]

32 minutes ago, siolfir said:

 

Another option that I haven't seen would be to boost the recovery of the forms to compensate somewhat - but not completely - for the cost of the toggles. Since it's at +15% now, which was theoretically to compensate for the endurance cost of the form toggle itself, maybe boost to +50% to allow running a little more than 2 extra toggles at base cost or 3 with endurance reduction? This would mean that continuing to run the toggles would be a convenience tax and you'd have more endurance recovery if you detoggle them, but you could also run them and have approximately the same endurance you have now.

 

I actually like this idea. It's not perfect, but I don't think any implementation of toggle suppression would be at any rate. I'm sure people who choose to run toggle-less would appreciate the added minor recovery boost if nothing else. 

 

35 minutes ago, siolfir said:

 

You'd still have problems running Orbiting Death, but another suggestion was to allow Orbiting Death in Black Dwarf, and if it were working it would justify the endurance cost.

 

I like how CP quoted you on this but specifically edited out the last bit about allowing OD to be use able in Black Dwarf. 😁

[Wavicle]

 Given the buffs that both blasters and tankers have received, I think it would be completely reasonable for squid and crab forms to not only have lower endurance costs themselves but also higher endurance modification bonuses, although perhaps only partially slottable. 

[Wavicle]

Hell, give the Nova and Dwarf NO end cost plus improved end mod.

[kelika2]

+Jump added to Nova Forms for Flight Control

Taunt Aura added to Dwarf forms

White Dwarf getting another melee attack instead of a heal

[SwitchFade]

53 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

+Jump added to Nova Forms for Flight Control

Taunt Aura added to Dwarf forms

White Dwarf getting another melee attack instead of a heal

Nova form is quite literally the only AT in the game that ignores travel suppression. I don't want to sacrifice that if such a thing as adding flight control would result in. I'm not opposed to better control, but squidy ignores supression, which most people forget. As long as that is left untouched, sure.

 

Taunt in dwarf... Not opposed, bit I'm liking the idea that orbiting debt is a Dwarf usable power, with a taunt proc in it.

 

PB changes, no opinion.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

IMO when concerning PBs the Sentinal AT has basically made them obsolete. Ranged blasting with strong survival was basically what a PB was all about, now with their much lower dmg cap, and not having any where near the same level of tankiness of a sentinal/scrapper/stalker due to their getting proper mez protections, while a PB is so toggle heavy, its just not really an easy fix. I mean make a PB better then a sentinal in survival aspects or dmg, or both and you then undermine that entire AT.  Ive made several PBs human form, tri form, specific form specilaists, and all just dont do enough compared to blasters, scrappers, tanks,, brutes, sents, even defenders solo will out dps a kheld if built as an offender. And due to the existence of Qs a kheld is one sucker shot away from being stunned and overwhelmed so you always have to be paying extra attention to mobs cant just let ones hair down and mass murder like the other ATs.

 

My human form PB is maybe my very favorite in concept and RP, and its only due to him being meant to be able to fly from the get go that I choose PB for the concept, but even on a full team with cosmic balance and buffs from allies my PB tends to feel weaker then my scrappers, stalkers, brutes, sents, etc well you get the idea. For an AT that was once a reward for having a capped character, the Kheldians, especially PB have imo been left to rot so long I cant imagine what can be done to fix them.

 

Id say at the very least same dmg cap as blasters, same res cap as tanks, and have them at least get some modest lvl of CC protection on one of their toggles.

 

Truly I want Kheldians to be the best ATs largely because they do have the whole Q bane. To deserve that bane they need to be numerical better then the ATs they most closely compete with. Would that lead to them being over played? maybe, but maybe considering lore, the power of the nictus should be great enough to tempt many to convert, and actually feel like an upgrade when a player decides to reimagine a character as having fused with a peace bringer.

 

Considering I am extremely anti khedlian in game in RP as berk, seeing all warshades as nictus, and PBs as little different, from the pov of ol berk, the fact I am asking for them to be lifted up enough to make me actually want to play one of mine over my blaster name sake may tell you how bad I view current kheld sitch. When I RP dual an evil nictus I dont want it to take all off one strong CC effect and a few hard hitting attacks for my blaster to wipe the floor with the poor bugger. And I dont want them to have to stay in dwarf form which I can just pull a superman vs hulk and fly above them forcing them to go squishy nova to get into range of me.

