Katana and Broad Sword, any plans to look at the two? (Proposed potential solution inside)

[randolo]

Katana and Broad Sword are pretty much identical sets (more so than them vs the other weapon melee sets like mace and axe). However, when you look at any DPS spreadsheet/test/user experience playing both, Katana is better just about across the board. The damage of each power is slightly less in Katana however the costs, base recharge, and animation times, are much more in Katana's favor, leading to a overall significant DPS increase for Katana over Broad Sword.  Currently the only advantage that I can really see to using Broad sword vs Katana (other than aesthetic) is the ability to pair it with /Shield.

 

 

Is there any plans to take a look and even out the balance? Maybe it's just as simple as increasing the damage of Broad Sword powers to be equivalent to whatever the animation time/recharge difference is to their Katana counter parts so that the overall DPS is equivalent? This spreadsheet from the scrapper forums shows enough of the data to know that for "identical" sets, there's a tad of an imbalance.

 

 

I'm not saying Broad Sword is unplayable (I main a BS/SD scrapper) but it would be nice to not feel less than because I'm not at least using Katana (usually one of the first things I hear from folks is how Katana is just better Broad Sword).

 

Thanks for reading, If there is other feedback or ideas please feel free to put them here as well.

[Itikar]

25 minutes ago, randolo said:

Currently the only advantage that I can really see to using Broad sword vs Katana (other than aesthetic) is the ability to pair it with /Shield.

Same.

 

Oh, and broadsword does not suffer of the infamous invisible katana bug. 😛

 

Joking aside, I cannot agree more. Broadsword is one of those sets that really needs some love, and its comparison to katana, especially on the same archetype, really points at a set that needs some attention.

[Burnt Toast]

1 hour ago, randolo said:

Katana and Broad Sword are pretty much identical sets (more so than them vs the other weapon melee sets like mace and axe). However, when you look at any DPS spreadsheet/test/user experience playing both, Katana is better just about across the board. The damage of each power is slightly less in Katana however the costs, base recharge, and animation times, are much more in Katana's favor, leading to a overall significant DPS increase for Katana over Broad Sword.  Currently the only advantage that I can really see to using Broad sword vs Katana (other than aesthetic) is the ability to pair it with /Shield.

 

 

Is there any plans to take a look and even out the balance? Maybe it's just as simple as increasing the damage of Broad Sword powers to be equivalent to whatever the animation time/recharge difference is to their Katana counter parts so that the overall DPS is equivalent? This spreadsheet from the scrapper forums shows enough of the data to know that for "identical" sets, there's a tad of an imbalance.

 

 

I'm not saying Broad Sword is unplayable (I main a BS/SD scrapper) but it would be nice to not feel less than because I'm not at least using Katana (usually one of the first things I hear from folks is how Katana is just better Broad Sword).

 

Thanks for reading, If there is other feedback or ideas please feel free to put them here as well.

War Mace and Battle Axe are pretty much the exact same (Scrapper numbers used):

Tier 2 in Battle Axe has a .17 sec less activation time - same base damage

Tier 3 in Battle Axe has a .33 sec less activation time - same base damage

Tier 5 War Mace has a .6 less sec activation time - and does 44 more base damage

Tier 7 War Mace AoE same activation, but does 9 more base damage. 

Tier 8 Battle Axe same activation but does 33 more base damage

Tier 9 cone - same 180 degree arc - same activation - Battle Axe does 20 more base damage

 

Not a huge difference in them really. They both have kb/ku and war mace sometimes has stun instead. 

 

[SwitchFade]

Katana doesn't need looking at, fine as is.

 

Agree on the Broadsword needing refreshing

[Leogunner]

Broadsword has some advantages over Ninja Blade with regards to damage per activation having more clout when you can control when you do 2x damage.

[rebel_1812]

1 hour ago, Itikar said:

Same.

 

Oh, and broadsword does not suffer of the infamous invisible katana bug. 😛

 

Joking aside, I cannot agree more. Broadsword is one of those sets that really needs some love, and its comparison to katana, especially on the same archetype, really points at a set that needs some attention.

