Energy Blast and Knockback

[Solarverse]

On 3/22/2020 at 6:29 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i am a huge proponent for more options. In fact i created a thread very similar to this one awhile back. I also was using the KB-KD ios. It was brought to my attention if i bothered to learn how to use KB to my advantage changing to KD becomes a moot point. So i rolled an Energy Blaster and played it exclusively for 2 months. The experience of using KB during that time increased my knowledge of how KB worked. The knowledge i gained changed my perspective on how KB should work. Once my perspective changed so did my opinion. Using KB appropriately is a skill on its own. It takes time patience and practice. I no longer care if they change KB-KD or any variation because i KNOW how to use it. Such changes would have little effect on me. However, there have been multiple cases where my KB will knock a foe into a wall (mostly caves) and it becomes very difficult to kill a foe trapped in a wall. That needs to be fixed. 

Energy/Energy Blasters have been my main since day one of this game. My very first character was an Energy/Energy Blaster, and my first character on Homecoming was the same thing and still today remains my main to this day. Now that my "creds" are out of the way, I'll get to my point, lol.

 

First, Kudos for learning how to use Knock back to the team's advantage. Most players do not from my personal experience and often I have to ask myself, "Is this guy just trolling the team?" So any player who uses Knock Back well, gets no complaints from me. I can tell the difference from a well played knock back player and a player who uses knock back carelessly. So again, Kudos to you.

 

Prior to the KB to KD IO implementation, playing in that way was my ONLY option. I learned very quickly how to play my Energy/EM Blaster well on teams.  Back in those days you were kicked from teams for making so much as a single mistake. So I had to be on my A-Game every time I played and had to be careful to not so much as make a single mistake. Once KB to KD IO's came out it relieved that pressure, big time. Because of KB to KD IO I no longer have to take the time to maneuver my Blaster around a mob to line my attacks up against a wall. I no longer had to Hover above a mob (in the event no wall was nearby) and aim straight down so it knocks them down instead of back. I am grateful for KB to KD IO's because with the current speed that players kill mobs these days, I feel maneuvering around these mobs to carefully use an AoE or Cone is time wasted that could be better spent firing off my AoE's and Cones from any advantage point on the map that I just happen to be at. Now I no longer feel like I am wasting time carefully setting up my attacks, and honestly, it feels amazing!

 

So for me personally, I still prefer the KB to KD IO over the time spent maneuvering my Blaster around mobs so that my Knock Back doesn't negatively impact a team. I suspect you may eventually reach the same conclusion I have...and if not, I am still very grateful you are one of those players who know how to use KB.  🙂

[Solarverse]

On 3/23/2020 at 12:37 AM, Noyjitat said:

Just fuck all the nerfs already.

Amen to that!

[Solarverse]

On 3/23/2020 at 3:25 AM, Outrider_01 said:

Goes both ways.  You don't like knockback, solo or specifically not waste your time by announcing before hand "those with KB need to apply".  BOOM!!!  Headshot to the problem, face it before it happens; don't bitch later.

 

That was sarcasm, as you point out.  Easy mode is easy mode, not like Fireball is really gonna kill anything but minions with one hit.  Now targeted AoE cones with KB, simply reduce the magnitude and problem solved, they cause more headaches then single target.

 

-crutch

-crutch

-crutch

Doesn't solve anything, bandaid fix for player percieved problems when KD actually doesn't break the game.  Break as in either OP unbalance or completely useless like Intangible powers.

 

Learn to improve your game play, solo, or suck it up.  As much as it destroys your enjoyment it also destroys their enjoyment, learn to improve as someone said above or just stay away from KB.  Believe me, if I had power I would be abusive if I so much as see dumb ass names or ugly ass costumes, I can deal with powers or stupid actions but looking at passive dumb eyesores drive me up the wall.

 

And it turned into a disaster, done with thread as every is gonna keep bickering or showing their point of view.  You got mine, please don't tell me yours as it won't change.

That's a bit of a harsh opinion there. Telling people that them not liking KB is a crutch is no different than people who hate KB telling others they can't use it. It's simply two different playstyles. Neither playstyle is right over the other, but they do not mix well either. Neither is a "crutch" and neither is a wrong point of view. One style utilizes AoE damage to its fullest potential, the other utilizes crowd control to its fullest potential, it just so happens one hinders the goal of the other.

 

I understand you have the "suck it up" stance on this, but honestly, who has the right to tell the other to "suck it up" here? The KB players, or the KD players? Just something to think about.

[MunkiLord]

4 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I understand you have the "suck it up" stance on this, but honestly, who has the right to tell the other to "suck it up" here? The KB players, or the KD players? Just something to think about.

The way I generally see it is my experience and my actions are the only things I have any sort of control over. So if either side is causing an issue, I just leave the team. If the drama is annoying enough I'll do it mid mission or task force. It's also been my experience that the people complaining about KB generally cause almost all the drama. Unless the KB usage is way the f*** over the top, it's generally not very noticeable at all. 

 

I say this as someone that almost never plays as KB characters myself, mainly Scrappers, and my Blasters live in melee almost exclusively.

