Discussion about Leadership for Defenders

[Darkir]

8 hours ago, Frosticus said:

It would be interesting to see the stats on how many people take tough/weave vs maneuvers/tactics

 

You are right, but most people don't really seem to think about how they will play in a team, or what they will contribute to team success beyond dealing damage.

 

I"m always happy when I get on a team and see some leadership buffs stacking. It is a clear indication that the team will likely play well

I take maneuvers on almost every character I make. There is almost no reason not to take it. I would only consider not taking it on something like an SR/SD character or a Time/X/Soul defender (the team shouldn't need any more defense or tohit with a defender PB+Farsight). Often maneuvers/assault/tactics is the only buff that a brute/stalker/scrapper/tanker can give a team. You might as well take maneuvers to help yourself and your team. It really does make a difference, even on a team of 8 stalkers, if they all have maneuvers that is about 28% defense to all. That is crazy good and enough to make it so every stalker should be at the softcap for the most part. 

 

Tactics is fantastic as you are leveling and is far more effective at lower levels than assault. At 50 though, it is often redundant, but its still very good to increase the damage of snipes. I would say its debatable whether or not you take tactics over assault at 50. 

 

Assault is more powerset and build dependant, but it still stacks very well even on ATs with the weakest buffs. Again, a team of 8 stalkers all with assault is a 84% dmg buff to all. The problem here is more the endurance management as running maneuvers and assault will likely cost around .5-.6 end/s which is a lot. 

 

I'd always take maneuvers over assault if I have to choose. The effectiveness of defense stacking in this game is far more important to me than more damage. Remember you do 0 dps when you are dead.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Darkir

[Call Me Awesome]

You know, on my Defenders I generally try to find some slots for Tactics; Assault is of course a one slot power.  Maneuvers I'll either leave at the default slot (LOTG +7.5%) or if I can find slots I'll worry about other bonuses.

 

As for when, most often I grab the three powers in the 20's - 30's.  The benefit Leadership provides just to the Defender himself is worth the power choices... the rest of the team also getting the benefit is a bonus.  If you're lucky you'll have several teammates with the powers as well and you'll stack up to godly levels, but even alone it's a worthwhile investment.

[_NOPE_]

29 minutes ago, Call Me Awesome said:

The benefit Leadership provides just to the Defender himself is worth the power choices...

This is why I generally tend to pick Assault ASAP, because it help my Defender through his entire career, even if I'm solo-ing.

[Jacke]

On 3/9/2020 at 8:01 PM, Redlynne said:

Starting in the 20s and up, since those are the first levels where you aren't competing with primary/secondary power picks.

If you're going to take Maneuvers, you really want to 6 slot it.  In my opinion there are 2 best 6-slottings for Maneuvers, depending on the "needs" of the rest of your build.

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Personally, I'm of the opinion that Defenders ought to take 9 primary powers, 9 secondary powers, 3 leadership toggles ... and then have 3 power picks left over for travel power(s) and other pools.

 

But that's just me ... 😎

 

Great info, @Redlynne!  There's another slotting for Maneuvers for those going for more E/NE resistance:

 

4 Shield Wall (PvP set, has Resist+Teleport Resist Global, in PvE gives 10% Regen, 2.25% HP, 4.5% E/NE Resist), 1 LotG global (7.5% Recharge),

and for a 6-slotting, open (another Shield Wall gives 2.5% Damage, but often better to go for Reactive Defenses Scaling Resist Global Unique or the Kismet +ToHit Proc).

 

And I'm assuming you're overstating the case here for 6-slotting and going for all primary and secondary powers.

 

Even if no powers were almost completely excessively nerfed and situational to the point of being bad (Dark Pit for one), or have numbers and other factors that make them unworkable (slow activating cone attacks like Electron Haze, Fire Breath, Frost Breath, even Full Auto, worse after you're used to the best, Buckshot 🙂), picking which powers to take and which to skip, where to put the slots, and what to put in them to match what goals is the key to making good builds.

 

There's some powersets that demand taking 8 or 9 of the powers, like Super Reflexes (only the Tier 9 Elude is situational and many builds don't need what it gives as they've already got enough by the time Elude is available, but at least it's not 'Unstoppable' bad 🙂).  But I find making good builds or especially modifying existing builds to improve them means finding which powers can be dropped (or even whole power pools to allow another) and where slots can be removed, to allow other powers of better or different utility and improving some of them with more slots.  I often want to 6-slot powers, but finding where a build can work with 5 or less can move those slots to someplace they can do more.

