If you could change the sentinel (or not) which would you choose?(Poll/Opinions)

[Bill Z Bubba]

14 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

I've highlighted the key phrase that makes it obvious to everyone: Fire/Bio.  Anything Fire/* or */Bio, much less Fire+Bio, should be considered an outlier, since both of those sets have built-in advantages over other sets.  Comparing Fire Blast to any other Blast set is a non-starter, as is Bio (the poster child for a brokenly OP set) to any other mitigation set.

It's a fair statement. So explain why I feel the exact same with my dp/sr sent?

 

Edit: Who is in the 30s ... and doesn't hover.

 

Another edit: or my brand new lvl 14 rad/regen sent? We'll discount the fire/nin and fire/sr sents since they use fire blast.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[drbuzzard]

33 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Quite frankly, from the moment I first viewed them when the post-snap CoH was back online, I called them out for what they are: something that doesn't actually belong in this game.

 

Did the VEATs slip past you or something? They are tankmages, in addition to being tankbuffers and tanktrollers (on the widow side). Have you been saying they don't belong in the game either? 

 

Hell, my crab is actually a lot more durable than my sentinels (pick one of 16 or so), though the lack of a credible nuke puts him a bit behind in damage (I have the crabbermind build available, but I dislike how fast the pets die, though when it is all up, he shames sentinels in damage). The crab also hands out more goodies to the team around him. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by drbuzzard

[Rathulfr]

30 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It's a fair statement. So explain why I feel the exact same with my dp/sr sent?

I cannot explain your feelings.  I can only explain mine. 

 

I believe that your DP/SR Sent is probably excellent, especially if it's built anything like one of  @oldskool's.  If so, it probably is proc'ed to the gills and depends on the Psionic Mastery EPP for the majority of its DPS, like most of the examples of high-DPS Sentinel builds and posts in the pylon thread.  Not that there's anything wrong with that: folks can do what they wanna do, as long as the game allows it.

 

However, I'm of the opinion that a character should be good in spite of procs and EPP, rather than because of them.  I believe that the abuse/exploitation of procs is the biggest problem with CoH: HC right now.  They probably would've become a problem on retail, too, had the shutdown not occurred so soon after their implementation.  "Proc monster" builds have fundamentally altered the fundamental nature of the game, rendering "classic" builds irrelevant.  But that problem is a different topic entirely.

 

Back to my feelings.  I feel that Sentinels should be more powerful with just SOs and/or Common IOs, and with only their Primary, Secondary, and pool powers.  That means it should be more fun to play a Sentinel up through the levels, instead of just at end-game when I can equip a bunch of procs and rely on my EPP for DPS.

 

Don't get me wrong: I still think Sentinels are probably still one of the best entry-level solo ATs, for precisely the same reasons as Scrappers and Brutes -- durability.  But their entry-level solo DPS is nowhere near as good as that of an equivalent Scrapper/Brute.  And for me, that's precisely the problem: if the only difference between a Sentinel and a Scrapper is supposed to be range versus DPS, then why is entry-level Sentinel DPS so much less than entry-level Scrapper DPS?

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

If so, it probably is proc'ed to the gills and depends on the Psionic Mastery EPP for the majority of its DPS, like most of the examples of high-DPS Sentinel builds and posts in the pylon thread.

It's in the 30s, so no.

 

7 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

And for me, that's precisely the problem: if the only difference between a Sentinel and a Scrapper is supposed to be range versus DPS, then why is entry-level Sentinel DPS so much less than entry-level Scrapper DPS?

Again, precisely because the incoming damage at range is so drastically less than the incoming damage at melee.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It's in the 30s, so no.

Ah, my apologies for the false assumption, then.  I have and enjoy many Sentinel builds (see sig below).  I currently have two in their 30s, an AR/SR and an Ice/Invuln.  They're hella fun to play, I don't deny that.  But they definitely do less DPS than any comparable DPS character (ranged or melee) at the same level.

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

 

Did the VEATs slip past you or something? They are tankmages, in addition to being tankbuffers and tanktrollers (on the widow side). Have you been saying they don't belong in the game either? 

 

Hell, my crab is actually a lot more durable than my sentinels (pick one of 16 or so), though the lack of a credible nuke puts him a bit behind in damage (I have the crabbermind build available, but I dislike how fast the pets die, though when it is all up, he shames sentinels in damage). The crab also hands out more goodies to the team around him. 

Nope. Didn't forget them. But this is a sentinel thread. VEATs have their own ridiculous design issues.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Rathulfr said:

But they definitely do less DPS than any comparable DPS character (ranged or melee) at the same level.

Agreed. As safety goes up, damage should go down.

 

That's why my scrapper does better damage than my brute which does better damage than my tank. All Claws and SR so it's a true comparison.

[Rathulfr]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Agreed. As safety goes up, damage should go down.

 

That's why my scrapper does better damage than my brute which does better damage than my tank. All Claws and SR so it's a true comparison.