[Outrider_01]

15 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I understand you have the "suck it up" stance on this, but honestly, who has the right to tell the other to "suck it up" here? The KB players, or the KD players? Just something to think about.

What I try to say, but I am very bad at it.  I am just more tolerable of stupid vs being ordered how to play a game.  Game has always been easy, knockback isn't really a factor on low hit point stuff that's going to die quick unless you are getting blobbed by Malta Sappers. 

[Saiyajinzoningen]

So here's a quick faq on how to use KB pretty easily

 

1. Single target KB is the easiest to learn and deal with. Not usually a problem if you mess up a little with your positioning because A. your power only affects a single target and B. Most targets especially stronger foes resist KB fairly well.

2. Aoe KB is that main culprit most folk complain about cause when you don't position properly enemies go everywhere. (This post is already long enough so lets just use Energy blast as the primary example since its loaded with soo much KB.) The 2 main culprits are [explosive blast] & [nova]. Place the overwhelming force set in [explosive blast] and you turn its kb into kd without losing ANY dmg. Nova is even easier, slot as normal and when used, minions should die instantly (use [aim/build up] prior) and anything strong enough to survive is usually strong enough to resist KB.

3. Hover/fly is your friend remember all KB becomes KD when your shots come from above.

 

 

[Rathulfr]

(Copied and pasted from a previous post.)

 

Much of the concerns about knockback are overblown, and one can completely ameliorate most concerns by simply being a little more thoughtful about it.  As a once and current Energy Blaster, here are my simple rules for managing knockback on Energy Blast:

 

1. Put KB-to-KD IOs in your AoEs.  You don't need KB-to-KD IOs on all of your attacks.  KB is fine on single-target attacks, especially when soloing: it's a form of damage mitigation/control.  KB is a headache on AoE attacks, as it affects you and your team.  Therefore, only your AoE powers really need to the KB2KD IOs: Energy Torrent, Explosive Blast, and Nova.  I usually skip Energy Torrent (I hate cones), so I have the KB2KD IOs in the latter two, only.
2. You knock it, you kill it.  If you do keep KB on your single-target attacks, then you take full responsibility for your KB targets.  Don't KB and run: stay on target until it's down.
3. Pay attention to your targets.  Don't KB buff/debuff anchors.  Don't KB tank/brute targets.  Focus on picking off the stragglers or those menacing the other squishies.
4. Pay attention to your backstop.  What's behind your intended target: a wall or a ledge?  Try to KB into solid objects, or towards the rest of the team.  You don't necessarily have to line up every target like a billiard shot, but do try be aware of what's going on around the targets and elsewhere on the field of battle.
5. Hover over and blast down.  Hover is the Energy Blast-er's best friend.  Get above the fray and KB down into the floor, if possible.  Hover also offers great mobility, a little defense, and a slot for LotG +Recharge and/or Kismet +ToHit.

 

Have fun and happy blasting!

Edited March 25, 2020 by Rathulfr

[Naraka]

On 3/24/2020 at 1:53 PM, Solarverse said:

Energy/Energy Blasters have been my main since day one of this game. My very first character was an Energy/Energy Blaster, and my first character on Homecoming was the same thing and still today remains my main to this day. Now that my "creds" are out of the way, I'll get to my point, lol.

 

First, Kudos for learning how to use Knock back to the team's advantage. Most players do not from my personal experience and often I have to ask myself, "Is this guy just trolling the team?" So any player who uses Knock Back well, gets no complaints from me. I can tell the difference from a well played knock back player and a player who uses knock back carelessly. So again, Kudos to you.

 

Prior to the KB to KD IO implementation, playing in that way was my ONLY option. I learned very quickly how to play my Energy/EM Blaster well on teams.  Back in those days you were kicked from teams for making so much as a single mistake. So I had to be on my A-Game every time I played and had to be careful to not so much as make a single mistake. Once KB to KD IO's came out it relieved that pressure, big time. Because of KB to KD IO I no longer have to take the time to maneuver my Blaster around a mob to line my attacks up against a wall. I no longer had to Hover above a mob (in the event no wall was nearby) and aim straight down so it knocks them down instead of back. I am grateful for KB to KD IO's because with the current speed that players kill mobs these days, I feel maneuvering around these mobs to carefully use an AoE or Cone is time wasted that could be better spent firing off my AoE's and Cones from any advantage point on the map that I just happen to be at. Now I no longer feel like I am wasting time carefully setting up my attacks, and honestly, it feels amazing!

 

So for me personally, I still prefer the KB to KD IO over the time spent maneuvering my Blaster around mobs so that my Knock Back doesn't negatively impact a team. I suspect you may eventually reach the same conclusion I have...and if not, I am still very grateful you are one of those players who know how to use KB.  🙂

So you're an Energy Blast vet, hm?

 

A bit suspect with the advice.  I say that namely because the obvious advice is absent.

 

So you don't like to position yourself to "use KB good" because it hampers your personal performance so KB>KD....

 

My advice would be...don't.  Don't reposition.  Just use situational awareness.  For example:

 

Scenario #1: Your team is efficiently grouping foes up and AoEing them down.  No other knowledge.