[...]

I think a more important consideration for Khelds is the damage per activation time of many of their powers. Honestly, it can feel like you're pointlessly poking enemies over and over again. 

 

As an (internal) example, dark nova detonation and dark detonation have the same damage per activation time (and same recharge), despite nova form having a 1.2 ranged modifier and human form having a 0.8 ranged modifier. This makes no sense. 

 

Kheld single target damage can be pretty terrible too. Why is Nova form NOT the go to choice for single target damage? Again, this makes no sense.

 

Either up the damage or lower the activation time. Things are currently so undertuned.  

 

The other major issue I see with Khelds is that their defensive powers are not very synergistic. As it is, eclipse and light form are extremely powerful, to such an extent that many builds advocate avoiding your defensive toggles (and white dwarf for PBs). And the resist toggles are essentially useless in a multi form build. This is just bad design. Compare this to the VEATs, who offer layered defenses with powers that synergize well. 

 

For me, the priorities would be:

- make kheld damage per activation times comparable competitive with other classes, and reflective of their damage modifiers. 

- increase nova form single target damage. 

- dwarf form taunt aura and dwarf form punchvoke. Dwarves should be able to hold aggro like a brute. 

- as an aside, I don't think human form needs taunts or punchvoke. That's what dwarf is for. 

- endurance neutral (or near neutral) toggle supression. This may not be possible per the Captain's comments. That said, maybe something similar to the way bio armor works might be reasonable (toggle shields provide a recovery boost when shifted). 

- make the inherent give mag 2 or 3 status protection per controller/dominator. Or change it to damage and resist like the other ATs (consider the dominator like a blaster and the controller like a defender) 

- make the inherent when teamed with other EATS a little more useful. Maybe 5% resist and 10% damage buff (ie half of both the offensive and defensive buff) instead of the slow resistance. 

- I'm sure this will be controversial, but I'd consider allowing power pool toggles in forms. Honestly, every guide out there for just about every other AT tells you to build defense. Maneuvers/combat jumping/weave is a pretty standard power pool selection for a lot of ATs because it is so effective. Tri form builds are excluded from power pools for flavor reasons... but realistically without game design reason. "Versatility" doesn't make a convincing argument in the post-IO/incarnate game. And Khelds are obviously not overpowered, or we wouldn't see these threads keep popping up. Lets just embrace the usefulness of defense. It's really not that different from being able to use incarnates while shifted. 

[Doomrider]

27 minutes ago, Vooded said:

I think a more important consideration for Khelds is the damage per activation time of many of their powers. Honestly, it can feel like you're pointlessly poking enemies over and over again. 

 

Agreed. I cannot stress this enough. Especially in the light of the tank buffs. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if we see Tank DPS performance now eclipse that of Khelds.

One of the biggest issues is activation time, not just of Nova Det as you reference above but the ST abilities. Incandescent Strike for example at a 3.3 sec animation time is actually a DPS loss to take and slot over a power pool ability like Cross punch. Especially when you factor in things like damage procs. It makes no sense for your big hitter ST attack to be a DPS loss, that is bad design. This ability and ones like it should at the very least get the same treatment dom's /energy assault got with Total Focus (and likewise other AT versions that share the same animation) in changing that 3.3 sec animation time to 2.5 sec.

[SwitchFade]

In thinking more about toggle suppression in forms, for which I initially was indifferent, I must now vote no after further consideration, for several reasons.

 

1. If I am a tri form welding Kheldian, I would not have enough slots to make forms effective, so this is largely moot, as I have said before. It's pointless for toggle shields and attacks to be active in human form, when they're largely of no use, like most powers underslotted.

 

2. If I am a bi form Kheldian, I could slot human powers to be effective, and in this case toggle suppression makes sense. Which leads to...

 

3. Choosing forms has, and should, always be a trade. Much like using rest, I accept the fact that I am rooted and vulnerable, or using energy transfer, I damage myself. If human form where made as powerful in bi or tri form as it is in single form, then the point of forms is moot. When I choose forms, I unlock powers that are mutually exclusive with others, in this case human form.