 

I love Radiation Blast and I understand each power's use.  But I'm down to having just 5 powers (Neutrino Bolt, Irradiate, Proton Volley, Neutron Bomb, Atomic Blast), sometimes having Aim, as well as Blasters taking X-Ray Beam ('cause Blaster's (and Sentinel's) Neutrino Bolt isn't as good as what's on Defenders and Corruptors, as well as Blasters being able to use the first two primary attacks while mezzed), because it works and playing the toon better can often trump numeric differences.

 

Here's some examples from my Katana-Fiery Aura Brute.  Similar issues will apply to Defenders.

 

On my Brute, I recent respecced out of Build Up because it was of marginal improvement.  @Werner calculated a Brute running Assault instead gets the same damage benefit over time (as well so much more) and that marginal benefit is small, just about 6% of damage without either.  It's easier running the toon with one less click power to hit at the 'right' time.  I kept Fiery Aura's Fiery Embrace as it has a longer buff of a different nature and it needs to be clicked less often, but after reflection, I've planned another respec to drop it (but only after waiting a few days and reviewing the changes).

 

I also dropped Hasten as I could work with both the attack chain and remaining long recharge powers without it.  Hasten is also a power I prefer going without, as there's recharge buffs available from IO set bonuses, I tend not to take other powers from the Speed Pool, and having it needs to provide enough utility to make it worth locking up one of my 4 power pool choices.

 

On my Brute, to replace Speed Pool I picked...Leadership Pool!  Want to go without it if I can, but sometimes it is a good choice for any AT build and play if it can be made to work and does enough.

 

Maneuvering my Brute and using his attacks better can do more than 6% improvement, or even 12 or more.  Not having to worry about when to fire Build Up or Fiery Embrace I've decided will help my play.  Not having them allows me two power picks that I can use to make things better, sometimes other things I couldn't do otherwise.  I *love* boss-level stealth, so on toons without a stealth power in the primary or secondary sets, I almost always take Concealment Pool's Stealth.  Having that extra power pick means I can take Grant Invisibility.  Which means another LotG Recharge Reduction Global.  And when I'm on teams, I can give boss-level stealth to the *whole* team if we decide to use it.

[Redlynne]

6 minutes ago, Jacke said:

And I'm assuming you're overstating the case here for 6-slotting and going for all primary and secondary powers.

There's some powersets that demand taking 8 or 9 of the powers

It's true that some powersets are better for picking 8 instead of 9, and so on, but those are context dependent choices.  In terms of default starting assumptions, I prefer to start with 9 by 9 plus 3 Leadership and then start pruning back from there.  Some powersets and combinations will be more ... forgiving ... of that pruning (Elude, as you cited, is relatively superfluous in PvE) but that's something which is context dependent for that specific combination of powersets.  It also depends on what your "goals" are with your character.

 

But in general I start with a 9 by 9 plus 3 Leadership assumption for my own builds, and so far it's only my Tri-Form Kheldians who haven't adhered to that pattern (because form shifting detoggles powers other than the form power itself).  It makes for a decent starting assumption, I've found ... even if later decisions move the build (slightly) off that preferred ideal, because ... REASONS.

[Jacke]

2 hours ago, Redlynne said:

It also depends on what your "goals" are with your character.

Agreed; that's very important as well as context dependent.

 

 

Quote

But in general I start with a 9 by 9 plus 3 Leadership assumption for my own builds, and so far it's only my Tri-Form Kheldians who haven't adhered to that pattern (because form shifting detoggles powers other than the form power itself).  It makes for a decent starting assumption, I've found ... even if later decisions move the build (slightly) off that preferred ideal, because ... REASONS.

 

And you make that work very well indeed.

 

What I do is look at all 18 primary and secondary powers carefully.  Wonder when they'd be worth it (even Dark Pit 🙂), how they'd work together, and what they would need to be effective.  Like Cloak of Fear, which though nerfed horribly years ago can still work in the right build and not even force that build to be only situational.

 

But I also know I'm going to want to include powers from the pools (often Leadership) and the epic, likely more than 6, so that means some from the 18 have to not be chosen.

 

The only power that has to be taken is the Tier 1 in the secondary.  All else is the craft of making the build to fulfill your goals making the toon you want.

 

Both HEATs and VEATs are much different from other ATs.  They have the challenge of just fitting in their own primary and secondary powers.  Kheldians have 14 primary powers and 13 secondary powers, so at least 3 must be passed over and often more (so many long recharge powers almost certainly needs Hasten).  Gets more complex for Arachnos ATs, what with Bane versus Crab and Night Widow versus Fortunata.  Still working on getting these good enough. 🙂

Edited March 15, 2020 by Jacke

[Without_Pause]

I have a hard time thinking of what sets really need all 9 powers. There is also the issue of slots. I could skip one and pick up Hasten knowing I could simply slot it with two level 50 commons and have that be enough. 9-9-3 rule leaves very little choice in picking from Epics and more so since you need to have at least one power to get the other one you really need.