~~ Just use ST blasts.  If the team is already steamrolling through spawns, you don't need to add more AoE.  And anyone complaining that you're knocking back your target and killing them is obviously just complaining because they want to complain about something.  Alternatively, you can wait to use your AoEs after a lot of the other team members have saturated the spawn with damage.

 

Scenario #2: You have teammembers who use toggle debuffs.

~~Don't target the anchor.  Simple as that.

 

Scenario #3: A controller/dominator on the team is using AoE immobilizes.

~~You can use AoE KB so long as the immobilize has -KB in them.  The ones that don't are Gravity, Electric and Dark, I think (also Mind and Illusion don't have immobilize at all).  Also, the -KB only lasts for 15sec.

 

Scenario #4: Aggro management is limited and survival of the team is tough.

~~Use your KB more for mitigation.  Just be mindful to not KB foes into un-aggro'ed spawns, off platforms and such.  Use your KB to give the melee's breathing room. Use the KB to keep foes off of squishies.  Keep yourself guarded.

 

All of these circumstances don't require a wall or special positioning, just paying attention and adapting to the situation at hand...oh and self restraint.  That's probably like telling people to stay home so you don't spread disease.  Yes, even you can NOT click that button when it comes off of recharge because it's not needed.  I bet if it were possible, some would put all their powers on auto and just run around lol

[Solarverse]

21 minutes ago, Naraka said:

So you're an Energy Blast vet, hm?

 

A bit suspect with the advice.  I say that namely because the obvious advice is absent.

 

So you don't like to position yourself to "use KB good" because it hampers your personal performance so KB>KD....

 

My advice would be...don't.  Don't reposition.  Just use situational awareness.  For example:

 

Scenario #1: Your team is efficiently grouping foes up and AoEing them down.  No other knowledge.

~~ Just use ST blasts.  If the team is already steamrolling through spawns, you don't need to add more AoE.  And anyone complaining that you're knocking back your target and killing them is obviously just complaining because they want to complain about something.  Alternatively, you can wait to use your AoEs after a lot of the other team members have saturated the spawn with damage.

 

Scenario #2: You have teammembers who use toggle debuffs.

~~Don't target the anchor.  Simple as that.

 

Scenario #3: A controller/dominator on the team is using AoE immobilizes.

~~You can use AoE KB so long as the immobilize has -KB in them.  The ones that don't are Gravity, Electric and Dark, I think (also Mind and Illusion don't have immobilize at all).  Also, the -KB only lasts for 15sec.

 

Scenario #4: Aggro management is limited and survival of the team is tough.

~~Use your KB more for mitigation.  Just be mindful to not KB foes into un-aggro'ed spawns, off platforms and such.  Use your KB to give the melee's breathing room. Use the KB to keep foes off of squishies.  Keep yourself guarded.

 

All of these circumstances don't require a wall or special positioning, just paying attention and adapting to the situation at hand...oh and self restraint.  That's probably like telling people to stay home so you don't spread disease.  Yes, even you can NOT click that button when it comes off of recharge because it's not needed.  I bet if it were possible, some would put all their powers on auto and just run around lol

All very good advice.  Yes, I practice much of what is mentioned above, but the info is solid and I appreciate your additions to the topic. Thank you.

[EmmySky]

On 3/21/2020 at 9:08 AM, Anubys said:

PROBLEM: Energy Blast is a fun, flashy set that gets an extremely bad rap when playing in groups because of its knockback mechanic. To avoid team mate aggro, the player can slot a KB->KD proc, but this will reduce damage potential, especially in Sentinels, who usually shore up their dmg output by slotting up damage procs. 
 

SOLUTION: Give Energy Blast (across all ATs) a toggle power similar to Dual Pistols or Staff Fighting, with varying secondary effects and buffs. This gives players the freedom to play their flashy energy blast/ character the way they want depending on the circumstances, and reduces teammate aggro.
 

First Toggle: Knockback!
Gives a alight damage buff or adds just a bit of smashing damage as a reward for using regular knockback, similar to fire ammo for DP. 
 

Second Toggle: Knockup!

Swaps knockback for knockup. There would be no added damage buff for this option. Knockup is preferable because like knockback, it is flashier and keeps mobs off their feet longer than knockdown. This would be the “default” behavior for Energy Blast until the toggle power that unlocks these three options is taken. 
 

Third Toggle: Knockdown!

Swaps knockback for knockdown. Because knockdown doesn’t utilize ragdoll effects, mobs are usually back in action pretty quick. But, they have a small chance (around 6-12% chance) to be CONFUSED (or insert other status effect, like dazed or terrorized) because they smacked their noggins. 

I actually like where you're going with this solution.  Using enhancements gets tedious if you want to switch back and forth from KB to KD and back again.  Not to mention it is costing you a slot.  Also, instead of teams kicking someone for using KB they could just politely ask the KBer to switch it and its easy to do.

 

This solutions seems to give the most control to the player.  A quick and simple way to switch from one to the other without carrying buckets of unslotters and without costing the slot in the first place.