But are not Sentinels still less durable than Scrappers?  Don't they have res capped at 70%, instead of 75%?  I could be wrong about that -- I'm working ATM and can't check it in game.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Rathulfr

[nihilii]

Sentinels share the 75% RES CAP as other ATs. Defense hardcap is something absurd like 150%.

 

Sentinels get slightly lower values on their armors. I've never thought that was a particularly convincing point against Sentinels, because as Bill says, you take significantly less damage at range. Like... by a factor of 2.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

But are not Sentinels still less durable than Scrapper?  Don't they have res capped at 70%, instead of 75%?  I could be wrong about that -- I'm working ATM and can't check it in game.

Pretty sure they're the same caps. And coupled with being ranged instead of melee, they're actually vastly more durable.

 

Just logged mine on and ate an orange. Yes, damres cap is 75% just like scrappers.

 

Defense cap is 175%. Unsure if that's the same on scrappers.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Rathulfr]

1 minute ago, nihilii said:

Sentinels get slightly lower values on their armors. I've never thought that was a particularly convincing point against Sentinels, because as Bill says, you take significantly less damage at range. Like... by a factor of 2.

 

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And coupled with being ranged instead of melee, they're actually vastly more durable.

 

Ah, this is the tired old "range is defense" argument then.  I'm not going to rehash all that here, as it has all been said before elsewhere.  We are at that impasse, then, and I will simply agree to disagree.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

23 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Ah, this is the tired old "range is defense" argument then.  I'm not going to rehash all that here, as it has all been said before elsewhere.  We are at that impasse, then, and I will simply agree to disagree.

There is no argument. There is no impasse. Anyone that states range doesn't reduce incoming damage and thus the likelihood of faceplanting is delusional or lying.

 

I mean WTF.... go sit in melee on the 3rd mish of the ITF in the spawn of nothing but EB monsters and then hover above them blasting away and come back and tell me that being in melee doesn't increase incoming damage.

 

Seriously. WTF.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[Wavicle]

5 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

There is no argument. There is no impasse. Anyone that states range doesn't reduce incoming damage and thus the likelihood of faceplanting is delusional or lying.

But, as was determined with blasters, it isn’t Enough of a defense to call for such a large damage penalty.

 

 What it comes down to is inviting a Blaster, Scrapper, or Stalker to you’re team are all roughly equal helpful. Inviting a Sentinel is not. Again, just surviving is not a team contribution unless you have aoe taunts.

[Wavicle]

Fundamentally I believe the game Is flexible enough to allow for two ranged damage dealers that are neither support nor tanks, one a glass cannon and one not. But Sentinels do not currently measure up.

[oldskool]

This current train of thoughts has been a fun read.  

Here is my takeaway: 

 

How individual players build their characters have a heavy influence on their view of the AT.  I've seen Bill's builds for Claws/SR.  He was one of the early posters in the Pylon thread too.  That build's Pylon murder time has evolved over time, but Bill still has some preferences to his build that are different from Nihilii's.  Bill's preferences also influence how his Fire/Time Blaster build came out when it was shared in a thread.  I can see why certain opinions get formed just due to how people view the problem solving approach of builds.  

Rathulfr stated that ATs should be self sufficient and not reliant on things like procs or EPP for DPS.  That is going to have a very heavy influence on how one plays a primary.  Furthermore, look at the list of primary heroes for Rath.  They're all Energy Blast.  I know he has other characters in his stable, he's more than helpful to show those from time to time, but Energy Blast on Sentinels is crap all by itself.  It can take some procs and become better.  It can incorporate EPP and be a lot better.  However, Energy Blast's core damage is not in a good place when compared with a set like say, Sentinel Electrical Blast or even Psychic Blast.  

None of you are wrong in your assessments.  Not at all.  They're just different perspective influenced by personal choice in how the characters are built.  It makes comparisons on what's wrong or right very difficult to garner consensus on. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by oldskool

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

But, as was determined with blasters, it isn’t Enough of a defense to call for such a large damage penalty.

 

 What it comes down to is inviting a Blaster, Scrapper, or Stalker to you’re team are all roughly equal helpful. Inviting a Sentinel is not. Again, just surviving is not a team contribution unless you have aoe taunts.

Sentinels are not blasters. They have mez protection. They have armor. Sentinels come into the mix with built in damres reduction which can not only be stacked with multiple sentinels but be stacked on any damres debuffs you can slot in your build.

 

And again, a non-faceplated sent is going to out-dps the blaster who spends their time licking dirt.

[oldskool]

I've yet to encounter a team that declined to take my characters along just because they were Sentinels.  

I have been on a team where some knucklehead decided to get passive aggressive about my value to the team.  So I just opted to solo the rest of the entire TF without the team while they all meandered around with their thumbs in the ass.  

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  

[drbuzzard]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

Sentinels are not blasters. They have mez protection. They have armor. Sentinels come into the mix with built in damres reduction which can not only be stacked with multiple sentinels but be stacked on any damres debuffs you can slot in your build.

