If you could change the sentinel (or not) which would you choose?(Poll/Opinions)

[Wavicle]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Just a side note: I just soloed a max diff ITF with my fire/bio sent. Two faceplants from Requiem. Taking him down took about as long as the entire 4th mission. No ultimate insps. Just used what I showed up with and what dropped.

 

Just one point of data.

Solo capability is not at issue.

[Frostweaver]

1 hour ago, Zerethon said:

The "SO Vacuum" is a very legitimate comparison, not everyone has 500 quintillion influence and a personal farming account to PL their own toons, so comparing SO-slotted builds means more to me than the absolutely IO'd right to hell L50 builds when i'm looking at class power or issues.

After all, it's not like the AVERAGE PLAYER who decides to make a sentinel is going to hit level 20, and then partial slot all their non-50 sets and expand the slotting of them every time they get more slots.

Not to mention, a LOT of people, including several of my friends hardly use ATO or purps in their builds, because they don't feel like putting hundreds of millions of INF into a single alt....when they have a couple dozen or more alts to build out, heck, half of them don't even use Mid's

And, again, you hit it on the head. Sentinels aren't really blaster-tier DPS, even as broken as you can get with incarns and a procmonster build, you're still only doing about 50% of a blasters damage....at BEST. Compared to a Crab/Fort/Def/Corr though, your damage is a lot closer or better, but you also have the survival.

I don't base my evaluations around the lowest common denominator. I acknowledged that a lack of build expertise was an issue, and proc builds are NOT expensive. If someone doesn't want to 'spend the time' or 'spend the influence' on a cheap proc build(usually around 80 mil, easily obtainable by ANY player, especially if you grab a few merits by doing ouro missions) Then they are welcome to whine about how much they hate a sentinel, and I will correct them.

Not sure how you are spending 500 mil on a sentinel, but I have NEVER spent that much on a toon... you can easily pick up 100 merits in about two hours, as well as scads of influence and orange salvage. I refuse to base my opinion of an AT on how 'easy' it is... but even if you do, sentinel is much, much easier to build and play well than a blaster, if only because of innate mez protection.

The problem is that on the one hand you are talking about the bottom rung of players, but you are comparing it to high-difficulty content... bottom rung players don't play high difficulty content, They do not solo +4/8 DA missions. If they try, they are gonna fail just as badly on a sentinel as they will on a blaster.


So, let's try to cement these goalposts into place. Are we talking about bottom rung players, where a 'cheaply built' sentinel is still going to survive far better and contribute more, or are we talking top-tier hundreds of millions of influence players, where proc monster builds and knowledge of team assistance techniques is going to contribute more to a team than sheer dps?


BTW- 50% damage? Umm... no. I have 4 blasters in the 'top tier' category, and my sentinel clears mission maps at high difficulty (+2/8) at nearly the same speed (Maybe a few seconds slower) as my blasters do (also at +2/8). Much more safely. 50% is WAY off the mark. 20% is a closer estimate.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Solo capability is not at issue.

That which can solo can team. That which doesn't die while teaming does more DPS than the players wasting time eating dirt.

[Frostweaver]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Solo capability is not at issue.

Why not? It's certainly a data point.
Without including solo ability, you are ignoring the largest factor of being able to make expensive builds, as well as a ton of the AT's utility.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Frostweaver said:

I don't base my evaluations around the lowest common denominator.

I laughed my ass off at this sentence. THANK YOU! Also, agreed.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Frostweaver said:

Why not? It's certainly a data point.
Without including solo ability, you are ignoring the largest factor of being able to make expensive builds, as well as a ton of the AT's utility.

It's not at issue. Sentinels do not have trouble soloing, which is what Bill Z said. However the PROBLEM with Sentinels is they do not provide enough to a TEAM. Therefore solo performance is not relevant to the discussion.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

That which can solo can team. That which doesn't die while teaming does more DPS than the players wasting time eating dirt.

Blasters do not spend enough time eating dirt to make the difference. Not anymore anyway, maybe before i24.

[Frostweaver]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Just a side note: I just soloed a max diff ITF with my fire/bio sent. Two faceplants from Requiem. Taking him down took about as long as the entire 4th mission. No ultimate insps. Just used what I showed up with and what dropped.

 

Just one point of data.

 

Granted.... it did take 3:22 including a lunch break and some smoke breaks.

You done good, but I cannot help but wonder if we could tweak your build to be a lot better 🙂

I must admit though, that my favorite sentinel powersets are dp and br... and it's possible that those set's incredible performance might be giving me an inaccurate picture of how sentinels in general perform.

In that case, though.... maybe it's the non-DP non-BR primaries that need tweaking, rather than the whole AT?

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

It's not at issue. Sentinels do not have trouble soloing, which is what Bill Z said. However the PROBLEM with Sentinels is they do not provide enough to a TEAM. Therefore solo performance is not relevant to the discussion.

What the hell do scrappers add to a team that sentinels don't? More damage? Scrappers don't have a built in damres debuff and when improperly built also spend a whole lotta time eatin dirt.

 

A sent, being the tankmage that it is, speeds up hard target kills AND does so with 100% mitigation from melee attacks.

 

I'm not saying sents > scrappers. But they bring the same shit to the team. Killin baddies.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Frostweaver said:

You done good, but I cannot help but wonder if we could tweak your build to be a lot better 🙂

I must admit though, that my favorite sentinel powersets are dp and br... and it's possible that those set's incredible performance might be giving me an inaccurate picture of how sentinels in general perform.