 

I have to concur.  It is a pretty easy fix too.  Just increase the damage numbers of broadsword to compensation for the animation time and cd numbers of katana to have roughly the same dps.  Kanata can still have lower energy costs.

[randolo]

I appreciate all of the feedback, we got in a large discussion on the discord last night and there was one big solid conclusion.

 

Broad Sword needs some love. How do we get this feedback up the chain for it to be looked at?

[Burnt Toast]

35 minutes ago, randolo said:

I appreciate all of the feedback, we got in a large discussion on the discord last night and there was one big solid conclusion.

 

Broad Sword needs some love. How do we get this feedback up the chain for it to be looked at?

The HC dev team already looks at the forums and takes not of things. The best thing you could do is start a discussion on what exactly should change and why. Now... with that said please be mindful that not all sets do the same damage, same recharge etc... you also have to take into account any secondary modifiers of each set when comparing them... AND ... not all sets are meant to be identical. A good example is fire does more damage than most sets BUT it has no secondary effect except damage - no -def, slow, stun, kb/kd/ku, etc. 

[Galaxy Brain]

Broadsword definitely needs a little something (Same with Battle Axe). Their main problems compared to their contemporaries are the animation times + area coverage (and DPA changes on Mace vs Axe). 

 

If Broadsword had a different way to build damage / proc DoT / etc over Katana, and if Axe had better AoE potential then each would have a distinct niche I think.

 

 

Edit @Burnt Toast,

 

True, but BS and Katana, and Axe and WM are both nearly identical sets to each other.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[randolo]

45 minutes ago, Burnt Toast said:

The HC dev team already looks at the forums and takes not of things. The best thing you could do is start a discussion on what exactly should change and why. Now... with that said please be mindful that not all sets do the same damage, same recharge etc... you also have to take into account any secondary modifiers of each set when comparing them... AND ... not all sets are meant to be identical. A good example is fire does more damage than most sets BUT it has no secondary effect except damage - no -def, slow, stun, kb/kd/ku, etc. 

Well, in this case specifically with Katana and BS, Katana also has all the -def that BS does too. there's no advantage to BS other than being able to use it with shields, which even with AAO it doesn't make up the damage difference.

[SwitchFade]

1 minute ago, randolo said:

Well, in this case specifically with Katana and BS, Katana also has all the -def that BS does too. there's no advantage to BS other than being able to use it with shields, which even with AAO it doesn't make up the damage difference.

Thematically, short swords from this era were mainly thrusting and hacking weapons.

 

Infantry from military organizations such as Roman military or Spartan military would pair these weapons with a shield, hacking and thrusting around the shield at exposed areas, such as a neck or limb.

 

Because of this method of use, there were often severe injuries that were not instantly lethal, but injuries where profuse bleeding occured.

 

So, if blunt weapons such as a mace cause secondary effects such as stun and axes cause similar I propose...

 

DoT. Very quick activating, perhaps 2-3 tics, and this is where the bump in damage is.

 

So, defininetly increase damage, perhaps a straight bump for some attacks, but perhaps some have a fast burst DoT. Adds something unique and period specific to the set 

[randolo]

53 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Thematically, short swords from this era were mainly thrusting and hacking weapons.

 

Infantry from military organizations such as Roman military or Spartan military would pair these weapons with a shield, hacking and thrusting around the shield at exposed areas, such as a neck or limb.

 

Because of this method of use, there were often severe injuries that were not instantly lethal, but injuries where profuse bleeding occured.

 

So, if blunt weapons such as a mace cause secondary effects such as stun and axes cause similar I propose...

 

DoT. Very quick activating, perhaps 2-3 tics, and this is where the bump in damage is.

 

So, defininetly increase damage, perhaps a straight bump for some attacks, but perhaps some have a fast burst DoT. Adds something unique and period specific to the set 

That's a way to do it. It doesn't even need to be that complicated though does it? They could adjust the base damage by a percentage of around what the difference in DPS is, or even meet it halfway and tune the damage up a smaller amount and maybe speed up the animations (is that possible?) to make up the difference.