 

While this is true, it's not the whole story. Blasters can get mez protection (t4 clarion is permanent mez protection-maybe T3, don't recall). Blaster all have access to various flavors of armor in their EPPs. Also, the sentinel resistance debuff is either very weak (5%) or single target and tied to a screwy inherent. 

 

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

And again, a non-faceplated sent is going to out-dps the blaster who spends their time licking dirt.

 

Now I will certainly grant that the ride to 50 is much easier on a sentinel, because they won't die nearly as much. However the survival disparity between blasters and sentinels at end game (completed builds with IOs and incarnates) is a much smaller gap than you describe. 

 

Your case seems to rest on the notion that safety has value, and I won't say that is completely untrue. However in a game with rewards, risk/reward becomes far more relevant. The lower damage and AOE caps on sentinels means they reap rewards appreciably more slowly than you can as a blaster (or brute, or scrapper, or stalker, or heck , probably even tank nowadays). That's what really matters to be quite honest. If safety were the paramount measure of power, phase shift would be in every build. 

[nihilii]

55 minutes ago, Rathulfr said:

Ah, this is the tired old "range is defense" argument then.  I'm not going to rehash all that here, as it has all been said before elsewhere.  We are at that impasse, then, and I will simply agree to disagree.

Melee enemies typically have a full melee attack chain and only 1 or 2 ranged blasts. Ranged enemies are obviously the same at range or in melee. Net result: some enemies deal less damage at range than in melee. The frequency and magnitude of this lowered damage is arguable, the existence of it is not.

It's fine to have a kneejerk reaction to the idea because it reminds you of days where Blasters were told to suck it up, but this has no relation to the topic of Sentinel survivability. It's also fine if you dislike procs and Sentinel epics specifically, and it's fine if you're OK with softcapped defenses through IOs and Clarion/Hybrid incarnates or amplifiers.

But surely, at some point we must realise our personal choices are just that, personal. Balancing the whole game around one's own playstyle might turn ATs to be balanced for the limited toolset we choose to restrict ourselves to; but it will inevitably break said balance for people willing to use the whole gamut.

I feel you pigeonholed yourself into a certain view of the game. It just so happens your preferred playstyle will make Blasters vastly superior to Sentinels. I don't see that as a balance issue.  I see that as you having found your calling when it comes to AT selection.

There's nothing wrong with the above, mind. I'm right at the other end of the spectrum compared to you. As a primarily solo/duo player who enjoys convenience and taking on the tough stuff, Fire Blasters simply don't deal enough extra damage to justify the survivability they lose compared to Sentinels. I say Fire Blasters because I can't even entertain any other primary, I need the sizeable advantage the Blaster version of Fire Blast comes with to even consider the tradeoff; and even then, it inevitably disappoints me.

 

So if I were to judge the entire game by my own choices, I would say decisively that Blasters are broken and need buffs!

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, drbuzzard said:

Your case seems to rest on the notion that safety has value, and I won't say that is completely untrue. However in a game with rewards, risk/reward becomes far more relevant. The lower damage and AOE caps on sentinels means they reap rewards appreciably more slowly than you can as a blaster (or brute, or scrapper, or stalker, or heck , probably even tank nowadays). That's what really matters to be quite honest. If safety were the paramount measure of power, phase shift would be in every build. 

If that's all there is to it, fine.

 

Go to Dark Astoria, run repeatable missions from Ephram at max diff, compare your gains on a maxed out Sent vs a maxed out Blaster.

 

I already know the outcome.

[drbuzzard]

Now unless I am missing something, you can tailor your targets of farming to make it safer on blasters and basically reap the same rewards (minus the 10 threads 1/day or 1 merit/day). 

 

You choose the highest risk to test for your reward. That's not exactly normal (or fire farms wouldn't really be a thing). Do it against non incarnate enemies on a council farm map ( to leave AE out of this), and I expect different results. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by drbuzzard

[oldskool]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Go to Dark Astoria...

compare your gains

[Wavicle]

34 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

If that's all there is to it, fine.

 

Go to Dark Astoria, run repeatable missions from Ephram at max diff, compare your gains on a maxed out Sent vs a maxed out Blaster.

 

I already know the outcome.

This is completely irrelevant.

The game is not, never has been, and should not be balanced around solo performance.

Go to DA on a TEAM and bring your Blaster in one mission and your Sentinel in the next. You should not be dieing enough on the Blaster to make the Sentinel contribute more overall and if you are there's a problem with your blaster.

[Wavicle]

This seems fair:

AoE=Blaster>Sentinel>Scrapper>Stalker

Single Target=Stalker>Scrapper>Blaster w/melee>Sentinel>Blaster w/o melee

Obviously not in every single case, but as a general way of looking at it.

Unless I am wrong that Scrapper does more single target than Blaster w/melee? I don't really know.

[Wavicle]

it is not quite analogous to the "range as defense" situation Blasters were in. It is however very similar to the situation Stalkers were originally in, the thought being that since they could placate and then AS again so safely they didn't need to be able to scrap it out more quickly. Just because they're safe doesn't mean their damage is high enough if that is their primary contribution in a team context.