 

Oddly enough I rolled a Kin/sonic again and can see keeping Assault even after FS since it will he helpful for AVs. 

[oOStaticOo]

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd recommend a 9-9-3 either.  There is no way you can rotate through all of your attacks that fast.  I'd recommend 5 maybe 6 attacks at most.  Also some of the Primary Powers can be skipped as well.  At most I would probably recommend 8 from Primary and 6 (MAYBE 7) from Secondary.  You really do need to consider slotting and IO sets when it comes to builds.  If you have too many powers that need to be 6 slotted there is no way you will get them all maximized for efficiency.  I can always see skipping at least one of the Primary powers as it will usually be very situational upon usage.  I never try to take more than 5 attacks and at least the Aim or Build Up power in the Secondary.  After that it's all Power Pool and Epic Pool powers from there.

[Hjarki]

I have a slightly different take on the value of Leadership.

 

When I look at level 50, what I really see is that players have largely solved their own problems without your help. So if you're going to play a Force Field Defender, you shouldn't be doing it because you expect other people will need Defense buffs - you should be doing it because it's part of how you solve your problem with Defense. There are a very few areas where players aren't going to be able to reach the various caps on their own (-resistance, +damage, obscure defense/resistances like Toxic/Psi/End Drain/etc.). But most of what you provide is really about supporting yourself - the one player you know needs those buffs - rather than supporting other people.

 

So my decision about Leadership tends to devolve into asking some fairly specific questions. Do I need the Defense and Hit? Do I need the LotG slotting opportunities?

 

The fact that I can boost the abilities of others with these powers is potentially nice. But I don't ever expect them to have a meaningful impact in that respect.

 

5 hours ago, oOStaticOo said:

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd recommend a 9-9-3 either.  There is no way you can rotate through all of your attacks that fast.  I'd recommend 5 maybe 6 attacks at most.  Also some of the Primary Powers can be skipped as well.  At most I would probably recommend 8 from Primary and 6 (MAYBE 7) from Secondary.  You really do need to consider slotting and IO sets when it comes to builds.  If you have too many powers that need to be 6 slotted there is no way you will get them all maximized for efficiency.  I can always see skipping at least one of the Primary powers as it will usually be very situational upon usage.  I never try to take more than 5 attacks and at least the Aim or Build Up power in the Secondary.  After that it's all Power Pool and Epic Pool powers from there.

I tend to agree.

 

On a Defender Blast set, I'm normally going to have a 3 power single target rotation. Due to how much time needs to be spent on support set activities, this doesn't need to be a tight rotation like a Blasters but can have some slack time built in. Depending on power set, this 'single target' rotation might also include AE powers. At least two pool powers - Dominate and Char - make a frequent appearance in this three power rotation.

 

Beyond that, I'm likely to take the ultimate. I will usually take Aim (or its equivalent) as well.

 

Taken together, this means I usually take the one forced power as either a mule or an unslotted/unused power and usually a total of 5 powers from Blast set.

 

Such simple rules are obviously impossible for the diversity of support sets. However, I tend to take powers that buff my own defenses/resists/recharge/damage, resistance debuffs and (effective) damage powers. Ultimately, this ends up being between 5 - 7 powers including one of the two forced powers (which more often than not end up being mules rather than a core part of the build @50).

 

Basically, if it's not something I'll be using in virtually every fight - whether solo, group or league - I'm probably going to skip it.

[Jacke]

Striving for enough well-slotted powers for a good-enough ST and AoE rotation and making sure they're focus is important, as well which and how many powers varying widely between ATs and powerset pairings.  Example, Defender/Corruptor Radiation Blast, the ST rotation is just Neutrino Bolt with Proton Volley added in as NB is that fast.   But it isn't just having enough powers to fill a rotation.  Some powers are special, like Radiation Blast's Cosmic Burst.  This is aimed at killing bosses safely (assuming other threats are otherwise dealt with).  On fast recharge, two hits and even bosses are stunned until they drop.  On the other hand, changes to the game, faster play, more mobs, and effects resistant mobs makes some of those special powers not so necessary or even at times useful.