 

changing that base damage to be an added DoT wouldn't be a bad thing either, I'm glad I'm not alone in the thought that Broad sword needs some love though.

[Galaxy Brain]

I'd vote against speeding up the animation... it becomes Katana then 😛 

[randolo]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I'd vote against speeding up the animation... it becomes Katana then 😛 

I'm also against that hahaha. I'd prefer beefing up the base damage, or adding an equivalent DoT

[Riverdusk]

20 hours ago, Leogunner said:

Broadsword has some advantages over Ninja Blade with regards to damage per activation having more clout when you can control when you do 2x damage.

This.  There is SOME advantage to being more front loaded vs. dps, although I wouldn't say it is huge.  But it makes the gap less an issue comparing the two sets on a stalker. 

 

There is also a proc advantage and as mentioned secondary availability advantages.  Broadsword needs some love, but Just boosting broadsword's damage to give it exactly equal base dps to katana I don't think is quite the way to go.   

 

However, Whirling Sword vs. Lotus Drops is probably the biggest offender to me though of where broadsword does need a big boost.  Katana's PBAoE is not only faster animating, but does better damage than the broadsword version on top of it (due to the higher lethal dot it has)!

[Sakura Tenshi]

As love goes: I'd want Brute/Tank/Scrapper broadsword to get the "quick AS" sword thrust attack to replace one of the existing power animations. I want to be INCREDIBILIS!

 

[Haijinx]

Katanas are just better.

 

Read the Trope

[Haijinx]

8 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Thematically, short swords from this era were mainly thrusting and hacking weapons.

 

What Era is "This Era"? 

 

Did I maybe miss part of the conversation?

 

 

[Leogunner]

53 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Katanas are just better.

 

Read the Trope

Negative rep for not including the link for sacrificing the quarterly 100 souls to the bottomless pit of tropes and browser tabs.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Leogunner said:

Negative rep for not including the link for sacrificing the quarterly 100 souls to the bottomless pit of tropes and browser tabs.

Lol yeah I know.  I'm on my phone at work.  Can't read TVtropes and linking is hard.  

[Sakura Tenshi]

kind of off topic here, and since I already posted For Honor, I think if I could have magic programming and animation powers, I'd actually just make a new 'katana' inspired FFXIV's Samurai class (basically a special combo system that builds up an a power draw attack. And a sword beam attack) with some cues from Kensei and Orochi.

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile I'd take what was katana, up some of it's damage, tweak some animations, and make it into 'longsword'. Also give it a few more Western style blades.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Sakura Tenshi

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

kind of off topic here, and since I already posted For Honor, I think if I could have magic programming and animation powers, I'd actually just make a new 'katana' inspired FFXIV's Samurai class (basically a special combo system that builds up an a power draw attack. And a sword beam attack) with some cues from Kensei and Orochi.

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile I'd take what was katana, up some of it's damage, tweak some animations, and make it into 'longsword'. Also give it a few more Western style blades.

/jranger on the longsword UNLESS ..

 

The Tier 9 is a ranged pommel throw called "End them Rightly"

 

 

[Sakura Tenshi]

1 minute ago, Haijinx said:

/jranger on the longsword UNLESS ..

 

The Tier 9 is a ranged pommel throw called "End them Rightly"

 

 

That's the assassin's strike for Stalkers. So sadly only stalkers will end people rightly.

[randolo]

So back to the original topic off Katana/BS balance (since those sets are so close). Other than buffing the base damage of BS or adding a DoT or something. Does anyone have any cool ideas for it?

[Leogunner]

1 hour ago, randolo said:

So back to the original topic off Katana/BS balance (since those sets are so close). Other than buffing the base damage of BS or adding a DoT or something. Does anyone have any cool ideas for it?

Improving the range (just the range) of the AoE powers would give it some alternative advantage over Kat without actually changing damage numbers.