In that case, though.... maybe it's the non-DP non-BR primaries that need tweaking, rather than the whole AT?

DP has the same issues other Sentinels have. I haven't tried BR, could be better, I don't know.

[Galaxy Brain]

Tossing this out there: Do we know the values of buffs you get for each opportunity? Would it be broken if both were combined to one opportunity buff?

 

I ask as it often seems like people get hung up on that part when trying out the AT, and it "feels" like you need both the T1 and T2 in order to function properly. On top of that, if you say miss with one while trying to proc Offense or Defense, you have a dilemma where you either wait to try again or "settle" for the other buff. Making it just 1 buff lets players pick either tier freely, and gives them 2 chances to proc the buff if they take both to mitigate misses.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Galaxy Brain

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Frostweaver said:

You done good, but I cannot help but wonder if we could tweak your build to be a lot better 🙂

I must admit though, that my favorite sentinel powersets are dp and br... and it's possible that those set's incredible performance might be giving me an inaccurate picture of how sentinels in general perform.

In that case, though.... maybe it's the non-DP non-BR primaries that need tweaking, rather than the whole AT?

Maybe that's a problem with the SETS and NOT the AT. Hmmmmmmmmm.

 

Maybe Fire and DP and BR are just flat out better across ALL ATs. Hmmmmmmm.

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

What the hell do scrappers add to a team that sentinels don't? More damage? Scrappers don't have a built in damres debuff and when improperly built also spend a whole lotta time eatin dirt.

 

A sent, being the tankmage that it is, speeds up hard target kills AND does so with 100% mitigation from melee attacks.

 

I'm not saying sents > scrappers. But they bring the same shit to the team. Killin baddies.

Scrappers kill WAY WAY WAY faster than Sentinels. The comparison is laughable.

[Frostweaver]

4 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

It's not at issue. Sentinels do not have trouble soloing, which is what Bill Z said. However the PROBLEM with Sentinels is they do not provide enough to a TEAM. Therefore solo performance is not relevant to the discussion.

They provide nearly as much damage as a scrapper or a stalker, and help the whole team do more damage like a lightweight defender... They provide as much as any other VEAT and more than several.
How is that not providing enough to a team?

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Tossing this out there: Do we know the values of buffs you get for each opportunity? Would it be broken if both were combined to one opportunity buff?

I don't think it would be broken.

I don't even think it would be broken to make them both TEAM buffs instead of self only.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Frostweaver said:

They provide nearly as much damage as a scrapper or a stalker, and help the whole team do more damage like a lightweight defender... They provide as much as any other VEAT and more than several.
How is that not providing enough to a team?

No, they do NOT. These claims are ridiculous. Nowhere NEAR as much damage as a scrapper or stalker and nowhere near as much support as a VEAT. Nonsense.

[Frostweaver]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Scrappers kill WAY WAY WAY faster than Sentinels. The comparison is laughable.

If you honestly believe that, then you have NO idea how to build a sentinel.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Scrappers kill WAY WAY WAY faster than Sentinels. The comparison is laughable.

When properly built, yes. My sent is on par with my brute on ST damage output. Right around the 4 min pylon time. Where the scrapper is around 3min. And the claws/bio scrapper around 2 mins.

 

Soooo way way way faster? Meh.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Frostweaver said:

If you honestly believe that, then you have NO idea how to build a sentinel.

If you honestly believe that sentinels do anywhere near the damage of stalkers or scrappers there is no point to continuing the discussion.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 minute ago, Frostweaver said:

If you honestly believe that, then you have NO idea how to build a sentinel.

I have to agree with Wavicle here, but I am probably ignorant of high end sentinels. 

 

How could you compare a built-up sentinel with a built-up Scrapper given the critical AtO's and more generous AoEs?

[Wavicle]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

When properly built, yes. My sent is on par with my brute on ST damage output. Right around the 4 min pylon time. Where the scrapper is around 3min. And the claws/bio scrapper around 2 mins.

 

Soooo way way way faster? Meh.

Yes, way faster. That's literally TWICE as fast on the stalker.

[Frostweaver]

@Wavicle:

You know, You are arguing a point that everyone else who has played the AT finds way, way off base.

Maybe you should post your builds and we can help you figure out what you are doing wrong, instead of making a bunch of broad statements based on YOUR anecdotes that utterly contrast with...well...Our anecdotes.

[Wavicle]

Just now, Frostweaver said:

@Wavicle:

You know, You are arguing a point that everyone else who has played the AT finds way, way off base.

Maybe you should post your builds and we can help you figure out what you are doing wrong, instead of making a bunch of broad statements based on YOUR anecdotes that utterly contrast with...well...Our anecdotes.

Everyone who has played the AT thinks that it's way off base to say Scrappers and Stalkers do way more damage?? Then why does this thread even exist? What a ridiculous thing to say.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Yes, way faster. That's literally TWICE as fast on the stalker.

And over a minute faster than the tank. Hmmm. I remember a time when anyone taking down a pylon under 5 mins was considered a god.

 

Sents don't need a buff. Tankmages don't need a buff. They're overpowered as it is.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And over a minute faster than the tank. Hmmm. I remember a time when anyone taking down a pylon under 5 mins was considered a god.

 

Sents don't need a buff. Tankmages don't need a buff. They're overpowered as it is.

citation needed*

 

If they are on par with other AT's then how would they be overpowered?