 

4. The end drain would carry over, no thanks.

 

I would hesitantly consider bi form be allowed to toggle surpress, but the effort and work to make such a strange contrivance happen is not worth the return. Kheldians are far better served from fixes that have a much lower time investment and yield far better returns.

 

Orbiting debt works in dwarf, mag protection is a selectable power replacing a human form power no one uses, damage cap increase, taunt proc in dwarf, nova damage buff, make each form more potent, have a way to achieve mag protection in human, etc.

[...]

58 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

In thinking more about toggle suppression in forms, for which I initially was indifferent, I must now vote no after further consideration, for several reasons.

 

1. If I am a tri form welding Kheldian, I would not have enough slots to make forms effective, so this is largely moot, as I have said before. It's pointless for toggle shields and attacks to be active in human form, when they're largely of no use, like most powers underslotted.

 

2. If I am a bi form Kheldian, I could slot human powers to be effective, and in this case toggle suppression makes sense. Which leads to...

 

3. Choosing forms has, and should, always be a trade. Much like using rest, I accept the fact that I am rooted and vulnerable, or using energy transfer, I damage myself. If human form where made as powerful in bi or tri form as it is in single form, then the point of forms is moot. When I choose forms, I unlock powers that are mutually exclusive with others, in this case human form.

 

4. The end drain would carry over, no thanks.

 

I would hesitantly consider bi form be allowed to toggle surpress, but the effort and work to make such a strange contrivance happen is not worth the return. Kheldians are far better served from fixes that have a much lower time investment and yield far better returns.

 

Orbiting debt works in dwarf, mag protection is a selectable power replacing a human form power no one uses, damage cap increase, taunt proc in dwarf, nova damage buff, make each form more potent, have a way to achieve mag protection in human, etc.

1. Not everything needs 6 slots to be effective. Particularly if you take cardiac for your alpha slot. 

 

2 and 3. You still have at most 67 slots to give to powers. Players will still have to choose which forms to focus on. 

 

4. The Captain suggested that it will not be a perfect zero sum. But he did not explicitly state that something workable is impossible. 

 

As it is, multi form and the resist toggles are mutually exclusive. There aren't too many other powersets in the game where some of your powers deprecate your other powers - granite armor being the one that comes most easily to mind. This design hasn't really been repeated since the early game ... because it sucks. 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Vooded

[SwitchFade]

24 minutes ago, Vooded said:

1. Not everything needs 6 slots to be effective. Particularly if you take cardiac for your alpha slot. 

 

2 and 3. You still have at most 67 slots to give to powers. Players will still have to choose which forms to focus on. 

 

4. The Captain suggested that it will not be a perfect zero sum. But he did not explicitly state that something workable is impossible. 

 

As it is, multi form and the resist toggles are mutually exclusive. There aren't too many other powersets in the game where some of your powers deprecate your other powers - granite armor being the one that comes most easily to mind. This design hasn't really been repeated since the early game ... because it sucks. 

1. Agreed. This is rumination though, as Kheldians require heavy slotting when forming.

 

2. Agreed, and 1 above.

 

4. No argument there, just a vote on any endurance drain that is na increase.

 

There's opportunity cost in all aspects of the game, rightly so. For example on any AT: Take all primary powers? Perhaps can't fit in all secondary and pools. Take all primary and secondary? Can't fit in pools. Personal force fields renders one only able to affect self, due to the healing and defense. Attack while stealthed or click a glowie? Not stealthed. Use the parry in katana? Defense big, bit slow attack chain and lower dps. Use confront in scrapper? Reduced dps, but a teammate is safer.

 

Plenty of powers have an opportunity cost. The point of forms is that we unlock something incredibly powerful, in trade for human being incredibly powerful. I don't agree that all three should be equally Uber simultaneously. I vote, buff forms and human mutually exclusively in most cases, and make certain toggles and powers carry over.

 

Orbiting debt in dwarf.

Mezprotection in human and nova.

Humanand nova damage cap increase.

ST damage bump in nova.

Increased control/support in human.

Aggro control buff in dwarf.

 

Make them compliment, worth taking more than now, but exclusive 90% of the time. Go human only? Good, kick ass. Go bi form? Good, more kick. Go tri form? Roflestomp. Human should not be able to novadwarf, while still novadwarfing, is my vote for the record.

Edited February 14, 2020 by SwitchFade