 

And just because most toons can solve most of their own needs for things like Defense doesn't necessarily mean they have (not everyone designs for the toughest build nor are they necessarily completed) or that they don't need more.  Builds with softcap EN Defense are harder for most toons and a lot of newer content has a lot of E attacks.  Softcap is 45% normally, but in Incarnate content it's more like 59%.  And unless Defense is backs by Defense Debuff Resistance, that Defense can often get stripped away (Romans do this a lot).  Only some melee toons like those with Super Reflexes and Shield Defense have access to enough DDR before Incarnate powers (and Ageless Radial-side Destiny).  So that extra Defense from a Force Field Defender can mean the difference in keeping enough Defense to stay upright.  And FF also has the T9 Force Bubble, which turns the Defender in Mr Plow to get all those mobs in one big pile for convenience. 🙂

[Peacemoon]

4 hours ago, Jacke said:

Striving for enough well-slotted powers for a good-enough ST and AoE rotation and making sure they're focus is important, as well which and how many powers varying widely between ATs and powerset pairings.  Example, Defender/Corruptor Radiation Blast, the ST rotation is just Neutrino Bolt with Proton Volley added in as NB is that fast.   But it isn't just having enough powers to fill a rotation.  Some powers are special, like Radiation Blast's Cosmic Burst.  This is aimed at killing bosses safely (assuming other threats are otherwise dealt with).  On fast recharge, two hits and even bosses are stunned until they drop.  On the other hand, changes to the game, faster play, more mobs, and effects resistant mobs makes some of those special powers not so necessary or even at times useful.

 

And just because most toons can solve most of their own needs for things like Defense doesn't necessarily mean they have (not everyone designs for the toughest build nor are they necessarily completed) or that they don't need more.  Builds with softcap EN Defense are harder for most toons and a lot of newer content has a lot of E attacks.  Softcap is 45% normally, but in Incarnate content it's more like 59%.  And unless Defense is backs by Defense Debuff Resistance, that Defense can often get stripped away (Romans do this a lot).  Only some melee toons like those with Super Reflexes and Shield Defense have access to enough DDR before Incarnate powers (and Ageless Radial-side Destiny).  So that extra Defense from a Force Field Defender can mean the difference in keeping enough Defense to stay upright.  And FF also has the T9 Force Bubble, which turns the Defender in Mr Plow to get all those mobs in one big pile for convenience. 🙂

Absolutely, and there is a huge game outside of incarnates and maxed out builds where people play without any set bonuses at all. Especially pre-40. So in addition to the argument that they’re still useful at max level content, they are also incredibly useful for lower levels and random groups. Something to really consider when deciding where to put powers, because some make hardly any difference until lower levels whilst others the difference will be huge. 

[Hjarki]

51 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

Absolutely, and there is a huge game outside of incarnates and maxed out builds where people play without any set bonuses at all. Especially pre-40. So in addition to the argument that they’re still useful at max level content, they are also incredibly useful for lower levels and random groups. Something to really consider when deciding where to put powers, because some make hardly any difference until lower levels whilst others the difference will be huge. 

Inarguably, there are a lot of people playing outside the framework of Incarnates/maxed out builds. However, discussions of such play tend to run afoul of two problems:

• Lack of clear guidelines. It's fairly easy to have a discussion about 'best possible builds'. But there's an endless set of possibilities for 'best possible builds under restrictions X, Y and Z'. Without first agreeing on what precise restrictions you're placing on builds, you can't really discuss them.
• Not terribly informative. I can tell you how a build will play at level 10. Or you could just go out and play for an hour or two to find out for yourself. A lot of the emphasis on discussing endgame builds comes from the fact that the effectiveness of a build once you've got all the pieces in place is difficult for people to predict from low level experience. Most people who are approaching a build from the standpoint of effectiveness really want to know about the complete arc of the game - and they don't want to invest significant amounts of time only to discover that the end of the arc isn't where they want to be.

Assuming you're not just playing with the same group of friends all the time, I think most players find it incredibly frustrating to play Hawkeye when everyone else around them is Iron Man and The Hulk - you're essentially just a spectator in someone else's game.

 

[Linea]

I recommend leadership for almost any build and AT, not just defenders.

 

However, I never pick powers nor slot powers.  I create builds as a whole.  It is my opinion that picking THIS power and slotting it THIS way would cause issues with many builds when the build is looked at as a whole.  That's not to say you can't start with the default slotting, but also don't be afraid to change default slotting either.  Even for powers that I almost always slot one particular way, there are always exceptions to the rule sooner or later.

 

Be aware there were some issues (maybe bugs) found with the bu proc and tactics.  I don't recall the issue so I don't know if it was reflected above.